Again, "true faith" is a meaningless nonce phrase. What is "false faith"?

Assent without repentance, works, holiness, etc.

So... not faith at all then.

Objectively yes. Subjectively no. Hence, "false" or "deceived" faith.

So how does a person know if they have true faith or deceived faith, that is to say, no faith?

"keep his commandments", "strive for peace and holiness", "work out your salvation", "make your calling and election sure", etc.

...isn't this the orthodox position? I'm confused.

I guess I'm orthodox then.

Sorry all, I had quoted and posted to where it looks like my words, I just corrected my last post.

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But this is an incomplete example of the Gospel you teach.

Sure the Father warns the child of all the bad things in life, but if the child grows up and murders the mom or robs a bank, the father more or less says "well my warnings and threats were empty and you still get your full inheritance even though you didn't listen to a word I said."

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You are equating inheritance with justification. I believe the Bible teaches a clear distinction between the two.

All people who put their faith in Jesus will be saved (even if you are on death row, nailed to a cross for legit crimes that you have committed) - Today you will be with me in paradise. - Jesus

Once a person becomes a Christian, eternal life is the gift. Full inheritance, rewards, crown rewards, etc are not. I'm not sure what the 'suffer loss" is exactly but we know that it's not eternal life.

11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 1 Cor 3:11

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In the end, your Gospel seems to make the majority of the New Testament hypothetical or "nice to have's" but nothing that I should actually worry about.

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If you have placed your faith in Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, for the forgiveness of your own sins in this life, you do not have to worry about eternal seperation from God, or hell. You are secured because of his promises and the sufficiency of His sacrifie.

If you choose to live a life of sin as a believer you stand to lose: fellowship with God, inheritance, eternal honor, rewards, your physical life, your health, fellowship with others, a grieving of the Holy Spirit inside of you which will produce a great conviction. You put Christ to open shame again. And you would be considered foolish, as what benefit has sin ever produced? You'll have to stand before the judgement seat of Christ and make your case. There's also fear, the loss of confidence or assurance of salvation which becomes terrifying.

Every man is raised to eternal life. Christ defeated death, not one is left in the tomb.

Unless you're an annihilationist?

How "Weak" can your faith be before your faith is no faith at all?

How does one know if they are saved? Just by "trying" ?

St Justin Martyr (150s):
"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin' (Ps. 32:2). That is, having repented of his sins, he can receive remission of them from God. But this is not as you [Jews] deceive yourselves, and some others who resemble you in this. For they say, that even though they remain sinners, the Lord will not impute sin unto them, because they know God."

"Let those who are not found living as he taught, be understood not to be Christians, even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ. For it is not those who make profession, but those who do the works, who will be saved."

St Irenaeus (150s):
"Those who do not obey him, being disinherited by him, have ceased to be his sons."

"We should not therefore, as the presbyter remarks, be puffed up, nor be severe upon them of olden times. Rather, we should fear ourselves, least perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but are shut out from his kingdom. And for that reason, Paul said, 'For is [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not you."

St Melito (170):
"He has set before you all of these things, and shows you that, if you follow after evil, you will be condemned for your evil deeds. But, if you follow goodness, you will receive from him abundant good, together with immortal life forever."

St Cyprian (258):
"You are still in the world. You are still in the battlefield. You daily fight for your lives. So you must be careful, that what you have begun to be with such a blessed commencement will be consummated in you. It is a small thing to have first received something. It is a greater thing to be able to keep that which you have attained. Faith itself and the saving birth do not make alive by merely being received. Rather, they must be preserved. It is not the actual attainment, but the perfecting, that keeps a man for God. The Lord taught this in his instruction when he said, 'Look! You have been made whole. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you. Solomon, Saul, and many others were able to keep the grace given to them so long as they walked in the Lord's ways. However, when the discipline of the Lord was forsaken by them, grace also forsook them."

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So how does a person know if they have true faith or deceived faith, that is to say, no faith?

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I think the starting point is to always identify the object of one's faith. One either believes that Jesus died, was buried and rose again as a payment for all of thier personal sins and they are trusting in Him and His work alone, or they are trusting in something else.

Once a person believes in Jesus through faith, they are saved. They will grow in the assurance (confidence) of their faith the more they examine the scriptures, live a life of the 2 Peter qualities, and always remember that the object is Jesus alone.

Likewise a person can identify if they have deceived faith or no faith by identifying what the object of their faith is. If it's anything other than Jesus then then you have discovered the deceived or misplaced faith.

So once a person decides on their own evaluation that they have faith in Jesus they can never ever lose that salvation? Even if later they decide they did not, in fact, put their faith in Jesus?

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How "Weak" can your faith be before your faith is no faith at all? How does one know if they are saved? Just by "trying" ?

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I would say this ties into the object of faith again. Here's an example:

If I have the weakest faith in the world and step out onto strong ice, my faith is not what's saving me, it's the strengh of the ice.
If I have the strongest faith in the world and step out on onto thin ice, it's not my faith that sank me, it was the weakness of the object of my faith.

When it comes to God...
If I have the weakest faith in the world and put my faith in Jesus and his work and resurrection as payment for my sins, then my faith is not what's saving me, it's the person of Jesus.
If I have the strongest faith in the world and put my faith in anyone but Jesus, it's not my faith that sank me, it was the weakness of the object of my faith.

The starting point to knowing if one is saved: Do I trust in Jesus alone, His death and resurrection for the forgivness of my sins, or am I trusting in something else?

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (meaning that none of this really happened)...3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,...11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. 1 Cor 15

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

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So once a person decides on their own evaluation that they have faith in Jesus they can never ever lose that salvation? Even if later they decide they did not, in fact, put their faith in Jesus?

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We need some clarification of that statement: Notice what I'm not saying...
If a person believes that Jesus lived historically - this is not the same thing as trusting in Jesus' death and resurrection for the forgiveness of my own personal sins.
If a person believes that Jesus was a good person, great moral teacher, this is not the same.
If a person believes that attending a certain church, getting baptized, taking a sacrement, doing good works, being a good moral person, reading the Bible, saves me, then this is not the same thing as faith in Jesus.

This is what faith in Jesus is...
God promised Abe His children would be like the stars, Abe looked up at the stars and believe God that He could do that, in the same way Jesus was lifed up on a cross and died for all of my sins and your sins and He walked out of the grave, and if I believe that, meaning I accept His sacrifice on my behalf, I'm saved because He saves me. This salvation is never based on my effort or good works, it's based soley on the righteous, merciful, gracious nature of Jesus. In the same way I do not earn my salvation, I do not maintain my salvation. It's the hand of God, the sealing of the spirit, the promises and nature of the Jesus that maintains my salvation.

I will never be able to brag about anything in heaven except my Savior.

People convince themselves all of the time that they are either saved or have the only path to God. The line in the sand is always Jesus and His work on our behalf. We either trust Him or we don't.

You didn't answer the question.

After reading all the qualifications now necessary to be "once saved always saved," I'm thinking this is really "unconditional election" in disguise (ie. Reformed theology).

k2aggie07 said:

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So how does a person know if they have true faith or deceived faith, that is to say, no faith?

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"keep his commandments", "strive for peace and holiness", "work out your salvation", "make your calling and election sure", etc.

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...isn't this the orthodox position? I'm confused.

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Sorta where I was when I started this thread. Protestants (at least the "Lordship" ones) and Catholics both agree that works follow faith, evidence faith, and are essential to salvation--but do not earn salvation.

Really, I think FaithfulAg flushed out the difference on page 1. For Protestants, faith justifies at the outset and then independently moves you to produce good works (i.e., sanctifies). If you don't have works, you should probably go back to square 1. Catholics don't view justification as a one-time deal; what Protestants think of as sanctification is just a continuing of the justification process until the end of your physical life.

The Free Grace thing is something else, and I'd say it's a potential pitfall of the "faith alone" mantra, if taken to extremes.

K2, in Orthodoxy, is theosis synonymous with justification? Is there any use for a judicial pronouncement of righteousness, if everyone ends up in the same place and how you experience that place depends on your attitude and nearness to God, rather than any wrath of God?

AgLiving06 said:

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After reading all the qualifications now necessary to be "once saved always saved," I'm thinking this is really "unconditional election" in disguise (ie. Reformed theology).

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"Once saved always saved" is the "P" in TULIP, but it's not the same thing as unconditional election.

For instance, Lutherans subscribe to a brand of predestination, but they generally believe salvation can be lost through unbelief. On the other hand, most (i.e., non-Reformed) Baptists believe in free will and preservation. So, those don't necessarily go together.

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InOrthodoxy, is theosis synonymous with justification? Is there any use for a judicial pronouncement of righteousness, if everyone ends up in the same place and how you experience that place depends on your attitude and nearness to God, rather than any wrath of God?

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No. Theosis is closer to sanctification culminating in glorification, I suppose, but it is also used to describe the entire process.

And there is no judicial or forensic salvation in Orthodoxy. We believe in actual grace that actually changes us.

Eric Jobe gave this summary:

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Justification This term deals with how a person comes into and maintains a right relationship with God. Ultimately, this is made possible by the cross of Christ, by which He made expiation for our sins, granting us forgiveness and bringing us into a right relationship with God. Justification is accomplished at baptism and maintained through a life of obedience to God and confession of sins.

Sanctification Sanctification is the process of separating a person or thing for exclusive use by God or for God. Holiness, the result of sanctification, is the state of being exclusively devoted to God. This ultimately requires purification from sin and detachment from the world and material things. This is usually seen as an ongoing process that one undergoes throughout one's life. Sanctification is accomplished through ascetic struggle.

Glorification The final state of Christians perfected in Christ after His Second Coming. While this term (as a participle) was used in Romans 8:29, Orthodoxy normally understands this idea to be the culmination of theosis (see below).

Adoption The result of being engrafted into the Body of Christ through Baptism. We are adopted by God the Father as sons and co-heirs with Jesus Christ (Romans 8:15-17). Adoption is the state by which we may partake of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) through theosis (c.f. the series on theosis and adoption by Fr. Matthew Baker).

Faith This term can be understood biblically in two senses: (Paul) trust, fidelity, or loyalty to Christ that includes obedience and good works, or (James) simple cognitive belief (James 2:19) that must be complemented with good works.

Works Also, this term is used biblically in two senses: (Paul) the "works of the Torah" such as circumcision, kosher regulations, and the myriad of other ordinances of the Law of Moses that are incapable of establishing one as righteous before God, or (James) good works (in an ethical sense) and obedience before God which accompany genuine faith.

Theosis/Deification Both the result of being adopted as sons and daughters of God through baptism into Christ and the process of attaining to the fulness of the divine nature and conformity to the image of Christ. The concept of theosis has the potential to be wildly misunderstood when it is taken away from its moorings in the concept of adoption and the sacramental life of the Church. If it is understood in a "mystical" or gnostic way as a spiritualized state of elite initiates or recipients of some special grace withheld from other baptized members of Christ's Church, then we err from Patristic teaching on the matter.

Christus Victor Literally "Christ the Victor" (IC XC NIKA), this concept is perhaps the most common expression of our salvation in Orthodox Christianity. It is most aptly characterized by the Paschal apolytikion: "Christ is risen from the dead trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life." We are saved, because Christ has destroyed sin and death by His own death, and given life to us by His resurrection.

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After reading all the qualifications now necessary to be "once saved always saved," I'm thinking this is really "unconditional election" in disguise (ie. Reformed theology).

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Once Saved Always Saved - happens the moment a person believes in Jesus (death, burial, resurrection) on their behalf. At this very moment the Holy Spirit indwells the life of the the believer. God secures their salvation due to transferring His rightousness to them - in Christ.

Unconditional election - describes the predestination and election but doesn't mention the act of faith. (These two work hand in hand, are both true at the same time, and people have debated for centuries wrestling with the concept)

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"Once saved always saved" is the "P" in TULIP, but it's not the same thing as unconditional election.

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Options:
A. A believer who is truly saved will persevere in living a relative holy life until they die.
B. A believer who is truly saved, wiil go to heaven because of the securing work of God alone.

I'm with option B. God offers eternal life freely, it's applied when we trust in Him alone, our security is made by Him alone. He gets the glory, honor, and credit alone.

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Justification This term deals with how a person comes into and maintains a right relationship with God. Ultimately, this is made possible by the cross of Christ, by which He made expiation for our sins, granting us forgiveness and bringing us into a right relationship with God. Justification is accomplished at baptism and maintained through a life of obedience to God and confession of sins.

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My correction would be Justification is accomplished at the moment of belief and maintained by the God alone, the sealing of the Spirit, and the trustworhiness of Him to keep His promises. If maintaining a life of obediance to God and confession of sins is required then no one is justified as you do not know that you will have confessed all in the final moments of your life. Also, the standard of obediance is God's perfection which we all miserably fall short. This is the very reason Jesus died for ALL of our sins. He didn't go half way and then lay the burden on us to maintain our salvation.

John 7, Acts 19, Eph 1 - receiving the Holy Spirit is connected to the Key word: Believe, not baptism
Acts 2 can be a little confusing but what is happening before 2:38? The gospel is being preached and being received by faith.
Acts 10 the holy Spirit is received before baptism.

The book of the bible that speaks to eternal life than any other book in the scriptures is John's gospel. Why is this book the most ingored when discussing this topic?

30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:32

Salvation is a free gift applied through faith in Jesus.
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3

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The book of the bible that speaks to eternal life than any other book in the scriptures is John's gospel. Why is this book the most ingored when discussing this topic?

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I could ask you the same thing about your denial of the real presence of the body and blood in communion.

It isn't ignored, it's just not used to the detriment of the other Scriptures. They are in harmony, not competition.

If once saved always saved is real, there is absolutely no such thing as apostasy. Yet the Scriptures teach warn us against apostasy.

Even if you make the error of drawing an equivalence between salvation and justification, how do you reconcile St Paul's use of the word justified in the future tense if it happens now? It was the quote you glossed over.

In Romans he even says the declaration of our righteousness (justified, dikaioo) will happen at the judgment ("it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous...this will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ..." Romans 2:13,16).

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Once Saved Always Saved - happens the moment a person believes in Jesus (death, burial, resurrection) on their behalf. At this very moment the Holy Spirit indwells the life of the the believer. God secures their salvation due to transferring His rightousness to them - in Christ.

Unconditional election - describes the predestination and election but doesn't mention the act of faith. (These two work hand in hand, are both true at the same time, and people have debated for centuries wrestling with the concept)

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Your description of "once saved always saved" reads a lot like a phone bill though. Sure you have an action, but then there's the fine print at the bottom with all these qualifiers.

In reality you're just saying that if someone falls away, they never actually believed so it wasn't true salvation.

Neither view is biblical, but that's ok.

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Options:
A. A believer who is truly saved will persevere in living a relative holy life until they die.
B. A believer who is truly saved, wiil go to heaven because of the securing work of God alone.

I'm with option B. God offers eternal life freely, it's applied when we trust in Him alone, our security is made by Him alone. He gets the glory, honor, and credit alone.

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That's odd, the writer of Hebrews was clearly for Option A which is all about perseverance in the faith.

Hebrews 10:36 - 39

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36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For, "In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay." 38 And, "But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back." 39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

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I could ask you the same thing about your denial of the real presence of the body and blood in communion

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Always ask away. Here are the reasons I do not believe this:
1. Understanding the context to know when a person is speaking figuratively.
2. Jesus didn't immediately cut off His finger in John 6 and and have them eat it.
3. Jesus explains what he means by Eat and Drink in the preceding context.
5 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
4. Jesus gives an explanation
61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

This passage is consistent again with my view that justification is always through faith (believing) in Jesus. He's just using figurative language to try to commicate that like the manna in the OT that gave them physical life, Jesus is the bread from God who gives eternal life (through believing) which is consistent with the rest of the Bible's teaching on the topic.

Translation: the Bible means what it plainly says except when I want it to mean something else.

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If once saved always saved is real, there is absolutely no such thing as apostasy. Yet the Scriptures teach warn us against apostasy.

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What is your explanation of:

2 Tim. 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Remember in previous posts about all of the things that are true of a believer at the very moment of faith. Jesus does not reneg on these promises. There are books written to believers in the NT who have fallen away in many different areas of life, whether it's doctrine or obediance. There are given vigeous assurance of their salvation. (1 Cor 1) There are consequences of 'falling away' but eternity in the life of a believer is never on the table. (They are sealed by the Spirit until the day of redemption' by God's doing.

For starters the entirety of the hymn or saying is:

For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
if we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Second, our faithlessness does not change God. This is not a refutation of once saved always saved. Apostasy or any sin doesn't close the door on a relationship with God. He is always faithful to us and will forgive us. But if we deny Him, He will deny us.

DirtDiver said:

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I could ask you the same thing about your denial of the real presence of the body and blood in communion

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Always ask away. Here are the reasons I do not believe this:
1. Understanding the context to know when a person is speaking figuratively.
2. Jesus didn't immediately cut off His finger in John 6 and and have them eat it.
3. Jesus explains what he means by Eat and Drink in the preceding context.
5 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
4. Jesus gives an explanation
61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

This passage is consistent again with my view that justification is always through faith (believing) in Jesus. He's just using figurative language to try to commicate that like the manna in the OT that gave them physical life, Jesus is the bread from God who gives eternal life (through believing) which is consistent with the rest of the Bible's teaching on the topic.

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Honest question.

Instead of trying to make the bible consistent with what you want it to say, shouldn't you be trying to understand how the Church has understood the Bible?

1 Timothy 3:15: but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I had someone hand me a pamphlet this weekend with Bible verses on it.

On the last page was a the standard "Do you believe Christ is your savior...." with a check box next to it. There was also a box where you could check he wasn't. I didn't realize what I was being handed at the time, but would really have liked to know if I was saved if I checked the right box.

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Your description of "once saved always saved" reads a lot like a phone bill though. Sure you have an action, but then there's the fine print at the bottom with all these qualifiers.

In reality you're just saying that if someone falls away, they never actually believed so it wasn't true salvation.

Neither view is biblical, but that's ok.

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This is actually the view I'm speaking against. My view is simply: We are all sinners. The very moment we believe/trust/accept that Jesus died for me and paid the price of my sins and believe that He rose from the dead, we are saved eternally. We are positionally righteousness in Gods eyes. This is a moment of new birth. The believer will struggle and wrestle with sin until thier physical death.

Once a person receives the Holy Spirit through faith that gift is irrevocable. If that person is faithless, falls away into sin, there will be consequences and loving discipline for a disobediant child but not a seperation: Based upon the nature alone of our savior.

Again at the moment of faith:
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

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For starters the entirety of the hymn or saying is:

For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
if we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Second, our faithlessness does not change God. This is not a refutation of once saved always saved. Apostasy or any sin doesn't close the door on a relationship with God. He is always faithful to us and will forgive us. But if we deny Him, He will deny us.

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What are all of the options of what is being denied in the context? The word 'deny' here is the exact same word used for Peter's denial of Jesus. If denial equals loss of salvation did Peter lose His salvation in this moment?

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Translation: the Bible means what it plainly says except when I want it to mean something else.

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I believe the Bible should be taken litterally. Taking it literally includes comprehending the text in the genre it's written. Is figurative language being used in John? If I interpret John 6 and ignore the genre I must do that with the entire book. Look at what happens...

Are you a human, a sheep, a branch?
Which answer is correct? Is Jesus God, a word, a vine, a good shepherd, the light of the world, a door, the resurrection and life, in the Father, the king of the Jews?

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Instead of trying to make the bible consistent with what you want it to say, shouldn't you be trying to understand how the Church has understood the Bible?

1 Timothy 3:15: but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

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My first question would be which church? The catholic church, the church in 1 century Corinth, Ephesus, the anglican church, the church of latter day saints, the orthodox church, baptist, church of Christ?

I believe it's every church leader and teacher's responsibility to teach sound doctrine and follow the scriptures without going beyond what's written. These same scriptures are available to you and me. This allows me to evaluate which of the churches above align more with the entire word of God.

I was baptized after I put my faith in Jesus. I partook of communion after I accepted Jesus as my savior and still do. If a church teaches that a person who believes in Jesus, but does not get baptized or receives the Holy Spirit upon water baptism or must take communion in order to be saved, then I disagree with that doctrine and church.

What's wrong with trusting in Jesus alone for justification? Consider the famous baptist evangelistic question. If Jesus were to ask you why should I let you in, what would you say? How would he feel about the answers.

Option A:

• because I've never denied you
• I went to the most correct church with the best doctrine
• because I confessed all of my sins
• because I was baptized
• because I believe the bread becomes your body in communion
• because I've kept all of your commands
• because I'm holy as you are holy
• because I endured to the end with perseverance and faithfulness

Option B:
God, based upon my actions you should not let me in. You are perfectly Holy, righteous, and good, and I'm a wretched sinner not worthy to be in your presence. I have sinned more times than I could count or ever confess. Even on days where I do good things sometimes I do them with the wrong motivation or depending on my own strength without acknowleding you, But God, I was told that you sent your Son Jesus to die for everything that I've ever done wrong as a gift to me. Thank you for sending Him and I accept His life and pardon on my behalf. Thank you for raising Him from the dead and promising to do the same for me.

...that no man should boast.

This is a really odd discussion. It seems your answers vary from post to post.

I'm going to step away. There's really not much to discuss here anymore.

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This is a really odd discussion. It seems your answers vary from post to post.

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I apologize for any confusion. There were quite a few cases being made. The case for salvation being free, the case for eternal security, the case for rewards vs salvation, the case for Justification in the eyes of God vs the eyes of man, the case for the trustworthiness of Jesus to keep His promises. If there's anything that seemed to vary I would be happy to try and clarify.

I did notice where at once point someone assumed that I would say a person was not a believer in the first place if it wasn't evidenced by works but this assumption was the view of others and not mine.