agie95 said:

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Reform Judaism is a social club more than anything else. It is basically a Jewish church.

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So what about Orthodox Jews who do not believe Yeshua is the Messiah? And it is starting to be a very small number of people that you think have it "right".

And edited to add that the Christian Church spends a lot more money, does more mission work, charitable work, than most groups. So it is much more than just a "social club" imho.

If only you had a heart like David...he loved the Torah.

The Torah of Adonai is perfect, restoring the soul. Psalm 19:8

The mitzvot of Adonai are pure, giving light to the eyes. v9b

They are more desirable than gold, yes, more than much pure gold! They are sweeter than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb. v11


Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the Torah of Adonai. Psalm 119:1

Happy are those who keep His testimonies, who seek Him with a whole heart, who also do no injustice, but walk in His ways. v3

ow can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to Your word. v9


I guess David was wrong. He just didn't know the Messiah and how it would all play out.


The Messiah did not come to start a new religion. There is not one prophecy, not one that says so. There is not one prophesy that says the Torah will stopped being followed. In fact, prophet after prophet said the opposite.



Ezekiel 37:24-28 - My servant David will be king over them. They will all have One Shepherd. They will walk in My ordinances and observe My rulings and do them. 25 They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your ancestors lived. They will live therethey, their children and their children's children, forever, and My servant David will be their prince forever. 26 I will cut a covenant of shalom with themit will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will give to them and multiply them. I will set up My Sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling-place will be over them. I will be their God and they will be My people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am Adonai who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever.'"

This is basically what each prophet said....God will gather up His people and they will follow His Torah. Christianity makes up a lot of junk.

Tomorrow is a Shabbat, so I won't be on for a few days.

What does Christianity "make up"?

And edited to add why will you not answer my question about Jews who do not believe in Yeshua? For the record, I think God saves every Jew because they are His chosen people.

So when did Paul or Peter preach on the Torah?

And what is still very unclear is how does this version of the Messianic take account for 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple? Its impact on a law approach and priesthood seem so obvious. Has this been covered? It is after all one of the most persuasive things about the `Christian take' that the Old was superseded by a New. It even manifested physically to the land and services.

AgLiving06 said:

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I ready exactly what you posted.

You claim that Paul favored the "doer of the Law." You went so far as to bold it.

You missed where Paul pointed out that only the sinless should "do the Law."

You've chosen to die sinful in the Law. We are choosing to live in Jesus. Paul made the same decision we did.

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Even though we are redeemed and forgiven, should we continue sinning so that Christ's forgiveness / God's glory might increase?

By no means.

Die to your sin. Live in Christ.

k2aggie07 said:

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Sigh. You just can't see it.

No one is jettisoning the Law. Christ didn't abolish it, He fulfilled it, He elevated it. It's not about what you eat, or what you wear, it is about your heart. Eating and drinking and associating with foreigners doesn't condemn you.

Righteousness is defined by Christ, because He is our Righteousness and the source of all Good things. Not the Law.

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Address the issues I said instead of completely ignoring them:

Not one prophecy states the Messiah will fulfill the Torah so you don't have to.

Not one prophecy states the Messiah will start another religion.

In fact every prophet states the exact opposite than what you stated:

Ezekiel 37 - teaches all about the reunification of the two kingdoms. V24b "They will walk in My ordinances and observe My rulings and do them"

There has never been a reunification of the two kingdoms. This has yet to happen.

Ezekiel 36:24-27 - "'For I will take you from the nations, gather you out of all the countries and bring you back to your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean from all your uncleanness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover I will give you a new heart. I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the stony heart from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Ruach within you. Then I will cause you to walk in My laws, so you will keep My rulings and do them.

Jeremiah is all about warning the people. Then comes Jeremiah 31, where he tells about the "New Covenant" that he will make with Israel and Judah....not Gentiles, not pagans, but Jews. He will place the Torah within them and forgive their iniquity. All will know who God is and no one will need to teach others. This covenant has not started yet.

Jeremiah 32 - "See, I will gather them out of all the countries, where I have driven them in My anger, My fury, and great wrath, and I will bring them back to this place and cause them to dwell securely. 38 They will be My people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them one heart and one way, so they may fear Me forever; for their good and for their children after them.

40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never turn away from doing good for them. I will put My fear in their hearts, so that they will not depart from Me.

So much for no longer having fear of God b/c we are sons. Not having fear b/c of sins is such a loaded bunch of bull.

Jeremiah 33 - And the word of Adonai came to Jeremiah, saying, 20 thus says Adonai: "If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that day and night would not be at in their appointed time, 21 only then may My covenant be broken with My servant David, that he would not have a son to reign on his throne, and the Levitical kohanim would not be My ministers.

Well, so much for the abolishing of the Levitical priesthood.

Isaiah 2:It will come to pass in the last days
that the mountain of Adonai's House
will stand firm as head of the mountains
and will be exalted above the hills.
So all nations will flow to it.
3 Then many peoples will go and say:
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of Adonai,
to the House of the God of Jacob!
Then He will teach us His ways,
and we will walk in His paths."
For Torah will go forth from Zion
and the word of Adonai from Jerusalem.

The Torah, God's word will go forth!!! Micah 4 says the same thing. THe last 4 lines are what is called parallelism. His ways and His paths are Torah. His word is Torah. Zion and Jerusalem are the same place.


Isaiah 56 - Also the foreigners who join themselves to Adonai, to minister to Him,
and to love the Name of Adonai,
and to be His servants
all who keep from profaning Shabbat,
and hold fast to My covenant
7 these I will bring to My holy mountain,
and let them rejoice in My House of Prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be acceptable on My altar.
For My House will be called
a House of Prayer for all nations."
8 Adonai Elohim,
who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
"I will gather still others to him,
to those already gathered."

All foreigers who join themselves to God, who KEEP FROM PROFANING THE SHABBAT!!! they will be brought to God's mountain, to His house of prayer. They will be gathered along with Israel!!!


Zechariah 8 is all about bringing Israel back. Towards the end Zechariah speaks about turning the fasts into joy and people from the nations will go to Christians to want to get close to God.......no no no.

He says people from all the nations will grab the corners of a Jews garment....tzitzit (Numbers 15:37-39) and say:

" 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"

Kind of interesting, no? Why would God have Zechariah say this if the Torah wasn't going to be followed any longer. It was fulfilled!!!! Yet, people from the nations are going to grab the corner of a Jew's garment, grab his tzitzit to get closer to God.

And there is always Moses who wrote this:

Deuteronomy 30 - "Now when all these things come upon youthe blessing and the curse that I have set before youand you take them to heart in all the nations where Adonai your God has banished you, 2 and you return to Adonai your God and listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you todayyou and your childrenwith all your heart and with all your soul, 3 then Adonai your God will bring you back from captivity and have compassion on you, and He will return and gather you from all the peoples where Adonai your God has scattered you.

When is God going to bring Israel back from the nations after the blessings and curses that He has caused them? When we return to God, listen to His voice according to ALL of the commandments with all of our heart and soul. This should bring back thoughts to Deut. 6 and the Shema. Loving God with all of your heart and soul is following the commandments.

God continues v9b-10 - For Adonai will again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your fathers 10 when you listen to the voice of Adonai your God, to keep His mitzvot and His statutes that are written in this scroll of the Torah, when you turn to Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Again, when you turn to God with all of your heart and soul, keeping ALL of the commandments of God that are written in the Torah.

Continuing 11-14 - "For this mitzvah that I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in the heavens, that you should say, 'Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us, and have us hear it so we may do it?' 13 Nor is it across the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross over for us to the other side of the sea and get it for us, and have us hear it so we may do it?' 14 No, the word is very near to youin your mouth and in your heart, to do it.

This is what Paul is quoting in Romans 10. This is what Paul is alluding to, to following all of the commandments.

So when people say that the Messiah fulfilled the commandments so you don't have to do them anymore, they don't know what they are talking about. For right after He said He came to fulfill, He said anyone who teaches not to do them will be least in the kingdom. Therefore, you cannot conclude that we should continue in the commandments.

If Yeshua did fulfill the commandments, then why does a Christian need to love, honor their parents, etc. Are these all not part of the Torah that Yeshua supposedly fulfilled? Prophecy after prophecy speaks about the two kingdoms coming back together and keeping Torah. To think that Yeshua contradicted the prophets is laughable and unBiblical. Yeshua would never contradict God or the Prophets. Paul did not contradict God or the prophets.

Be like David. Have a heart like David. Learn to love the Torah, its loving God.

Those are nothing but strawmen. Christ didn't fulfill the law so we don't have to or start another religion.

Christ fulfilled the law so that in Him we can fulfill it in spirit and truth. Christ didn't start another religion, it revealed the truth, it completed the revelation. There is no way anyone can read Christ's words and believe that before His Incarnation and ministry that the fullness of truth was available to men.

AgLiving06 said:

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agie95 said:

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This analogy shows that you really don't read what I post. You really don't read the Bible either. Paul never taught against Torah. Those were the lies that he was going against. Acts 21, 23, 24, 25 all dispel the myth that Paul was teaching against Torah.

My theology is thorough and sound. I do not throw anything up to see what sticks. It is what it is.

The flesh goes against the Torah.

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I ready exactly what you posted.

You claim that Paul favored the "doer of the Law." You went so far as to bold it.

You missed where Paul pointed out that only the sinless should "do the Law."

You've chosen to die sinful in the Law. We are choosing to live in Jesus. Paul made the same decision we did.

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You don't understand. I am not saying you didn't read it, I am saying you didn't read it. You didn't read it to understand.

Your statements are contradictory. Paul always taught to follow the Torah.

Acts 21:19-20 - After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

That can be read in a couple different ways. Regardless of how you interpret this, it shows that the elders and Paul were excited about a group of people who were believing in the Messiah AND were all zealous for the Torah. Then, Paul was willing to pay for himself and 4 others to go through the Nazarite Vow to prove he still walked according to Torah.

titan said:

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And what is still very unclear is how does this version of the Messianic take account for 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple? Its impact on a law approach and priesthood seem so obvious. Has this been covered? It is after all one of the most persuasive things about the `Christian take' that the Old was superseded by a New. It even manifested physically to the land and services.

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So, do you think there were those in 586BC when the 1st Temple fell that taught the same thing? Being driven from the land and losing the Temple was one of the curses for not following Torah. When God brings back His people, Yeshua will build a Third Temple and sacrifices will be done again.

Technically, the new hasn't even started yet.

agie95 said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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agie95 said:

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This analogy shows that you really don't read what I post. You really don't read the Bible either. Paul never taught against Torah. Those were the lies that he was going against. Acts 21, 23, 24, 25 all dispel the myth that Paul was teaching against Torah.

My theology is thorough and sound. I do not throw anything up to see what sticks. It is what it is.

The flesh goes against the Torah.

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I ready exactly what you posted.

You claim that Paul favored the "doer of the Law." You went so far as to bold it.

You missed where Paul pointed out that only the sinless should "do the Law."

You've chosen to die sinful in the Law. We are choosing to live in Jesus. Paul made the same decision we did.

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You don't understand. I am not saying you didn't read it, I am saying you didn't read it. You didn't read it to understand.

Your statements are contradictory. Paul always taught to follow the Torah.

Acts 21:19-20 - After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

That can be read in a couple different ways. Regardless of how you interpret this, it shows that the elders and Paul were excited about a group of people who were believing in the Messiah AND were all zealous for the Torah. Then, Paul was willing to pay for himself and 4 others to go through the Nazarite Vow to prove he still walked according to Torah.

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Correction, your belief structure starts with the Torah, so you have to make the incorrect assumption that Paul only taught the Torah.

A Christian's belief structure starts with Jesus. We read the Bible knowing he is "the Way, the Truth and the Life."

Paul's own words say he boasts in Jesus, not the Torah.

k2aggie07 said:

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Those are nothing but strawmen. Christ didn't fulfill the law so we don't have to or start another religion.

Christ fulfilled the law so that in Him we can fulfill it in spirit and truth. Christ didn't start another religion, it revealed the truth, it completed the revelation. There is no way anyone can read Christ's words and believe that before His Incarnation and ministry that the fullness of truth was available to men.

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The fact is there is prophecy that counters all that you profess. Christians need to deal with this b/c it exposes Christianity as the lie that it is.

Yes, Christianity is a new religion. An idolatry religion for that matter. Christianity teaches that some of the Torah, the moral, should still be followed. Yet, you are saying the Messiah fulfilled the Torah so that in Him we can fulfill it in spirit and truth. Then there is this sin thing. If sin still exists, then there must a physical aspect of following Torah. For the definition of sin is not following Torah. There is no new definition.

What you are teaching is no where in the prophets. God revealed everything to His prophets:

For the Lord Adonai, will do nothing,
unless He has revealed His counsel
to His servants the prophets. Amos 3:7

If you really want a discussion, start producing support from the actual Bible. There is a way to read if you read from a Hebrew mindset.

Wow, I believe you now.

Try supporting your answer with in context verses. Otherwise you comments are typical Christian dribble.

agie95 said:

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titan said:

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And what is still very unclear is how does this version of the Messianic take account for 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple? Its impact on a law approach and priesthood seem so obvious. Has this been covered? It is after all one of the most persuasive things about the `Christian take' that the Old was superseded by a New. It even manifested physically to the land and services.

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So, do you think there were those in 586BC when the 1st Temple fell that taught the same thing? Being driven from the land and losing the Temple was one of the curses for not following Torah. When God brings back His people, Yeshua will build a Third Temple and sacrifices will be done again.

Technically, the new hasn't even started yet.

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What was the point of Yeshua then, if you believe sacrifices will resume whenever the Third Temple is built?

He DID reveal it all through His prophets. Better yet, He came Himself to teach the Apostles. Then, He gave His Spirit to personally lead and guide the Church. Your interpretation basically suggests that He is a very bad guide and Shepherd and has been doing a terrible job to pious people who call upon His Name.

The point of Yeshua was to pay for our sentence of death. All sacrifices before and after all point to Him.

It is not just my belief that sacrifices will resume. This is from the prophets. For example, read Ezekiel 44-46.

Quote:

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Where is it that the Messiah was going to come and fulfill the Torah (no matter how you want to say it, that you no longer need to abide in the Torah)?

Where is this different role of the Spirit since Ezekiel gives the role that you want to dispute?

Where is it that the church replaces Israel? You didn't say it, but you said it.

Back up your beliefs with support. Not so-called church fathers. Show me the Bible.

That is all great, but you rarely provide support. Scripture doesn't say what you think it says. It does matter. Obviously, I have changed my view before. I just need support from the Bible which you have never provided.

You do have the faith of the church fathers...not the real fathers - Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

agie95 said:

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Wow, I believe you now.

Try supporting your answer with in context verses. Otherwise you comments are typical Christian dribble.

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Btw, to answer you question on Acts 21 (since you're avoiding the discussion on Romans).

What you contend is the proof that Paul followed the Law is actually Jews accusing Paul of not following the Law:

Acts 21:21-22 - 21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.


Paul certainly does the acts that the Jews are to try and ease the tension. But that doesn't even last 7 days:

Acts 21:27-28 - 27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching everyone everywhere against the people and the law and this place. Moreover, he even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."


So now, not only are the Jews accusing him of now following the Law, they are also accusing him much more seriously of defiling the Temple.

But even after all the Jews in Jerusalem accuse him of not following the Law, you will say he did.

BTW...when it came to the gentiles, James (the Local Bishop) still confirms that Gentiles do not need to follow it:

Acts 21:25: But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled,[d] and from sexual immorality."

So again, given the opportunity to tell gentiles to follow the Law, James (and Paul) both choose a different option.

Throw Philippians 2:5-11 in for good measure.

agie95 said:

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The point of Yeshua was to pay for our sentence of death.

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If Christ was a mere manifestation like a burning bush, just a gollum or fodder for cannon fire... what sort of sacrifice is that? No real hardship in sending that to death.

agie95 said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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k2aggie07
Those are nothing but strawmen. Christ didn't fulfill the law so we don't have to or start another religion.

Christ fulfilled the law so that in Him we can fulfill it in spirit and truth. Christ didn't start another religion, it revealed the truth, it completed the revelation. There is no way anyone can read Christ's words and believe that before His Incarnation and ministry that the fullness of truth was available to men.

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The fact is there is prophecy that counters all that you profess. Christians need to deal with this b/c it exposes Christianity as the lie that it is.

Yes, Christianity is a new religion. An idolatry religion for that matter. Christianity teaches that some of the Torah, the moral, should still be followed. Yet, you are saying the Messiah fulfilled the Torah so that in Him we can fulfill it in spirit and truth. Then there is this sin thing. If sin still exists, then there must a physical aspect of following Torah. For the definition of sin is not following Torah. There is no new definition.

What you are teaching is no where in the prophets. God revealed everything to His prophets:

For the Lord Adonai, will do nothing,
unless He has revealed His counsel
to His servants the prophets. Amos 3:7

If you really want a discussion, start producing support from the actual Bible. There is a way to read if you read from a Hebrew mindset.

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The biggest problem is a more basic one. The Christian religion in essentials is set by 100 AD. There is no way they could have gone off the rails that fast while all the witnesses and participants and those that hear them are running around.

And its also hard to believe God would take so little action to put it back on track in those early days if so. The Holy Spirit appears rather absent if missing so early. That's one of the more nagging things about this whole idea of trying to imply the initial take of Peter and Paul regarding Gentiles was wrong. Imo.

I'll ask again but you'll never answer - when was your sect founded? And by whom? And in what city?

Right? How can the Law be a Who? And how can something that exists in the form of God be merely the Law? And how can a thing, the Law exist in the form of God? And how can something that is not God have being equal to God as something within its grasp?

k2aggie07 said:

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I'll ask again but you'll never answer - when was your sect founded? And by whom? And in what city?

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I have answered. My sect is the same as the apostles and Paul. Founded by Yeshua HaMashiach. Galilee.