Again, "true faith" is a meaningless nonce phrase. What is "false faith"?
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But this is an incomplete example of the Gospel you teach.
Sure the Father warns the child of all the bad things in life, but if the child grows up and murders the mom or robs a bank, the father more or less says "well my warnings and threats were empty and you still get your full inheritance even though you didn't listen to a word I said."
If you have placed your faith in Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, for the forgiveness of your own sins in this life, you do not have to worry about eternal seperation from God, or hell. You are secured because of his promises and the sufficiency of His sacrifie.Quote:
In the end, your Gospel seems to make the majority of the New Testament hypothetical or "nice to have's" but nothing that I should actually worry about.
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So how does a person know if they have true faith or deceived faith, that is to say, no faith?
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How "Weak" can your faith be before your faith is no faith at all? How does one know if they are saved? Just by "trying" ?
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So once a person decides on their own evaluation that they have faith in Jesus they can never ever lose that salvation? Even if later they decide they did not, in fact, put their faith in Jesus?
k2aggie07 said:
So how does a person know if they have true faith or deceived faith, that is to say, no faith?
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"keep his commandments", "strive for peace and holiness", "work out your salvation", "make your calling and election sure", etc.
Sorta where I was when I started this thread. Protestants (at least the "Lordship" ones) and Catholics both agree that works follow faith, evidence faith, and are essential to salvation--but do not earn salvation.Quote:
...isn't this the orthodox position? I'm confused.
"Once saved always saved" is the "P" in TULIP, but it's not the same thing as unconditional election.AgLiving06 said:
After reading all the qualifications now necessary to be "once saved always saved," I'm thinking this is really "unconditional election" in disguise (ie. Reformed theology).
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InOrthodoxy, is theosis synonymous with justification? Is there any use for a judicial pronouncement of righteousness, if everyone ends up in the same place and how you experience that place depends on your attitude and nearness to God, rather than any wrath of God?
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Justification This term deals with how a person comes into and maintains a right relationship with God. Ultimately, this is made possible by the cross of Christ, by which He made expiation for our sins, granting us forgiveness and bringing us into a right relationship with God. Justification is accomplished at baptism and maintained through a life of obedience to God and confession of sins.
Sanctification Sanctification is the process of separating a person or thing for exclusive use by God or for God. Holiness, the result of sanctification, is the state of being exclusively devoted to God. This ultimately requires purification from sin and detachment from the world and material things. This is usually seen as an ongoing process that one undergoes throughout one's life. Sanctification is accomplished through ascetic struggle.
Glorification The final state of Christians perfected in Christ after His Second Coming. While this term (as a participle) was used in Romans 8:29, Orthodoxy normally understands this idea to be the culmination of theosis (see below).
Adoption The result of being engrafted into the Body of Christ through Baptism. We are adopted by God the Father as sons and co-heirs with Jesus Christ (Romans 8:15-17). Adoption is the state by which we may partake of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) through theosis (c.f. the series on theosis and adoption by Fr. Matthew Baker).
Faith This term can be understood biblically in two senses: (Paul) trust, fidelity, or loyalty to Christ that includes obedience and good works, or (James) simple cognitive belief (James 2:19) that must be complemented with good works.
Works Also, this term is used biblically in two senses: (Paul) the "works of the Torah" such as circumcision, kosher regulations, and the myriad of other ordinances of the Law of Moses that are incapable of establishing one as righteous before God, or (James) good works (in an ethical sense) and obedience before God which accompany genuine faith.
Theosis/Deification Both the result of being adopted as sons and daughters of God through baptism into Christ and the process of attaining to the fulness of the divine nature and conformity to the image of Christ. The concept of theosis has the potential to be wildly misunderstood when it is taken away from its moorings in the concept of adoption and the sacramental life of the Church. If it is understood in a "mystical" or gnostic way as a spiritualized state of elite initiates or recipients of some special grace withheld from other baptized members of Christ's Church, then we err from Patristic teaching on the matter.
Christus Victor Literally "Christ the Victor" (IC XC NIKA), this concept is perhaps the most common expression of our salvation in Orthodox Christianity. It is most aptly characterized by the Paschal apolytikion: "Christ is risen from the dead trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life." We are saved, because Christ has destroyed sin and death by His own death, and given life to us by His resurrection.
Once Saved Always Saved - happens the moment a person believes in Jesus (death, burial, resurrection) on their behalf. At this very moment the Holy Spirit indwells the life of the the believer. God secures their salvation due to transferring His rightousness to them - in Christ.Quote:
After reading all the qualifications now necessary to be "once saved always saved," I'm thinking this is really "unconditional election" in disguise (ie. Reformed theology).
Options:Quote:
"Once saved always saved" is the "P" in TULIP, but it's not the same thing as unconditional election.
My correction would be Justification is accomplished at the moment of belief and maintained by the God alone, the sealing of the Spirit, and the trustworhiness of Him to keep His promises. If maintaining a life of obediance to God and confession of sins is required then no one is justified as you do not know that you will have confessed all in the final moments of your life. Also, the standard of obediance is God's perfection which we all miserably fall short. This is the very reason Jesus died for ALL of our sins. He didn't go half way and then lay the burden on us to maintain our salvation.Quote:
Justification This term deals with how a person comes into and maintains a right relationship with God. Ultimately, this is made possible by the cross of Christ, by which He made expiation for our sins, granting us forgiveness and bringing us into a right relationship with God. Justification is accomplished at baptism and maintained through a life of obedience to God and confession of sins.
I could ask you the same thing about your denial of the real presence of the body and blood in communion.Quote:
The book of the bible that speaks to eternal life than any other book in the scriptures is John's gospel. Why is this book the most ingored when discussing this topic?
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Once Saved Always Saved - happens the moment a person believes in Jesus (death, burial, resurrection) on their behalf. At this very moment the Holy Spirit indwells the life of the the believer. God secures their salvation due to transferring His rightousness to them - in Christ.
Unconditional election - describes the predestination and election but doesn't mention the act of faith. (These two work hand in hand, are both true at the same time, and people have debated for centuries wrestling with the concept)
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Options:
A. A believer who is truly saved will persevere in living a relative holy life until they die.
B. A believer who is truly saved, wiil go to heaven because of the securing work of God alone.
I'm with option B. God offers eternal life freely, it's applied when we trust in Him alone, our security is made by Him alone. He gets the glory, honor, and credit alone.
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36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For, "In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay." 38 And, "But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back." 39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
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I could ask you the same thing about your denial of the real presence of the body and blood in communion
What is your explanation of:Quote:
If once saved always saved is real, there is absolutely no such thing as apostasy. Yet the Scriptures teach warn us against apostasy.
DirtDiver said:Quote:
I could ask you the same thing about your denial of the real presence of the body and blood in communion
Always ask away. Here are the reasons I do not believe this:
1. Understanding the context to know when a person is speaking figuratively.
2. Jesus didn't immediately cut off His finger in John 6 and and have them eat it.
3. Jesus explains what he means by Eat and Drink in the preceding context.
5 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
4. Jesus gives an explanation
61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
This passage is consistent again with my view that justification is always through faith (believing) in Jesus. He's just using figurative language to try to commicate that like the manna in the OT that gave them physical life, Jesus is the bread from God who gives eternal life (through believing) which is consistent with the rest of the Bible's teaching on the topic.
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Your description of "once saved always saved" reads a lot like a phone bill though. Sure you have an action, but then there's the fine print at the bottom with all these qualifiers.
In reality you're just saying that if someone falls away, they never actually believed so it wasn't true salvation.
Neither view is biblical, but that's ok.
What are all of the options of what is being denied in the context? The word 'deny' here is the exact same word used for Peter's denial of Jesus. If denial equals loss of salvation did Peter lose His salvation in this moment?Quote:
For starters the entirety of the hymn or saying is:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
if we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Second, our faithlessness does not change God. This is not a refutation of once saved always saved. Apostasy or any sin doesn't close the door on a relationship with God. He is always faithful to us and will forgive us. But if we deny Him, He will deny us.
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Translation: the Bible means what it plainly says except when I want it to mean something else.
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Instead of trying to make the bible consistent with what you want it to say, shouldn't you be trying to understand how the Church has understood the Bible?
1 Timothy 3:15: but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
I apologize for any confusion. There were quite a few cases being made. The case for salvation being free, the case for eternal security, the case for rewards vs salvation, the case for Justification in the eyes of God vs the eyes of man, the case for the trustworthiness of Jesus to keep His promises. If there's anything that seemed to vary I would be happy to try and clarify.Quote:
This is a really odd discussion. It seems your answers vary from post to post.