agie95 said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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I'll ask again but you'll never answer - when was your sect founded? And by whom? And in what city?

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I have answered. My sect is the same as the apostles and Paul. Founded by Yeshua HaMashiach. Galilee.

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And you have an unbroken chain of presbyters or bishops?

agie95 said:

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k2aggie07 said:

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I'll ask again but you'll never answer - when was your sect founded? And by whom? And in what city?

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I have answered. My sect is the same as the apostles and Paul. Founded by Yeshua HaMashiach. Galilee.

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Sweet. I just assumed that your sect taught that Gentile converts had to be physically circumcised. But, since you are the same sect as Paul, then that must not be the case.

k2aggie07 said:

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This should be an easy start. How do you reconcile Malachi 1:11 with Deuteronomy 12:5-7? I see this as a prophetic revelation of the Eucharistic sacrifice instituted by Christ Himself, and fulfilled all over the nations by Christians.

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I have asked for support of your beliefs and you are asking me about my beliefs again?

This does nothing to prove your point.

Where is it said the the Torah will be fulfilled in a manner that we are doing it spiritually or whatever you believe?

Where is the proof that the church replaces Israel?

Let me help.

Deuteronomy 12:5-7

Quote:

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5 But you are to seek the place the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; 6 there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. 7 There, in the presence of the Lord your God, you and your families shall eat and shall rejoice in everything you have put your hand to, because the Lord your God has blessed you.

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Malachi 1:11

Quote:

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My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty.

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K2 posits that that these 2 verses combine to clearly create a prophetic revelation of the Eucharistic sacrifice instituted by Christ himself, and fulfilled all over the nations by Christians.

Since your beliefs clearly contradict this, how does your exegesis somehow exclude the Lord's Supper?


I would like to know how your exegesis somersaults around the clear nature of Christ explained here in Philippians 2:

Quote:

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In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

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Knowing that God the Father acknowledges Jesus as His son (with whom He is well pleased) at the place of his baptism. (a baptism which leads to a whole host of other Scriptural issues with your theology, but that horse has been beaten)


The Lord's Supper (and baptism) are not sacraments that we exercise out of a pious duty to please God, but rather a form of accepting God's extravagant gifts to us.

AgLiving06 said:

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agie95 said:

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Wow, I believe you now.

Try supporting your answer with in context verses. Otherwise you comments are typical Christian dribble.

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Btw, to answer you question on Acts 21 (since you're avoiding the discussion on Romans).

What you contend is the proof that Paul followed the Law is actually Jews accusing Paul of not following the Law:

Acts 21:21-22 - 21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.


Paul certainly does the acts that the Jews are to try and ease the tension. But that doesn't even last 7 days:

Acts 21:27-28 - 27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching everyone everywhere against the people and the law and this place. Moreover, he even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."


So now, not only are the Jews accusing him of now following the Law, they are also accusing him much more seriously of defiling the Temple.

But even after all the Jews in Jerusalem accuse him of not following the Law, you will say he did.

BTW...when it came to the gentiles, James (the Local Bishop) still confirms that Gentiles do not need to follow it:

Acts 21:25: But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled,[d] and from sexual immorality."

So again, given the opportunity to tell gentiles to follow the Law, James (and Paul) both choose a different option.

---

I am not avoiding Romans. Stop your accusations that I am.

Why didn't you posts vs 23-26? This is where the leaders are trying to dispel the rumors about Paul and tell him what to do. Did it work? No, they came up with more lies. They were all lies though. Just as you are doing by saying Paul didn't follow Torah. You are trying to contradict a verse in the same chapter....they were excited about a group that believed AND followed Torah.

You can argue against that. It is what it is.

The accusations and Paul's defense:


Accusation:
Acts 24:4-9 - "But in order that I may not weary you any longer, I beg you in your kindness to hear us briefly. 5 For we have found this man to be a pest, stirring up riots among all the Jewish people throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Natzratim. 6 He even tried to defile the Temple, but we seized him. 8 By examining him yourself, you will be able to learn from him all these things about which we accuse him." The Judean leaders also joined in the attack, affirming that these things were true.

Defense:

11-15 - As you can verify, it is no more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 They did not find me arguing with anyone or inciting a riotnot in the Temple or in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. 13 Nor can they prove to you the charges they now bring against me. "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way (which they call a sect), I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything written in the Torah and the Prophets. 15 In God I have a hopewhich these men also wait forthat there will surely be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

The accusers have no proof. They are lies.

16-18 "Therefore I do my best always to have a clear conscience before both God and men. 17 Now after several years, I came to bring tzedakah to my country for the poor and to present offerings. 18 As I was doing this, they found me in the Temple, having been purifiedwithout any crowd or uproar.

Paul brought offerings to God. That means sacrifices. He was in the Temple, purified. That means he went through a mikvah. He was immersed in water. Sounds like he is following Torah to me.

19-20 - But there were some Jewish people from Asia, who ought to be here before you to press charges if they have anything against me. 20 Or let these men themselves tell what wrongdoing they found when I stood before the Sanhedrin.

Still no proof of the allegations against Paul.....they were all lies.

Acts 25:7 - When he (Festus) arrived, the Judeans who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him, bringing against him many serious charges which they could not prove.

More lies.

v8 - Paul said in his defense, "I have committed no offense against the Torah of the Jewish people, or against the Temple, or against Caesar."

Paul committed no offense against the Torah. This means he was still following Torah!!! If he wasn't then he would have committed an offense against the Torah.

Acts 26:21-23 - "For this reason some Judeans seized me in the Temple and tried to put me to death. 22 Since I have had God's help, to this day I have stood here testifying to both small and great. I am saying nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to happen 23 that the Messiah was to suffer and that, being first to rise from the dead, He would proclaim light both to our people and to the nations."

Paul is saying nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to happen - Messiah to suffer & proclaim a light to the nations. I don't see where Paul is saying anything about not following Torah.

I agree that Gentiles are required to follow Torah. Gentile = Pagan. Those who have turned completely to God should follow Torah, for they are Jews:

Romans 2:28-29 - For one is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision something visible in the flesh. 29 Rather, the Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heartin Spirit not in letter. His praise is not from men, but from God.

Are you a Jew according to this definition?

So you only get to make accusations about what you think Christians do wrong?

Not about what you think? (I'm not sure what to call you since you aren't a Jew or a Christian).

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Throw Philippians 2:5-11 in for good measure.

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I don't deny Yeshua is the Messiah.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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agie95 said:

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The point of Yeshua was to pay for our sentence of death.

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If Christ was a mere manifestation like a burning bush, just a gollum or fodder for cannon fire... what sort of sacrifice is that? No real hardship in sending that to death.

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He wasn't a sacrifice in this realm. Do you think God can literally die?

Teachings of men.

Judaism has existed long before Christianity. It was not broken.

That's not what an unbroken chain means, man.

agie95 said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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agie95 said:

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The point of Yeshua was to pay for our sentence of death.

---

If Christ was a mere manifestation like a burning bush, just a gollum or fodder for cannon fire... what sort of sacrifice is that? No real hardship in sending that to death.

---

He wasn't a sacrifice in this realm. Do you think God can literally die?

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You don't think Christ was the true Passover lamb?

agie95 said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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agie95 said:

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Wow, I believe you now.

Try supporting your answer with in context verses. Otherwise you comments are typical Christian dribble.

---

Btw, to answer you question on Acts 21 (since you're avoiding the discussion on Romans).

What you contend is the proof that Paul followed the Law is actually Jews accusing Paul of not following the Law:

Acts 21:21-22 - 21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.


Paul certainly does the acts that the Jews are to try and ease the tension. But that doesn't even last 7 days:

Acts 21:27-28 - 27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching everyone everywhere against the people and the law and this place. Moreover, he even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."


So now, not only are the Jews accusing him of now following the Law, they are also accusing him much more seriously of defiling the Temple.

But even after all the Jews in Jerusalem accuse him of not following the Law, you will say he did.

BTW...when it came to the gentiles, James (the Local Bishop) still confirms that Gentiles do not need to follow it:

Acts 21:25: But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled,[d] and from sexual immorality."

So again, given the opportunity to tell gentiles to follow the Law, James (and Paul) both choose a different option.

---

I am not avoiding Romans. Stop your accusations that I am.

Why didn't you posts vs 23-26? This is where the leaders are trying to dispel the rumors about Paul and tell him what to do. Did it work? No, they came up with more lies. They were all lies though. Just as you are doing by saying Paul didn't follow Torah. You are trying to contradict a verse in the same chapter....they were excited about a group that believed AND followed Torah.

You can argue against that. It is what it is.

The accusations and Paul's defense:


Accusation:
Acts 24:4-9 - "But in order that I may not weary you any longer, I beg you in your kindness to hear us briefly. 5 For we have found this man to be a pest, stirring up riots among all the Jewish people throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Natzratim. 6 He even tried to defile the Temple, but we seized him. 8 By examining him yourself, you will be able to learn from him all these things about which we accuse him." The Judean leaders also joined in the attack, affirming that these things were true.

Defense:

11-15 - As you can verify, it is no more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 They did not find me arguing with anyone or inciting a riotnot in the Temple or in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. 13 Nor can they prove to you the charges they now bring against me. "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way (which they call a sect), I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything written in the Torah and the Prophets. 15 In God I have a hopewhich these men also wait forthat there will surely be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

The accusers have no proof. They are lies.

16-18 "Therefore I do my best always to have a clear conscience before both God and men. 17 Now after several years, I came to bring tzedakah to my country for the poor and to present offerings. 18 As I was doing this, they found me in the Temple, having been purifiedwithout any crowd or uproar.

Paul brought offerings to God. That means sacrifices. He was in the Temple, purified. That means he went through a mikvah. He was immersed in water. Sounds like he is following Torah to me.

19-20 - But there were some Jewish people from Asia, who ought to be here before you to press charges if they have anything against me. 20 Or let these men themselves tell what wrongdoing they found when I stood before the Sanhedrin.

Still no proof of the allegations against Paul.....they were all lies.

Acts 25:7 - When he (Festus) arrived, the Judeans who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him, bringing against him many serious charges which they could not prove.

More lies.

v8 - Paul said in his defense, "I have committed no offense against the Torah of the Jewish people, or against the Temple, or against Caesar."

Paul committed no offense against the Torah. This means he was still following Torah!!! If he wasn't then he would have committed an offense against the Torah.

Acts 26:21-23 - "For this reason some Judeans seized me in the Temple and tried to put me to death. 22 Since I have had God's help, to this day I have stood here testifying to both small and great. I am saying nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to happen 23 that the Messiah was to suffer and that, being first to rise from the dead, He would proclaim light both to our people and to the nations."

Paul is saying nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to happen - Messiah to suffer & proclaim a light to the nations. I don't see where Paul is saying anything about not following Torah.

I agree that Gentiles are required to follow Torah. Gentile = Pagan. Those who have turned completely to God should follow Torah, for they are Jews:

Romans 2:28-29 - For one is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision something visible in the flesh. 29 Rather, the Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heartin Spirit not in letter. His praise is not from men, but from God.

Are you a Jew according to this definition?

---

Once again, you can't defend the random verses you throw out, so you start throwing other verses against the wall to see what sticks.

And I didn't hide any verses (unlike you). I clearly said that Paul tried to ease tensions by performing Jewish acts. As he says in a few more verses, he is a Jew.

Yet his actions get him kicked out of the Temple and accused of teaching against the Law and defiling the Temple.


With Roman's you still avoid answering my question.

You throw another verse against the wall, but yet again it doesn't stick.

Paul's progress in Roman's is very clear as I laid out. Those who live by the Law die in Sin. Those who believe in Jesus live for eternity.

agie95 said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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agie95 said:

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The point of Yeshua was to pay for our sentence of death.

---

If Christ was a mere manifestation like a burning bush, just a gollum or fodder for cannon fire... what sort of sacrifice is that? No real hardship in sending that to death.

---

He wasn't a sacrifice in this realm. Do you think God can literally die?

---

Then it's not literally a sacrifice, just a reenactment of one?

swimmerbabe11 said:

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You deny the nature of the Messiah and minimalize His glory.

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Exactly. I'm not sure how he says he doesn't deny the Messiah, but denies the very nature of the Messiah.

Was He sacrificed in the Temple?

Was He slaughtered in the way God showed Moses?

Was His blood placed on the alter?

He wasn't a sacrifice in that manner. Not one aspect of His death met the requirements of a sacrifice.

1 John 2:3-6 - Now we know that we have come to know Him by thisif we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God is truly made perfect. We know that we are in Him by this 6 whoever claims to abide in Him must walk just as He walked.

Do you walk as He walked? Do you follow Torah? Then when you claim to know Him, John said you are a liar.

Wow. I knew you were a heretic* but I didn't know you had such a deficient theology. Conversations are always interesting.

*not because you have heretical views but because you are constantly trying to persuade others away to your heresy.

agie95 said:

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Was He sacrificed in the Temple?

Was He slaughtered in the way God showed Moses?

Was His blood placed on the alter?

He wasn't a sacrifice in that manner. Not one aspect of His death met the requirements of a sacrifice.

---

Quote:

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The point of Yeshua was to pay for our sentence of death. All sacrifices before and after all point to Him.

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If he wasn't a sacrifice, why did all sacrifices before and after point to him?

I'm fairly new here, and made the mistake of trying to learn something about Christianity from this thread. 400+ comments filled with ships passing in the night that has devolved into insults and just generally rude behavior.

Is the goal here actually to minister to people or to "win" religious arguments? At this point, it might as well be trolling for all the good it seems to be doing. Just my observation as an outsider.

Quran, Chapter 109:

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
1. Say, "O disbelievers.
2. I do not worship what you worship.
3. Nor do you worship what I worship.
4. Nor do I serve what you serve.
5. Nor do you serve what I serve.
6. You have your way, and I have my way."

Preach to someone. If they like it, tell them more. If not, move on. It is not you who guides the heart, it is something much greater than you. Just my two cents.

agie95 said:

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1 John 2:3-6 - Now we know that we have come to know Him by thisif we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God is truly made perfect. We know that we are in Him by this 6 whoever claims to abide in Him must walk just as He walked.

Do you walk as He walked? Do you follow Torah? Then when you claim to know Him, John said you are a liar.

---

Classic agie95

Romans didn't say you wanted it to say so you went to Acts.

Acts isn't saying what you wanted it to say so now we are on to 1 John.

Here's a hint on how this will go. I'll provide context to the verse and you'll throw a new verse next. Your problem is we come from the view of Jesus. So we are always going to read it from that light. You will always try to prove the Law somehow should be snuck in as a replacement

John 13: 31-35 - 31 When he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, 'Where I am going you cannot come.' 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

It certainly makes sense that John would continue this theme in his smaller letters since it was a theme of his Epistle.

Or maybe John is just as contradictory as Paul is.

agie95 said:

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How do you determine what to obey? Ten commandments? "Moral" commandments? Those mentioned in "New Testament"?

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The OP in light of recent responses makes more sense. If Jesus was nothing special, then the Law wasn't fulfilled and put on our hearts.

leakypipes said:

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agie95 said:

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How do you determine what to obey? Ten commandments? "Moral" commandments? Those mentioned in "New Testament"?

---

The OP in light of recent responses makes more sense. If Jesus was nothing special, then the Law wasn't fulfilled and put on our hearts.

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Who said He was nothing special? Not me. The Torah being placed on one's heart would mean that you should follow it. It wasn't fulfilled in the manner you think it was. Read with a Hebrew context and not a Greek/Western mindset.

Was He a sacrifice according to the Pesach sacrifice requirements?

The answer is NO.

Did He lay down His life and atone for sins? Yes.

What other mechanism does the scripture provide to atone for sins?

Do you think Hid entrance to Jerusalem on the 10th day and sacrifice on the 14th is just a massive coincidence? That the Prophet John the Baptist misspoke when he said He is the lamb who takes away the sin of the world? That there's no relevance to that not one of His bones would be broken?

Aggie95 - I would highly recommend you read the book 'Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist.' The book looks at the earliest Christian beliefs and practices through first century Jewish eyes.

EmoryEagles said:

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I'm fairly new here, and made the mistake of trying to learn something about Christianity from this thread. 400+ comments filled with ships passing in the night that has devolved into insults and just generally rude behavior.

Is the goal here actually to minister to people or to "win" religious arguments? At this point, it might as well be trolling for all the good it seems to be doing. Just my observation as an outsider.

Quran, Chapter 109:

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
1. Say, "O disbelievers.
2. I do not worship what you worship.
3. Nor do you worship what I worship.
4. Nor do I serve what you serve.
5. Nor do you serve what I serve.
6. You have your way, and I have my way."

Preach to someone. If they like it, tell them more. If not, move on. It is not you who guides the heart, it is something much greater than you. Just my two cents.

---

It's a fair comment with regards to threads with agie95. They certainly aren't threads where anybody is evangelizing. To be fair, I heard a good comment from a Father recently. He said he's never had someone come to them to convert based on losing an argument on the internet. Few people in those discussions are intending to convert and rarely will someone admit when they have been proved wrong.

What I do like about the agie95 threads is there is actually a lot of great theological discussions for the current Christian. K2aggie is the superstar of this forum and reading his responses to agie95 are usually extremely informative and will have you searching the Bible. If you want to understand Christianity, he is going to be a good starting point.

I think there are multiple threads that exists on this forum that have great discussion about differences in beliefs in a good civil way. So if you are new to Christianity and want to learn, those are great threads to ask questions and understand. You can also start a thread with questions. Most don't devolve in to this thread if the discussion is genuine and the curiosity is real.

i am not a superstar, just someone with too much time on their hands.

The main reason I engage with him on these is because I end up learning a lot. I also kind of hope that others would not be persuaded by it, because I think it's an empty and incorrect theology.

agie95 said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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agie95 said:

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The point of Yeshua was to pay for our sentence of death.

---

If Christ was a mere manifestation like a burning bush, just a gollum or fodder for cannon fire... what sort of sacrifice is that? No real hardship in sending that to death.

---

He wasn't a sacrifice in this realm. Do you think God can literally die?

---

The bolded part reeks of Gnostic theology of the First & Second centuries.

agie95 said:

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How do you determine what to obey? Ten commandments? "Moral" commandments? Those mentioned in "New Testament"?

---

I'll just leave this here.
Maybe we can get back on topic.

How do you determine what to obey?

Edit to clarify: not a question directed at 95, his answer is clear.

Far from a gnostic. Before you post such slanderish posts, know what you are talking about. The earthly Temple is a replica of the heavenly Temple. Yeshua was a sacrifice in the heavenly Temple.

Hebrews 9:23-24 - Therefore it was necessary for the replicas of these heavenly things to be purified with these sacrificesbut the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Messiah did not enter into Holies made with handscounterparts of the true thingsbut into heaven itself, now to appear in God's presence on our behalf.

The eucharist is tradition of men who don't understand the concept of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Messiah. It is in the Talmud as well, except eating the flesh of God. There is even a midrash that is what they were doing at Sinai with the elders with Yitro came.

He was not referring to turn it into a weekly or monthly thing. It also refers to eating....you guessed it, Torah.

He could not be a sacrifice on the earth. He does not fit the requirements. He was a sacrifice in Heaven, not earth.

Hebrews 9:23-24 - Therefore it was necessary for the replicas of these heavenly things to be purified with these sacrificesbut the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Messiah did not enter into Holies made with handscounterparts of the true thingsbut into heaven itself, now to appear in God's presence on our behalf.

by the way, my belief is far from empty. How can the way the Messiah walked be empty? How can the way God said to live be empty? How can what David profess to love so much, who had a heart like God's, be empty?

Each and every prophet said to repent from sins. That means stop doing them. Yeshua said anyone who teaches not to obey the commandments would be least. What least means is debatable, but His instructions were clear.....do the commandments. When He quoted the Shema, that is referring to all of the commandments. When the lawyer asked how to enter heaven, Yeshua answered what does the Torah say.

No, my beliefs are empty. The Christian walk is empty. The just say this prayer and your in is empty. If you don't obey, then you really don't love God. It is that simple.

3 Now we know that we have come to know Him by thisif we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God is truly made perfect. We know that we are in Him by this 6 whoever claims to abide in Him must walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6