Two questions for Calvinists if you please

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PacifistAg
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AG
Okay, I saw this on facebook a few minutes ago, and had to share it given the number of calvinism discussions lately.

A Calvinist rendition of a Sunday school favorite:
Quote:

Jesus loves me, I don't know,
the Bible doesn't tell me so,
Little ones might belong to him,
but they won't know until the end.

(sing it kids)

Jesus might love me
Jesus might love me
Jesus might love me
But only if I am the elect!
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
Cage_Stage
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k2aggie07 said:


So as with most things the answer is found in the truth of the understanding of the person of Christ.
Well, I would've thought the fact that Jesus had a human nature and will would've pointed to the fact that man's nature and will were corrupt and in need of redemption. That's the way I read Athansius' argument about the humanity of Jesus. He had to have a human body, nature, and will in order to redeem those things. And they were all under corruption.
link
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But men, having turned from the contemplation of God to evil of their own devising, had come inevitably under the law of death. Instead of remaining in the state in which God had created them, they were in process of becoming corrupted entirely, and death had them completely under its dominion. For the transgression of the commandment was making them turn back again according to their nature; and as they had at the beginning come into being out of non-existence, so were they now on the way to returning, through corruption, to non-existence again.
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Naturally also, through this union of the immortal Son of God with our human nature, all men were clothed with incorruption in the promise of the resurrection. For the solidarity of mankind is such that, by virtue of the Word's indwelling in a single human body, the corruption which goes with death has lost its power over all. You know how it is when some great king enters a large city and dwells in one of its houses; because of his dwelling in that single house, the whole city is honored, and enemies and robbers cease to molest it. Even so is it with the King of all; He has come into our country and dwelt in one body amidst the many, and in consequence the designs of the enemy against mankind have been foiled and the corruption of death, which formerly held them in its power, has simply ceased to be.



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Monergism as taught by St Augustine or Luther or Calvin is not the universal faith of the fathers.
Maybe not universal. But the fact that it was taught by a church father in Augustine must mean it's within the scope of the historic faith, no? He was canonized in a universally recognized ecumenical council.
AggieRain
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RetiredAg said:

Okay, I saw this on facebook a few minutes ago, and had to share it given the number of calvinism discussions lately.

A Calvinist rendition of a Sunday school favorite:
Quote:

Jesus loves me, I don't know,
the Bible doesn't tell me so,
Little ones might belong to him,
but they won't know until the end.

(sing it kids)

Jesus might love me
Jesus might love me
Jesus might love me
But only if I am the elect!

Zobel
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AG
We should always be careful with how we define nature. This has direct impact to cosmology / the ontology of evil etc.

The Orthodox position is that God did not create anything that was not good. Man's nature is therefore good. Even in the postlapsarian state, man is not wholly evil. Our fallen nature is tarnished but not completely corrupted. God is the source of all existence, if we were completely cut off from Him we would no longer exist. St Athanasius writing supports this.

Christ's divine will and divine nature did not destroy or consume His human will and nature. We believe his human nature and divine nature coexisted, "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation". He took on our nature, not some special version of our nature. Therefore our nature is not evil. Similarly, Christ has "two natural volitions or wills and two natural actions, without division, without change, without separation, without confusion. The two natural wills are not by no means opposed to each other but his human will is compliant, it does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will. For as the wise Athanasius says, it was necessary that the will of the flesh move itself, but also that it be submitted to the divine will." Therefore our will cannot be evil. Tarnished, but not evil. Inclined to sin, but not destroyed by sin. Proceeding to destruction, yes, but not there yet.

I don't care what may be taught by any church father, no matter how illustrious, if it not part of the consensus of the fathers. Being sainted doesn't automatically mean all writings and all things spoken by that saint are inspired, divine, trustworthy. The rule of faith is "universality, antiquity, consent". Infallibility is not enjoyed individually, but only in the Church, and only because the Church is the Body of Christ. He is the Truth, so in Him - witnessing from within His Body - does the Church become the pillar and the foundation of truth.


Let's put it this way. What St Augustine taught was probably not a heresy. What Pelagius taught was. But that does not mean that what St Augustine taught was a the orthodox view, and the most productive view.

St John Cassian's point is clear: the fathers teach us that all steps in the salvation of man are attributable to God, but at all times man has free will to join God as a fellow-worker. Anything beyond that gets us into one error or another.
7thGenTexan
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k2aggie07 said:

We should always be careful with how we define nature. This has direct impact to cosmology / the ontology of evil etc.

The Orthodox position is that God did not create anything that was not good. Man's nature is therefore good. Even in the postlapsarian state, man is not wholly evil. Our fallen nature is tarnished but not completely corrupted. God is the source of all existence, if we were completely cut off from Him we would no longer exist. St Athanasius writing supports this.

Christ's divine will and divine nature did not destroy or consume His human will and nature. We believe his human nature and divine nature coexisted, "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation". He took on our nature, not some special version of our nature. Therefore our nature is not evil. Similarly, Christ has "two natural volitions or wills and two natural actions, without division, without change, without separation, without confusion. The two natural wills are not by no means opposed to each other but his human will is compliant, it does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will. For as the wise Athanasius says, it was necessary that the will of the flesh move itself, but also that it be submitted to the divine will." Therefore our will cannot be evil. Tarnished, but not evil. Inclined to sin, but not destroyed by sin. Proceeding to destruction, yes, but not there yet.

I don't care what may be taught by any church father, no matter how illustrious, if it not part of the consensus of the fathers. Being sainted doesn't automatically mean all writings and all things spoken by that saint are inspired, divine, trustworthy. The rule of faith is "universality, antiquity, consent". Infallibility is not enjoyed individually, but only in the Church, and only because the Church is the Body of Christ. He is the Truth, so in Him - witnessing from within His Body - does the Church become the pillar and the foundation of truth.


Let's put it this way. What St Augustine taught was probably not a heresy. What Pelagius taught was. But that does not mean that what St Augustine taught was a the orthodox view, and the most productive view.

St John Cassian's point is clear: the fathers teach us that all steps in the salvation of man are attributable to God, but at all times man has free will to join God as a fellow-worker. Anything beyond that gets us into one error or another.


What about Satan and demons? Do they still have some good?
Zobel
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That's the immediate thought, isn't it?

I don't believe evil has an ontological existence. Meaning, there is no opposite to God, there's not a yin yang thing going on. Just like absolute zero is really the privation of energy, absolute evil is the utter privation of Good. Since God is the Existing One, there is nothing that exists without Him - "maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible". So, complete absence of God is pure non-being.

I would have to say that God sustains the existence of demons and the devil, yes. But as to His purpose or plan for them, I don't know.
Cage_Stage
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k2aggie07 said:

Christ's divine will and divine nature did not destroy or consume His human will and nature. We believe his human nature and divine nature coexisted, "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation". He took on our nature, not some special version of our nature. Therefore our nature is not evil. Similarly, Christ has "two natural volitions or wills and two natural actions, without division, without change, without separation, without confusion. The two natural wills are not by no means opposed to each other but his human will is compliant, it does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will. For as the wise Athanasius says, it was necessary that the will of the flesh move itself, but also that it be submitted to the divine will." Therefore our will cannot be evil. Tarnished, but not evil. Inclined to sin, but not destroyed by sin. Proceeding to destruction, yes, but not there yet.
No other human this side of death has perfectly submitted his will to God's. And, more importantly, there was no point where Jesus lacked the Spirit. So you cannot point to Jesus' lone example of a perfectly submissive human will as proof that mine and yours--before the indwelling of the Spirit--were not radically corrupt.

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." What can this mean if not what it plainly says?
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Being sainted doesn't automatically mean all writings and all things spoken by that saint are inspired, divine, trustworthy. The rule of faith is "universality, antiquity, consent". Infallibility is not enjoyed individually, but only in the Church, and only because the Church is the Body of Christ.
But that's the thing. How can there be a claim for universality where at least one of the church fathers dissents? How is that "believed everywhere always and by all"?

It seems to boil down to Augustine's teachings not aligning with the consensus that developed over time in the Eastern Church, yet being accepted in the Western Church. This divergence must've happened after the Great Schism. And that's part of the problem in my mind. We have 4-6 churches today that claim apostolic succession and an infallible holy tradition, which supplements the Holy Bible. But none of them agree on what that holy tradition comprises, even with respect to the teachings of a commonly revered ancient church fathers! And how can we to test them according to Scripture (Acts 17:11), when they all add something not supported in Scripture--including apostolic succession itself?

So what can we do but read the God-breathed Scriptures--the only thing that everyone agrees is infallible--and interpret them according to their plain meanings, leaning on the Holy Spirit for guidance, and informed by the wisdom of church fathers (to the extent their writings do not contradict, add to, or subtract from, the entirety of Scripture)?
Zobel
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Quote:

No other human this side of death has perfectly submitted his will to God's. And, more importantly, there was no point where Jesus lacked the Spirit. So you cannot point to Jesus' lone example of a perfectly submissive human will as proof that mine and yours--before the indwelling of the Spirit--were not radically corrupt.
He was joined to our nature. Not to a special version. His will was truly human, He is completely and wholly a man, just as much as He is completely and wholly God. And again, I'm not saying our will isn't radically corrupt or tarnished by the passions. We all agree the human will is fallen. But not wholly. Even if a human had perfectly submitted to God's will, this would not have freed him from his fallen nature and the curse of Adam. Sin is death, and men would still be doomed to death. Christ's gospel is Himself, who He Is, not simply the absence of sin in His life. We should know Him, not try to focus on what He did not do.


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"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." What can this mean if not what it plainly says?
That quote says nothing about the capacity for good in the fallen state. It's a commentary on the Incarnation, the divine plan of redemption foreordained before the ages. I don't see how it's relevant to the discussion at hand (although clearly it is true).



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It seems to boil down to Augustine's teachings not aligning with the consensus that developed over time in the Eastern Church, yet being accepted in the Western Church. This divergence must've happened after the Great Schism. And that's part of the problem in my mind. We have 4-6 churches today that claim apostolic succession and an infallible holy tradition, which supplements the Holy Bible. But none of them agree on what that holy tradition comprises, even with respect to the teachings of a commonly revered ancient church fathers! And how can we to test them according to Scripture (Acts 17:11), when they all add something not supported in Scripture--including apostolic succession itself?

So what can we do but read the God-breathed Scriptures--the only thing that everyone agrees is infallible--and interpret them according to their plain meanings, leaning on the Holy Spirit for guidance, and informed by the wisdom of church fathers (to the extent their writings do not contradict, add to, or subtract from, the entirety of Scripture)?
Ok, lots to unpack here.

One, you should be careful how you interpret the writings of St Augustine on this matter. It should be noted that only through great effort by St Augustine was Pelagius condemned as a heretic. The important thing here is that only with caution should we suggest that certain beliefs about salvation are heretical, meaning they put one outside of the faith. Private beliefs even in error are not necessarily heretical. Again, I think it is key that part of the reason that Pelagius' teachings are heresy is because of the necessary issue they present for beliefs in Christ, and his teaching on human nature. Pelagius did not view man as having a fallen nature or even needing a savior. Ironically, he was teaching this to call people to task; in Pelagius' view, the fact that man could do good but did not was a kind of stronger indictment. But of course this denies the necessity of the Incarnation and creates the possibility of a works or meritorious salvation, which is a heresy.

We should remember this condemnation versus what was a useful historical revision by the Reformers 1000 years later to appeal to a historical support for their novel teaching on the will.

Second, the issue with St Augustine is always regarded by the east as overreaching the limits of his philosophical and linguistic frame of reference to express the ineffable. And it isn't as if the East waited years to disagree - St John Cassian was a contemporary and clearly wrote against him. When Augustine disagreed, he didn't even name St John, but called him "the author of the Conferences" because of the great esteem that St John was held. St John is an amazing historical witness because he represents a bridge between the Palestinian and Egyptian monastic communities, the teaching of St John Chrysostom who ordained him a deacon, the close fellowship with then Archdeacon Leo who became Pope St Leo the Great, and his Rome-given charter to establish monasticism per the eastern rubrics in the West (in what is now Marsailles). We continue St John's teachings on the passions in the form of the deadly sins. His relics were placed in a tomb by Pope Leo inscribed with "Saint John", perhaps the first formal canonization by Rome.

So what we have here isn't a variance in patristic witness, but an opinion expressed outside of that witness, identified as such by contemporaries. This identification as an error or excess was backed by earlier patristic witnesses. This is key, because the faith CANNOT change. It was handed down complete, 100% correct and taught correctly by the Apostles. The faith is ours to guard and preserve, not to modify or add or subtract. What we "add" to it is by exposition and explanation, not addition.

Please remember that much, much later St Augustine's particular views here were grabbed, and abused to the detriment of the Church. The orthodox view of St John and the patristic consensus is still taught to this day, and was part of the answer of Patriarch Jeremias when the Lutherans wrote to him. They didn't listen to him either.

As for patristic consensus, the writings are there; read them for yourself. I did as I could, and I found myself Orthodox by conviction and intellectual confession. I remain Orthodox for what I have experienced to be the truth in the Church.

Further, tradition does not "supplement" Holy Scripture. This is a wholly anachronistic view. They are one and the same. Scripture conveys Tradition, and Tradition reflects all that Scripture is. Holy Scripture is preserved and selected by the Church, it is the crown jewels of Holy Tradition. And of course St Paul himself charges us to hold fast to the traditions written or oral passed down to us. And we see that this rule is clearly felt by St Irenaeus onward as the only guard against error and spurious teaching. Without it we end up with the thousands of protestant denominations we see today.

To add to this, apostolic succession is scriptural. The authority of the apostles as conferred by Jesus is all over the gospels. They immediately replace Judas through ordination after the Ascension. Ordination is a heavily scriptural tradition that we maintain today via chrismation (which is an ancient and scriptural practice as well). 2 Tim 2:2 shows the charge of teaching and holding fast the faith. Etc ad nauseam. This is a universal, unanimous, and extremely well-documented historical tradition throughout Christendom unbroken until the Reformation. I mean, of all the things to object to this one is pretty wild.

So what can we do? We can submit to the authority as we are told to do in scripture, not pick willy-nilly and rely on our own judgment. We can find apostolic succession as has ever been the tradition of the church, attested to from St Clement onward - literally a universal and unanimous teaching for centuries. We can not presume that the first thousand years of the church were in error. We can not presume that 1500 years after the Resurrection that the "truth" was "discovered". We can not assume that intellectual or rational logic trumps experiential faith (I think this is the lifelong struggle of St Augustine, and his writings attest to this - as does the later writing of Thomas Aquinas). It's always strange to me that of all the scripture protestants love to quote, they never quote the verses on submitting to leaders or holding fast to oral tradition.
Cage_Stage
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Quote:

He was joined to our nature. Not to a special version. His will was truly human, He is completely and wholly a man, just as much as He is completely and wholly God. And again, I'm not saying our will isn't radically corrupt or tarnished by the passions. We all agree the human will is fallen. But not wholly. Even if a human had perfectly submitted to God's will, this would not have freed him from his fallen nature and the curse of Adam. Sin is death, and men would still be doomed to death. Christ's gospel is Himself, who He Is, not simply the absence of sin in His life. We should know Him, not try to focus on what He did not do.
I think you missed my point. We cannot draw conclusions about the level of corruption within the will of the natural, unregenerate man based on the perfectly submissive human will of Spirit-bearing Jesus. It simply does not follow that, because Spirit-filled Jesus had a submissive human will, the natural man without the aid of the Spirit has a will "tarnished by passions" but still capable of submitting in faith to Christ apart from God's active intervention.
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The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." What can this mean if not what it plainly says?
That quote says nothing about the capacity for good in the fallen state. It's a commentary on the Incarnation, the divine plan of redemption foreordained before the ages. I don't see how it's relevant to the discussion at hand (although clearly it is true).
It says nothing about the capacity for good? How does "not accept[ing] the things of God" because he's "not able to understand them" not relate to the natural man's ability to worship and give thanks to God? I'm straining to see how it could relate to anything else!

He's contrasting the natural man with the Spiritual man, who has the mind of Christ. How is this a commentary on the incarnation? Did everyone become the Spiritual man with the mind of Christ at the incarnation?
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One, you should be careful how you interpret the writings of St Augustine on this matter. It should be noted that only through great effort by St Augustine was Pelagius condemned as a heretic. The important thing here is that only with caution should we suggest that certain beliefs about salvation are heretical, meaning they put one outside of the faith. Private beliefs even in error are not necessarily heretical.
I understand that Augustine was making an argument within a context against Pelagius. In fact, this is the position I referred to before--that some think Augustine might've fallen off the other side of the horse here. Man has tendency to over-correct.

I am fascinated to learn that there is a gap into which teachings can fall, where they are unorthodox but somehow not heresy. Is this solely because they are "private beliefs"? Because Augustine taught his supposedly unorthodox doctrines, not just holding them privately.

Anyway, it's not as if the Bible makes no mention of being dead/bound in sin, quickened/freed in Christ, predestined to adoption, etc. Maybe it's because I'm too simple-minded (and maybe Augustine, Luther, Calvin, et al. were too), but I tend to accept the most natural, straightforward meaning of such terms, rather than changing them into a concept of utterly free human will, not really bound but still free to come to God after the fall, coupled with divine foreknowledge.
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And it isn't as if the East waited years to disagree - St John Cassian was a contemporary and clearly wrote against him. When Augustine disagreed, he didn't even name St John, but called him "the author of the Conferences" because of the great esteem that St John was held. St John is an amazing historical witness because he represents a bridge between the Palestinian and Egyptian monastic communities, the teaching of St John Chrysostom who ordained him a deacon, the close fellowship with then Archdeacon Leo who became Pope St Leo the Great, and his Rome-given charter to establish monasticism per the eastern rubrics in the West (in what is now Marsailles). We continue St John's teachings on the passions in the form of the deadly sins. His relics were placed in a tomb by Pope Leo inscribed with "Saint John", perhaps the first formal canonization by Rome.

So what we have here isn't a variance in patristic witness, but an opinion expressed outside of that witness, identified as such by contemporaries. This identification as an error or excess was backed by earlier patristic witnesses. This is key, because the faith CANNOT change. It was handed down complete, 100% correct and taught correctly by the Apostles. The faith is ours to guard and preserve, not to modify or add or subtract. What we "add" to it is by exposition and explanation, not addition.
Okay, maybe you had two opposing patristic viewpoints in Augustine's day. I still don't see how that can be anything but a "variance in patristic witness." But i know we're just not going to agree on that because admitting variance has implications for your church's theory of infallibility.

Setting that aside, the Christians living in those days wouldn't know which side would prevail as the orthodox view. The EOC says it takes time, perhaps even generations, to determine whether an ecumenical council is ecumenical, because you have to wait to see if it becomes universally held within the church. It's not just ecumenical by decree, right?

So you have to have some development following a council, or a teaching, to see how things shake out, which way the winds of consensus blow. The fact that Augustine's and Cassian's writings are viewed differently between east/west would be a strong indication that those winds eventually blew differently, east and west, beginning around 1054 and later. Your church says the west veered off, and you have the truly universal, orthodox view, "believed everywhere always and by all." Of course, the RCC thinks the same. Both can't be right. Why submit to your group of apostolic successors and extrabiblical traditions instead of theirs?
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Further, tradition does not "supplement" Holy Scripture. This is a wholly anachronistic view. They are one and the same. Scripture conveys Tradition, and Tradition reflects all that Scripture is. Holy Scripture is preserved and selected by the Church, it is the crown jewels of Holy Tradition. And of course St Paul himself charges us to hold fast to the traditions written or oral passed down to us. And we see that this rule is clearly felt by St Irenaeus onward as the only guard against error and spurious teaching. Without it we end up with the thousands of protestant denominations we see today.
The Bible is the written word of God. Other sources might illuminate it, but nothing else is equal to, or as certain to be, God's word.

The church didn't "select" Scriptures; God breathed them. The church recognized and preserved them (though, given minor variations in manuscripts, the church certainly went astray in even this ministerial task at times). But the church need not be infallible in order to correctly recognize the authentic books of the NT. It would need to be infallible to perfectly maintain, without alteration, oral teachings across so many centuries.

And that's what's strange to me. The church is credited with recognizing, among the various writings floating around, which of them were the authentic word of God. But when I listened to a series of EOC podcasts on (among other things) the extra-biblical doctrines of ever-virgin, sinless Mary, the deacon began teaching from the Gospel of James. It threw me for a loop that he was relying on an uninspired book, rejected from the canon, and often regarded as early Christian fan-fiction, to prop up the church's teaching. Now, I think he was doing this to show that these ideas were old. But old doesn't necessarily mean true, especially when the material is contained within spurious writings. I mean, Gnosticism itself is pretty old. So when a teaching's earliest written source is in a rejected, Gnostic gospel, falsely attributed to James, then that does not inspire much confidence that the extra-biblical matter shared between that gospel and the EOC's teachings are authentic.
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To add to this, apostolic succession is scriptural. The authority of the apostles as conferred by Jesus is all over the gospels. They immediately replace Judas through ordination after the Ascension. Ordination is a heavily scriptural tradition that we maintain today via chrismation (which is an ancient and scriptural practice as well). 2 Tim 2:2 shows the charge of teaching and holding fast the faith. Etc ad nauseam. This is a universal, unanimous, and extremely well-documented historical tradition throughout Christendom unbroken until the Reformation. I mean, of all the things to object to this one is pretty wild.
Judas was replaced in order to bring the group back to 12--one for each of the 12 thrones, from which they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28.) Sure, Paul tells Timothy to spread the true gospel, and recruit others to do the same. But there is no Scripture saying that, once the apostles died, others were to stand in their shoes with all of the authority of those who actually saw Christ and received apostleship directly from Him.
Zobel
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I will say, I enjoy discussing these thing with you. You're always thoughtful in your comments.

So I started to respond to this and it got *real* long.

This is the abridged version - if you want the specific quotes from all the fathers named, I can post them.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "submitting in faith" and "active intervention"? That seems loaded. Can we simplify it a bit?

Let's start with what Pelagius taught that was actually condemned: that man does not have a fallen nature, and that man could attain to salvation by works apart from Christ. In no way is this an acceptable Orthodox teaching, and St John Cassian clearly rejects it.

The Council of Carthage said:
1. Adam was not created by God subject to death, but sins merited death.
2. That infants are baptized for the remission of sins.
3. That the grace of God remits sin but also aids us to sin no more.
4. The grace of Christ gives us knowledge of our duty and inspires us to accomplish.
5. That without the grace we could not fulfil the divine commandments.
6. That if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.
7. That the lords prayer the saints pray for forgiveness of sins.
8. That when they prayed this they were not lying.

Note they didn't endorse the bondage of the will or any particular teaching of St Augustine. They just pronounced an anathema on Pelagius' teaching. We can't go farther, and the only point that you can really point to as justification for Calvinism is Canon 5. But it has a specific scope:
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It seemed good that whosoever should say that the grace of justification was given to us only that we might be able more readily by grace to perform what we were ordered to do through our free will; as if though grace was not given, although not easily, yet nevertheless we could even without grace fulfil the divine commandments, let him be anathema. For the Lord spake concerning the fruits of the commandments, when he said: "Without me ye can do nothing," and not "Without me ye could do it but with difficulty."
(Even the council could be salty sometimes - ha!)

The next question becomes, given the above just how far is man's will fallen? Is it fallen to the point that he can no longer even will to the good? At this point, St John cautions us about the productivity of such a discussion: "believing [either side] and asserting them more widely than is right [causes us to be] entangled in all kinds of opposite errors". Further, "If however any more subtle inference of man's argumentation and reasoning seems opposed to this interpretation (i.e., that of free will), it should be avoided rather than brought forward to the destruction of the faith...for how God works all things in us and yet everything can be ascribed to free will, cannot be fully grasped by the mind and reason of man." In short, it is a mystery with an acceptable paradox, no different than the Incarnation or any number of aspects of the Christian faith. To the extent that going one way or another can bring "the destruction of the faith"!

However, here we are. So, let's lower the bar from "submit in faith" to simply having free agency, free will to incline to do any good, to desire a righteous act. A single inclination is all it would take to disprove the total depravity angle. The response of the fathers is, without qualification, man has free will. St John says that at all stages it is God, and man. God gives the divine gift, a "seed of goodness" to each man, and the choice of free will is open to either side; then grace helps us to attain to virtue, but the will is not destroyed; and finally God helps us persist to what we gain, with our working in synergy with him. But clearly the will remains free.

And this is not St John Cassian versus St Augustine - St John himself makes this abundantly clear, when he says if we remove the freedom of the will, "we may seem to have broken the rule of the Church's faith" and "laid down by all the Catholic fathers" etc. What fathers? He appears to literally mean all of them, as the details or peculiarities of St Augustine's stance seems to be his own. Of course Calvin himself recognized this when he wrote "Even though the Greeks above the rest and Chrysostom especially among them extol the ability of the human will, yet all the ancients, save Augustine, so differ, waver, or speak confusedly on this subject, that almost nothing certain can be derived from their writings." All the ancients. And Calvin, in extreme hubris, presumed to teach the fathers. Which fathers? OK, let's go.

St Ignatius of Antioch
Letter to Diognetius
St Justin Martyr
St Athenagoras
St Irenaeus
St Cyprian of Carthage (a Latin father)
Origen
St Athanasius the Great
St Vincent of Lerins
St Methodius
St Cyril of Jerusalem
St Gregory of Nyssa
St John Chrysostom
St Leo the Great

After St Augustine, we have
St John of Damascus
St John Climacus
St Isaac of Syria
St Maximos the Confessor
St Gregory Palamas

So what's the consensus here? The Apostolic fathers, the early apologists, the Cappadocian fathers, the Latin fathers, the Syrian fathers, the Desert Fathers, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, several of Constantinople, bishops in Alexandria, Antioch, all taught this. Yet Calvin relied almost exclusively on St Augustine (using polemic works against Pelagius) and later medieval scholastics. In other words, Calvin operated independently outside of the patristic consensus - and he freely admits this in his own words.

Recall again why the council of Carthage condemned Pelagius' teachings, and read what the Fathers say. Read what St Paul says to the Aeropagus: "God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us." He also says that God accepts men "who fear him and do what is right." Man clearly has the capacity to long for God. St Paul tells St Timothy that God our Savior wants "all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". If we don't have free will to reject, does He want in vain?

There's another chunk regarding the implicit monotheletism involved in this but I will break the response up. And I haven't even gotten to the apostolic succession angle, because it seems off topic.

Zobel
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Regarding the implicit monotheletism...

There is an element of implied monotheletism in the utter dominance of the divine will over the Human. Christ's human will was not destroyed or consumed by the divine, but freely worked worked in consort. St Leo the Great repeatedly wrote on this, and on the exact human nature of Christ, that he took on our flesh in all its weakness and its exact nature, excepting ONLY sin. What this means is, if we lose our free will and choice to the divine will, then Christ's human will is lost to the divine as well. St Gregory the Theologian wrote "For that which He [Christ] has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole." He says that our being in the image of God is the rationality in our creation, that "He endowed [us] with breath from Himself, which is the intelligent soul" and gave Adam "law as material upon which to exercise his free will." To save us, "He came to His own image, put on flesh for the sake of flesh, mingled Himself with a rational soul on account of my soul, purifying like with like, and in all things except sin He became man." He continues "He who Is becomes, the Uncreated is created, and the Unlimited is limited by means of a rational soul which mediates between the divinity and the grossness of the flesh." (Oration 45, On Pascha). Even the unregenerated man has a rational soul, else he is no longer in the image of God. To say otherwise is a troublesome claim, to say the least.

Echoing St Gregory, when confronted with Calvisinism in the 1600s the Church flatly rejects it. Dosetheus' Confession says: "We believe man in falling by the [original] transgression to have become comparable and like unto the beasts, that is, to have been utterly undone, and to have fallen from his perfection and impassibility, yet not to have lost the nature and power which he had received from the supremely good God. For otherwise he would not be rational, and consequently not man; but to have the same nature, in which he was created and the same power of his nature, that is free-will, living and operating." And therefore the Church pronounced Calvinism a heresy! "But to say, as the most wicked heretics and as is contained in the Chapter answering hereto [i.e., Canons of Dort] - that God, in predestinating, or condemning, had in no wise regard to the works of those predestinated, or condemned, we know to be profane and impious." To lose free will is to lose what is part of our essential nature as mankind, and to lose the rational spirit God breathed into us. This drives a wedge between us and Christ's nature as man.

Monotheletism is an explicit heresy of the Church. I think the root here, is as St Leo states, all heresies are from a deformed Christology. And in this case, a distorted view of human nature causes us to lose the correct view of Christ's humanity. He really was Human, with a Human free will exactly like ours.

Truthfully, this distorted view reflects back on a distorted view of God, stressing His sovereignty at the expense of His love. And a distorted view of salvation, because we are made sons to enter into communion with God as gods by grace, united to Him by everything save His uncreated nature. Christ says "May they all be one: as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, so may they also be one in us." Love does not compel, and the inherent freedom of the love of communion with the Trinity is a critical aspect of Christ's Incarnation into two wills. St Isaac the Syrian says "When we have reached love, we have reached God". Love and free will go hand in hand. In addition to his humanity, to deny man's free will is to deny the interpersonal love of the Trinity.

Again, the simple answer is: God is the only source of existence and all good things, and nothing good happens apart from Him in any way. And man has free will, which God chooses not to violate. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears my voice and opens the door I will come in." Orthodox is explicitly synergistic, and also explicitly separate from the heresy of Pelagius.

However brilliant St Augustine was, and whatever his great contributions may be to the world, on this I can't follow him. And further, what was done with his writings centuries after his death is a great disservice to him, and a tragedy for Christendom as a whole.
Zobel
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So, as I've shown, there is actually not an opposing patristic viewpoint. There is an extremely unanimous patristic viewpoint, and then there is the polemic work of St Augustine. St Vincent says we look for the "consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors." St Augustine's writings do not change the fact that free will absolutely enjoys the consensus of the faith.

I will let St Photios the Great address using St Augustine to support a heresy, ie, Reformed theology in this case. Here are some excerpts where he is answering those who would use St Ambrose and St Augustine to support the filioque in his Mystagogy.
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You bring forth Ambrose, Augustine and Jerome as well as certain other men as witnesses against the dogma of the Church, because you say they hold the opinion that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. They say, "One should not charge the Holy Fathers with the crime of ungodliness: one either agrees with their opinions because they taught rightly and are acknowledged as Fathers, or they and their teaching should be rejected as impious because they introduced impious doctrines." These things are said by youngsters in fearful desperation, for the insufferable conclusions of their unprofitable impudence cannot escape in the face of knowledge and zeal. Not content with distorting the word of the Master and slandering the herald of piety, they deem the Fathers' zealous pursuits incomplete and then turn around and make their Fathers treat the Master and His herald with wanton violence, and then they celebrate this!
...
Although in other things they are the equals of the best [Fathers], what does this have to do with you? If they slipped and fell into error, therefore, by some negligence or oversight - for such is the human condition - when they were corrected, they neither contradicted nor were they obstinately disobedient. For they were not, even in the slightest degree, participants in those things in which you abound. Though they were admirable by reason of many other qualities that manifest virtue and piety, they professed your teaching either through ignorance or negligence. But if they in no way shared the benefit of your advantages [of being corrected], why do your introduce their human fault as a mandate for your blasphemous belief? By your mandate, you attest that men who never imposed anything of this type are obvious transgressors, and so you demand a penalty for the worst blasphemy under the pretense of benevolence and affection. The results of your contentions are not good. Observe the excessive impiety and perversity of this frivolous knowledge! They claim the Master to be their advocate, but are discovered to be liars. They call upon the disciples to be their advocates, but are likewise discovered to be slanderers. They fled for refuge to the Fathers, but are found to cast down their great honor with blasphemy.
...
Admittedly, those things were said (by Augustine and Jerome). But perhaps they spoke out of necessity in attacking [pagan] Greek madness, or whilst refuting heresy, or through some condescension to the weakness of their listeners, or due to the necessity of any one of the many things presented by daily life. If, by chance, such a statement escaped their lips because of one or more of the above reasons, then why do you still dismiss their testimony, and take as a necessary dogma what they did not mean as a dogma?
...
You call the men Augustine, Jerome, and others resembling them your Fathers. You do well in this, but not in the purpose for which you use them, but because you consider it not praiseworthy to despise their title of Father....You intended to frighten us with the Fathers whom you insult. But if there are among the chorus of the Fathers those who reject your subtle scheming against godly doctrine, then they are the Fathers of the Fathers. And, indeed, they are the Fathers of those very same men whom you acknowledge as Fathers. If you acknowledge Ambrose, Augustine and Jerome, then why do you not acknowledge those others, but indeed, deny them?
Which of course is almost identical to the response of Patriarch Jeremias to the Lutherans. Why call on the fathers if by doing so you set them against their own church, which holds their own teachings?

St Augustine taught a great many things that Protestants ignore. What communion do they have with him? He belongs to my church, not yours.
Zobel
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In before TLDR and I genuinely apologize for writing so much. I know people are gonna make fun of me for it.
Cage_Stage
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Quote:

The next question becomes, given the above just how far is man's will fallen? Is it fallen to the point that he can no longer even will to the good? At this point, St John cautions us about the productivity of such a discussion: "believing [either side] and asserting them more widely than is right [causes us to be] entangled in all kinds of opposite errors". Further, "If however any more subtle inference of man's argumentation and reasoning seems opposed to this interpretation (i.e., that of free will), it should be avoided rather than brought forward to the destruction of the faith...for how God works all things in us and yet everything can be ascribed to free will, cannot be fully grasped by the mind and reason of man." In short, it is a mystery with an acceptable paradox, no different than the Incarnation or any number of aspects of the Christian faith. To the extent that going one way or another can bring "the destruction of the faith"!

However, here we are. So, let's lower the bar from "submit in faith" to simply having free agency, free will to incline to do any good, to desire a righteous act.
Thanks for this. The bolded part above is at least candid. It's true that we cannot comprehend the totality of an infinite God. But at the same time, I'm not sure I agree that what God has revealed to us is incapable of being reconciled with the reasoning abilities He gave us.

And anyway, all of that above is not inconsistent with reformed theology. I believe in "free will," in that God does not force anyone into a loving relationship with Him against their free will and desires. But I believe that He can, and does, make you a new creation, with new desires so that everything about your life changes, including--indirectly--your will. That's the new life in Christ. It doesn't say, "if anyone is in Christ, he is almost totally new, but he still has the same nature." It says, "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

Please, Lord, take away my heart of stone and give me a new heart of flesh! (Ezek. 36:26.) Isn't that our prayer for everyone? Isn't that the prayer Jesus had in mind for us to make on behalf of our stone-hearted enemies? He gives us that new heart, not because we qualified or merited it, or because we somehow willed ourselves to love Him with a heart of stone. We only love Him because He first loves us.

Quote:

There is an element of implied monotheletism in the utter dominance of the divine will over the Human. Christ's human will was not destroyed or consumed by the divine, but freely worked worked in consort. St Leo the Great repeatedly wrote on this, and on the exact human nature of Christ, that he took on our flesh in all its weakness and its exact nature, excepting ONLY sin. What this means is, if we lose our free will and choice to the divine will, then Christ's human will is lost to the divine as well.
All of this might be true if I argued that God dominates our wills. He doesn't. It's a distortion of reformed theology to say that's what Calvinists believe. He makes us a new creation, with a heart of flesh in place of the old heart of stone. You believe that too, even if you think it takes place at baptism. So my position doesn't involve any more divine dominance of the human will than yours does.

Jesus never underwent such a rebirth. He's the only person since the fall who didn't need it.
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St Augustine taught a great many things that Protestants ignore. What communion do they have with him? He belongs to my church, not yours.
Ouch! In fairness, it's Christ's church. And whether you believe it might be possible or not, I pray that you and I are both living stones in it--even if in opposite wings.
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Come now, clearly the bondage of the will, total depravity, is a point of distinction.

Canons of Dort
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Therefore all men are conceived in sin, and are by nature children of wrath, incapable of saving good, prone to evil, dead in sin, and in bondage thereto; and without the regenerating grace of the Holy Spirit, they are neither able nor willing to return to God, to reform the depravity of their nature, or to dispose themselves to reformation.


Calvin
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Here I only want to suggest briefly that the whole man is overwhelmedas by a delugefrom head to foot, so that no part is immune from sin and all that proceeds from him is to be imputed to sin.


Luther
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Free will' after the fall is nothing but a word, and so long as it does what is within it, it is committing deadly sin.


I don't believe these things. These are not what the church has always taught.

Ironically in the same paragraph that st Vincent says this "For who ever before that profane Pelagius attributed so much antecedent strength to Free-will, as to deny the necessity of God's grace to aid it towards good in every single act?" he says "who, I say, before this Simon Magus, dared to say that God, the Creator, is the author of evil, that is, of our wickednesses, impieties, flagitiousnesses, inasmuch as he asserts that He created with His own hands a human nature of such a description, that of its own motion, and by the impulse of its necessity-constrained will, it can do nothing else, can will nothing else, but sin, seeing that tossed to and fro, and set on fire by the furies of all sorts of vices, it is hurried away by unquenchable lust into the utmost extremes of baseness?"

If man had a necessity-constrained will he no longer has free will. If man is totally lost to Free will he is no longer rational - and no longer a man. This heresy is old. Man has free will and any denial of that must absolutely be a non-starter. He must be able to choose to do Good or evil - and likewise, the inclination to Good always begins by the Grace of God.
Cage_Stage
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k2aggie07 said:


Come now, clearly the bondage of the will, total depravity, is a point of distinction.

* * *

If man had a necessity-constrained will he no longer has free will. If man is totally lost to Free will he is no longer rational - and no longer a man. This heresy is old. Man has free will and any denial of that must absolutely be a non-starter. He must be able to choose to do Good or evil - and likewise, the inclination to Good always begins by the Grace of God.
This does not follow. You're conflating two different things.

Man's will necessarily follows his desires--whether good or evil--but that doesn't destroy its freedom. Unless you think believers somehow will themselves to love God against their own desires, you must accept this sense of "necessity" too. If you hate something, are at enmity with it (like I am with green beans), you cannot choose to love it.

Natural man's bondage to sin, resulting from the fall, is not God coercing man's will toward sin against his desires. Nor is the regenerate man coerced to love God against his desires. And that's the strawman you're arguing against.

I just want to make this clear, because your arguments seem to suggest that God changes people's wills in contravention to their nature. I'm saying He gives them a new nature. There's no part of man that's untouched by His Spirit. Surely, you agree with that, right?

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16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
  • What were we? Slaves to sin, in need of new Exodus.
  • What are we now? Slaves of righteousness.
  • Who made us that way and deserves the thanks? God alone.


Quote:

I don't believe these things. These are not what the church has always taught.

Ironically in the same paragraph that st Vincent says this "For who ever before that profane Pelagius attributed so much antecedent strength to Free-will, as to deny the necessity of God's grace to aid it towards good in every single act?" he says "who, I say, before this Simon Magus, dared to say that God, the Creator, is the author of evil, that is, of our wickednesses, impieties, flagitiousnesses, inasmuch as he asserts that He created with His own hands a human nature of such a description, that of its own motion, and by the impulse of its necessity-constrained will, it can do nothing else, can will nothing else, but sin, seeing that tossed to and fro, and set on fire by the furies of all sorts of vices, it is hurried away by unquenchable lust into the utmost extremes of baseness?"
I don't believe those things either; and neither did Augustine, Luther, or Calvin. Let's bold the whole idea here, so we can see how this differs from reformed theology. The reformers didn't argue that God created man a slave to sin, unable to understand the things of God. But that's the natural man after the fall. You're not arguing with me on that, you're arguing with Paul.

Bondage to sin does not mean he sins against his will. He freely wills every single sin he commits, just like I do.

And let's be sure we understand what sin is, and thus what total depravity is. It's not that man is as evil as he can be. It's that he can do nothing good in the eyes of God. Anything that seems good to man, if it's done for any reason other out of faith in God, it's sin. (Romans 14:23.) Nothing is good, no matter how charitable it seems in the eyes of men, if it's done in unbelief. (Titus 1:15.)

That's why the natural man--with his heart of stone, who can't even understand things spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14)--cannot possibly do anything good in the eyes of God. He has no faith, which is a prerequisite for any good. He can't will himself to faith in God when he lacks ability to understand the things of God. That's why he needs God's gift of faith. And once he receives it, he can't boast about it; not 1% of it was his doing. (Ephesians 2:8-9.) Until God does that for him--makes him an entirely new creation--even the kindest act imaginable is sin because it's not done to God's glory.
Zobel
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OK, but let's be clear about what the bondage of the will teaches. No matter what a man does, even if he genuinely aspires to the good, is sin. He can't even want to do good without grace. This means, effectively, he has no choice but to sin, because he can choose nothing other than sin. Sin has completely and wholly triumphed over Man's created nature, that he can no longer even begin to want to do what he was created to do. This isn't freedom, because freedom implies a certain open possibility of outcomes. You've restricted it to picking which type of sin to partake of. Drawing a distinction between that and the heresy of Simon as detailed by St Vincent is picking at nits: if our will can do nothing else but sin, our nature has been wholly corrupted to the loss of free agency. The Devil has complete sway over our will.

This is not what we believe and never has been. St Athanasisus didn't say that man was perished completely but that he was perishing. He didn't say that the rational man made in God's image had disappeared, but that it was disappearing. He didn't say that the handiwork of god was gone, but that it was in the process of dissolution.

Man longs for God, is incomplete without God. Our humor, in any culture, reflects this. We are perplexed by bodily functions, by death - these are always the root of humor, it is our eternal side being confounded by our tepmoral. This, at least, evangelicals get right - man is created with "a God shaped hole in his heart". Man is created for the eternal things, and temporal things give no satisfaction. Every single pagan philosopher attests to this, as does Solomon. It's all meaningless without God. If what you were saying is true, pagan philosophy would not seek the Good but pleasure. Even the hedonists, who sought to maximize pleasure, found that the maximizing of pleasure was to minimize enticement to what we lacked, or that ultimately maximizing pleasure IS maximizing the Good (as says Plato). Man longs for God, needs God, always yearns for God, even unconsciously.

The unregenerate man can choose to follow God, and God in His Mercy constantly seeks after and calls him to Himself. This is why no one has an excuse. The first choice to follow God is truly our own, even if the idea or inclination is from Him. We must choose Him; He does not force us against our will, even in that first step. Even if he arranges the circumstance, entraps us with His love, it is OUR choice to accept. God calls: we choose. Nothing is done without His grace, nothing is done without our consent. This is always the teaching of the Church.

He doesn't change our wills against our nature! Of course! Don't you see that being created by Him our nature is fundamentally good? Our "new" isn't new but old, it is a resoration to the original state. We didn't lose it completely, it was only darkened by passions, tarnished by sin. But not gone, never gone, or else there would be nothing left to regenerate. The man that is wholly lost to sin no longer has a tarnished image of God, but no image of God. Free will, the rational intellect, is that image. If it is gone, we are no longer Man but an animal. Christ isn't something novel but ancient; the New Adam, the original design made perfect. And we become the same, gods by grace what He is by nature, not shedding our nature but restoring and perfecting it.

As for your quote - how can you skip over the conscious choice to "present yourselves as slaves"? Obeying is not compulsion, there is choice inherent in the word! You either obey sin to death, or obey God to righteousness. We are slaves to God by choice, not by compulsion!

Again, if a man has a free will but the free will is limited in scope to sin, the will is not free at all. You're playing logic and rhetoric games with ontological realities.

Man can do good in the eyes of God. He encourages us, pursues us, loves us. Even our feeble attempts He accepts, continously showing mercy at all times to our infirmities, even to death on the cross. The fathers say His pursuit of us is like that of a lover. Do you have a kid? Don't you credit even the smallest attempt by him with joy and congratulations? Don't you see even the slightest good act and reward it? I do, and I know my love is a horrible portion of God's love as Father for us. How I love my sons is nothing compared to His love for us. You can't arbitrarily define sin as any action performed by an unbeliever, and then tautologially say that an unbeliever's action is sin.

Again you bring up 1 Corinthians 2:14. Remember St John's words, we don't have understanding that leads to faith, but faith that leads to understanding. Read the paragraph above. St Paul is referring to the Gospel, his "message and preaching" that wasn't of "persuasive words of wisdom but demonstration of Spirit and power". He says that wisdom is not of the world, but the hidden wisdom of God, foreordained before the world, which no one of the world understands - and the understanding of the Gospel comes from the Spirit, and the knowledge of God comes from God. The natural man doesn't understand or accept this knowledge, because it is foolishness to him. What on earth does this have to do with the bondage of the will? Again, nothing whatsoever. Faith produces understanding. The choice to believe is well before aspiring to spiritual knowledge and understanding that comes with faith. This quote is wholly irrelevant to free will.

Find me the scripture that says faith is the prerequisite for good. You're begging the question.

The whole premise of "even the kindest act imaginable is sin because it's not done to God's glory" is utterly ridiculous. You make every prophet, every OT saint a grave sinner. None of them had the mind of Christ, none of them attained to the glory promised us, none of them enjoyed communion with the Holy Spirit or the adoption of Sons. You make a mockery of the Law, not that the Law exposed sin, but that the Law CAUSED sin because even in attempting to follow the Law, sin was caused.

I've done my best to show you that this is a novel teaching outside of the patristic consensus. You seem to be choosing to embrace this heresy, the novel teaching some 16 centuries removed from Christ. You complain about my saying that you are not in the same Church as me, but given the chance you separate yourself from us willingly. St Paul's words are true: "Reject a divisive man after a first and second admonition, knowing that such a man is corrupt and sinful; he is self-condemned." Because the root word of heresy is choice - if you freely choose to believe this heresy, knowing it puts you outside of the faith of the Fathers, as admitted by Calvin, you're putting yourself out of the Church. It's ironic that even in this, we see the freedom of choice - "self-condemned" and not by any other.

St Vincent of Lerins is often quoted about the rule of faith, but his writing tells us more:
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To preach any doctrine therefore to Catholic Christians other than what they have received never was lawful, never is lawful, never will be lawful: and to anathematize those who preach anything other than what has once been received, always was a duty, always is a duty, always will be a duty.

Which being the case, is there any one either so audacious as to preach any other doctrine than that which the Church preaches, or so inconstant as to receive any other doctrine than that which he has received from the Church?

That elect vessel, that teacher of the Gentiles, that trumpet of the apostles, that preacher whose commission was to the whole earth, that man who was caught up to heaven, cries and cries again in his Epistles to all, always, in all places, "If any man preach any new doctrine, let him be accursed."

On the other hand, an ephemeral, moribund set of frogs, fleas, and flies, such as the Pelagians, call out in opposition, and that to Catholics, Take our word, follow our lead, accept our exposition, condemn what you used to hold, hold what you used to condemn, cast aside the ancient faith, the institutes of your fathers, the trusts left for you by your ancestors and receive instead what? I tremble to utter it: for it is so full of arrogance and self-conceit, that it seems to me that not only to affirm it, but even to refute it, cannot be done without guilt in some sort.


dermdoc
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Blue star my friend, like a breath of fresh air.

Edited to add I wish that I would have heard that message many years ago. Would have saved a ton of guilt and sleepless nights. Praise God for his love and peace.
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PacifistAg
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dermdoc said:

Blue star my friend, like a breath of fresh air.

Edited to add I wish that I would have heard that message many years ago. Would have saved a ton of guilt and sleepless nights. Praise God for his love and peace.
I was honestly just telling my wife this the other night. I grew up in a church that tried to scare people to Christ. It was largely about avoiding eternal torture, and as a result, I still struggle with guilt although not as badly. I think this is why I'm so drawn to Orthodox now. It just seems so much more consistent with the nature of God revealed through Christ, and that brings this sense of peace within me.
“Conquer men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of justice to shame by your compassion."
--St Isaac the Syrian
dermdoc
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Agree. And what is fascinating as I have lost my guilt and sense of always being condemned, I have been much more free in sharing my faith, praying with others, etc. It no longer feels like a burden but is actually a joy.
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Cage_Stage
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If Athanasius meant that each natural man is on his way to spiritual death, rather than spiritually dead, then that puts him at variance with Paul. It looks more to me like Athansius is saying that mankind, as a whole, was proceeding to destruction. But God saved a still-growing remnant.

Yes, I believe man is born with a God-shaped hole in his heart. And natural man tries to fill it with things of creation rather than the creator. (Romans 1:25.) That is something of himself--his own goods, his own pleasure, his own power, his own humanist generosity, his own politics, or a pagan god subject to his own power because it's a manifestation of his own imagination (Romans 1:23.)--anything but the living God who has revealed Himself to us.

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The unregenerate man can choose to follow God, and God in His Mercy constantly seeks after and calls him to Himself. This is why no one has an excuse. The first choice to follow God is truly our own, even if the idea or inclination is from Him. We must choose Him; He does not force us against our will, even in that first step. Even if he arranges the circumstance, entraps us with His love, it is OUR choice to accept. God calls: we choose. Nothing is done without His grace, nothing is done without our consent. This is always the teaching of the Church.
Nothing here I disagree with. Even the unregenerate man knows about God. That's why he has no excuse.

And that's all evangelism is, an appeal to bring to the surface the knowledge of God that's rooted in every human--foolish and wise alike. We try to do it in cooperation with the Spirit. It's the natural man's free choice to suppress that truth, and he invariably does so until God gives him grace.
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Find me the scripture that says faith is the prerequisite for good. You're begging the question.
I thought this would be basic.

  • Romans 14:23 - "whatever is not from faith is sin." If it's sin, it's not good. And yes, Paul is talking about believers here. But he's supporting his specific argument with a universal truth. if a believer sins when he does something outside of faith, it must be true for the unbeliever too.
  • 1 Corinthians 10:31 - "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." If you're faithless, your actions do not glorify God.
  • Hebrews 11:6 - "And without faith it is impossible to please Him." If it doesn't pleas God, it's not good.


Even the virtues of unbelievers are sin. Scripture says so plainly.
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The whole premise of "even the kindest act imaginable is sin because it's not done to God's glory" is utterly ridiculous. You make every prophet, every OT saint a grave sinner. None of them had the mind of Christ, none of them attained to the glory promised us, none of them enjoyed communion with the Holy Spirit or the adoption of Sons. You make a mockery of the Law, not that the Law exposed sin, but that the Law CAUSED sin because even in attempting to follow the Law, sin was caused.
I must be misreading you. Do you think the OT saints were somehow saved differently than we are today? Do you think they labored under the law without faith and yet were saved? I thought that was Pelagianism.

The OT saints were saved through Jesus--one sufficient sacrifice for all, backward and forward in time. They believed God's promises of the coming Christ in a forward looking way, without knowledge of exactly how God would accomplish, through His messiah, all that was promised. They had no clear way of knowing that God would come Himself in the flesh, in the person of His Son, and suffer the curse of death in our place to deal with our sins. But that doesn't mean that the OT saints lacked faith, and everything they did proceeded without faith.

You don't think the OT saints had the Spirit? He's expressly all over the OT. He inspired the craftsmen who built the temple with skill and wisdom. He strengthened Samuel to tear apart the lions. He descends upon those who speak prophecy. He restrained Balaam from prophesying against His chosen people.
Zobel
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AG
And if you don't believe in the free will to accept or reject initial call from God that puts you at variance with everyone on the list above, including St Athanasius. Could it be perhaps that your reading of St Paul isn't right? Maybe the centuries of people reading the scriptures in their native tongue understood it pretty well? Possibly? Even in an appeal to the preponderance of evidence, on this matter you've got everyone on one side, and then St Augustine on another.

St Athanasius specifically says rational man. Rational man is only rational because of free will. If the free will was locked to sin, rational man is gone. The intelligent soul is the rational soul.

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"The first choice to follow God is truly our own, even if the idea or inclination is from Him."

If you believe that i can't see that you believe in the bondage of the will. That's the only statement that matters.

"Therefore all men are conceived in sin, and are by nature children of wrath, incapable of saving good, prone to evil, dead in sin, and in bondage thereto; and without the regenerating grace of the Holy Spirit, they are neither able nor willing to return to God, to reform the depravity of their nature, or to dispose themselves to reformation."

You can't believe both of those things at once. Because the regenerating grace of the Holy Spirit comes after belief / upon baptism / chrismation. If the initial choice to believe is Man's and his alone, in free will, then the statement above is false. Simple.

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Your scriptural support is weak for faith is a prerequisite to do good. Romans and Corinthian verses are instruction, not a theological commentary. Don't stretch them beyond their purpose. Hebrews 11 continues - "For it behooves the one drawing near to God to believe that He exists and that He becomes a rewarder to those earnestly seeking Him out." Ok? This again is irrelevant to the discussion. We're not talking about a person trying to draw near and etc, that's all happening after where our point of focus lies.

What you're suggesting is that God doesn't care what the action is, that He cares exclusively for the heart and intent. Of course this means that to God, an unregenerate man murdering and raping is just as much sin as that same man loving his neighbor. Because pagans did this as well. God judges the heart, yes - but He also cares about what we do. You would make the actual action irrelevant and count it all to sin. This makes no sense.

OT saints went to Sheol with (very) few exceptions. None of them received be promises we have so that they wouldn't be made perfect apart from us. Unless your definition of regeneration is wildly different than mine, no - none of the OT prophets were saved in a temporal sense before Christ. They didn't labor under the Law and were saved... they labored under the Law and were not saved. Because the Law cannot save. Sheol was filled with the righteous and unrighteous alike. But now it is empty.

Even being filled with the spirit is not the same as our salvation because that only comes through Christ and only by the Incarnation. We get what the prophets anticipated in faith.
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

What you're suggesting is that God doesn't care what the action is, that He cares exclusively for the heart and intent. Of course this means that to God, an unregenerate man murdering and raping is just as much sin as that same man loving his neighbor. Because pagans did this as well. God judges the heart, yes - but He also cares about what we do. You would make the actual action irrelevant and count it all to sin. This makes no sense.
Can you explain this? To classify a killing as "murder", you have to take into account intent, right? One person firing a gun at another is not necessarily murder. Two people engaging in a particular relationship is not necessarily rape. Intent matters. Action does not.
Zobel
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Right but if even ostensibly good actions are sin, sin is sin is sin. So killing is sin as much as "even the kindest act imaginable" to use his words. That's ridiculous.
Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

Right but if even ostensibly good actions are sin, sin is sin is sin. So killing is sin as much as "even the kindest act imaginable" to use his words. That's ridiculous.
An action is good or kind depending on the intent, not the action itself. Is that what you meant by "ostensibly"? It appears good, but it may not be?
Cage_Stage
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Quote:

"The first choice to follow God is truly our own, even if the idea or inclination is from Him."

If you believe that i can't see that you believe in the bondage of the will. That's the only statement that matters.
A will that necessarily follows the heart--whether the heart is stone or made flesh--does not destroy the individual's accountability and ownership of the decision.
Quote:

What you're suggesting is that God doesn't care what the action is, that He cares exclusively for the heart and intent. Of course this means that to God, an unregenerate man murdering and raping is just as much sin as that same man loving his neighbor.
Incorrect. It's not either-or. God cares about what you do and the heart with which you do it. Doing the right things for the wrong reasons is not good and does not please God.
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2 "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
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5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
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16 "Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Even such pious acts as giving to the poor, praying, and fasting are not righteous if they're done to glorify yourself rather than God.

You don't agree with that?!?
Zobel
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Who's the judge of intent? Only God.

So a nonbeliever giving his life for his friend - because this is a thing that has happened - sinned in doing so? Even if he thought he was doing the right thing? Trying to do the right thing? It was actually somehow worse for him to do this than not, because all action is sin?
Cage_Stage
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k2aggie07 said:

Right but if even ostensibly good actions are sin, sin is sin is sin. So killing is sin as much as "even the kindest act imaginable" to use his words. That's ridiculous.
What's ridiculous is you attributing that argument to me. Just because two faithless actions are both sinful, it does not follow that all sins are equally evil.

You seem to be saying you can do good apart from God.
Zobel
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The regeneration of our hearts comes after assent / will / rebirth not before. You've got it all backwards.

And yes intent matters but your way makes it so that even if a person THINKS they're doing the right thing, even if they're TRYING to be unselfish, it's sin if they're not a believer.
Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

Who's the judge of intent? Only God.

So a nonbeliever giving his life for his friend - because this is a thing that has happened - sinned in doing so? Even if he thought he was doing the right thing? Trying to do the right thing? It was actually somehow worse for him to do this than not, because all action is sin?

All action is not sin. It is action. There is no moral import until intent is considered. Abraham killing Isaac is amoral until you consider his faith which was counted to him as righteousness.
Zobel
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No, I seem to be saying that God can and does inspire a nonbeliever to do Good, and that nonbeliever can assent to do the good placed in their heart by God, and God can help them do it, and be pleased that they did it.

That doesn't make it salvific. But that also doesn't make it sin, which is silly.
Zobel
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Go reread what he wrote. He said all actions by an unregenerated man are sinful, full stop. Intent is gone, even the action is gone. Everything a nonbeliever does is counted -against- them.
Cage_Stage
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k2aggie07 said:

The regeneration of our hearts comes after assent / will / rebirth not before. You've got it all backwards.
Yes, I know that's our disagreement. One of us has it backwards.

Quote:

And yes intent matters but your way makes it so that even if a person THINKS they're doing the right thing, even if they're TRYING to be unselfish, it's sin if they're not a believer.
I'm trying to figure out how this isn't pure Pelagianism. If natural man remains so unimpaired after the fall that he can choose to do good, and you define good as possible totally apart from faith.... why do you think Christ came?

Your position seems to be that man can will himself to good without faith. Frankly, I'm stunned by that.
Zobel
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Reread what Pelagianism is, I listed the summary of the canons from Carthage above.

Nowhere does it say that every action ever committed by a nonbeliever is sinful.

Yes a man can choose to do good. Otherwise how could he choose to believe in God? But never did I say that the good the man does is salvific. God can inspire people to His will for His pleasure and do good by them without their belief in Him as a prerequisite.

But that choice is always inspired by God, God always precedes him. As St John says the spark is struck by God, then God blows on it and fans the flames. How many sparks will God strike in a person's heart before that person believes? As many as necessary. And the choice always remains the man's. Do or don't do.

One choice is to believe. But there are many choices made by a person every day, and these can lead a man to belief. Following them to the point of belief in God doesn't make the previous actions sinful.
Cage_Stage
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k2aggie07 said:

No, I seem to be saying that God can and does inspire a nonbeliever to do Good, and that nonbeliever can assent to do the good placed in their heart by God, and God can help them do it, and be pleased that they did it.

That doesn't make it salvific. But that also doesn't make it sin, which is silly.
Sure, the sovereign God works all things for the good of His people. (Romans 8:28.) That's true of evil works (Gen. 50:20), and virtuous works done by unbelievers (Ezra 1:1).

But that doesn't mean it's not sinful when the works--good or evil--proceed from unbelief.
 
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