AstroAg17 said:

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That article doesn't say what you said at all. Did you link the wrong one or something?

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Im working. I'll have to look it up later.

However, I think we can both agree that the speed of light is affected by the temperature and the density of the air/space it is traveling through. Would you grant that?

AstroAg17 said:

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Anyone would. c is the speed of light in a vacuum.

The article you linked basically says that you can alter the structure of light to slow it down, even in a vacuum. Interesting if true, but that's over my head and it doesn't support the argument you want to make.

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If the vaccum changes, then the speed of light would be affected, agreed?

Aggie4Life02 said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Anyone would. c is the speed of light in a vacuum.

The article you linked basically says that you can alter the structure of light to slow it down, even in a vacuum. Interesting if true, but that's over my head and it doesn't support the argument you want to make.

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If the vaccum changes, then the speed of light would be affected, agreed?

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So now the suggestion is not that the speed of light is slowing down, but that space isn't really a vaccum?

Woody2006 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Anyone would. c is the speed of light in a vacuum.

The article you linked basically says that you can alter the structure of light to slow it down, even in a vacuum. Interesting if true, but that's over my head and it doesn't support the argument you want to make.

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If the vaccum changes, then the speed of light would be affected, agreed?

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So now the suggestion is not that the speed of light is slowing down, but that space isn't really a vaccum?

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In a perfect vacuum at absolute zero, there exists what's called the ZPE or zero point energy. It is one of the most powerful forces in the universe. The strength of the ZPE affects the speed at which light travels.

If the ZPE can be shown to be changing, this is imperial proof that the vacuum of space is changing. If the vacuum is changing, the speed of light will change.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Which is another way of saying they assume the laws off the universe don't change willy nilly. Generally even creationists are reluctant to argue this point and instead try to argue that the initial amounts are off or events happened that added or reduced quantities (this fails also).

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In an atheistic worldview, there is no epistimic warrant for saying that the laws of nature are constant. That's just a matter of faith. You are no longer dealing in science, but philosophy.

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Sure there is. We can find and measure changes that occur or events outside what the math and observations tell us to expect. Folks like you want the universe to be unmeasurable and inconstant to open a window for your young-universe beliefs without considering the philosophical ramifications for your own conception of God.

Dr. Watson said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Which is another way of saying they assume the laws off the universe don't change willy nilly. Generally even creationists are reluctant to argue this point and instead try to argue that the initial amounts are off or events happened that added or reduced quantities (this fails also).

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In an atheistic worldview, there is no epistimic warrant for saying that the laws of nature are constant. That's just a matter of faith. You are no longer dealing in science, but philosophy.

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Sure there is. We can find and measure changes that occur or events outside what the math and observations tell us to expect. Folks like you want the universe to be unmeasurable and inconstant to open a window for your young-universe beliefs without considering the philosophical ramifications for your own conception of God.

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Everyone has their ultimate assumptions.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Which is another way of saying they assume the laws off the universe don't change willy nilly. Generally even creationists are reluctant to argue this point and instead try to argue that the initial amounts are off or events happened that added or reduced quantities (this fails also).

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In an atheistic worldview, there is no epistimic warrant for saying that the laws of nature are constant. That's just a matter of faith. You are no longer dealing in science, but philosophy.

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Sure there is. We can find and measure changes that occur or events outside what the math and observations tell us to expect. Folks like you want the universe to be unmeasurable and inconstant to open a window for your young-universe beliefs without considering the philosophical ramifications for your own conception of God.

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Everyone has their ultimate assumptions.

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Cop out.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Anyone would. c is the speed of light in a vacuum.

The article you linked basically says that you can alter the structure of light to slow it down, even in a vacuum. Interesting if true, but that's over my head and it doesn't support the argument you want to make.

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If the vaccum changes, then the speed of light would be affected, agreed?

---

So now the suggestion is not that the speed of light is slowing down, but that space isn't really a vaccum?

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In a perfect vacuum at absolute zero, there exists what's called the ZPE or zero point energy. It is one of the most powerful forces in the universe. The strength of the ZPE affects the speed at which light travels.

If the ZPE can be shown to be changing, this is imperial proof that the vacuum of space is changing. If the vacuum is changing, the speed of light will change.

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You have made a lot of claims that are then relegated to a lot of "ifs".

Do you actually believe the speed of light is changing, or are you grasping wildly at the idea because you need it to be true?

Nothing you've shown so far in any way supports the idea that the speed of light is slowing down.

Dr. Watson said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Which is another way of saying they assume the laws off the universe don't change willy nilly. Generally even creationists are reluctant to argue this point and instead try to argue that the initial amounts are off or events happened that added or reduced quantities (this fails also).

---

In an atheistic worldview, there is no epistimic warrant for saying that the laws of nature are constant. That's just a matter of faith. You are no longer dealing in science, but philosophy.

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Sure there is. We can find and measure changes that occur or events outside what the math and observations tell us to expect. Folks like you want the universe to be unmeasurable and inconstant to open a window for your young-universe beliefs without considering the philosophical ramifications for your own conception of God.

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Everyone has their ultimate assumptions.

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Cop out.

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It's not a cop out. You are feigning neutrality. Your ultimate assumption is either empiricism or scientism. It allows you to assume uniformitarianism without epistemic warrant.

Woody2006 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Anyone would. c is the speed of light in a vacuum.

The article you linked basically says that you can alter the structure of light to slow it down, even in a vacuum. Interesting if true, but that's over my head and it doesn't support the argument you want to make.

---

If the vaccum changes, then the speed of light would be affected, agreed?

---

So now the suggestion is not that the speed of light is slowing down, but that space isn't really a vaccum?

---

In a perfect vacuum at absolute zero, there exists what's called the ZPE or zero point energy. It is one of the most powerful forces in the universe. The strength of the ZPE affects the speed at which light travels.

If the ZPE can be shown to be changing, this is imperial proof that the vacuum of space is changing. If the vacuum is changing, the speed of light will change.

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You have made a lot of claims that are then relegated to a lot of "ifs".

Do you actually believe the speed of light is changing, or are you grasping wildly at the idea because you need it to be true?

Nothing you've shown so far in any way supports the idea that the speed of light is slowing down.

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Yes I believe that the speed of light is changing. I'm not a scientist and could be wrong.

Quote:

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Yes I believe that the speed of light is changing. I'm not a scientist and could be wrong.

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We can and do measure this all the time. Explain the physics involved. Why would the vacuum of an expanding universe become less of a vacuum?

Uniformitarianism is an unprovable assumption but it is an incredible useful, fruitful, and essential one for a huge variety of scientific fields. If we didn't use it, we wouldn't know fck-all about the earth or the universe. What would even be the point if for every single kind of investigation of pre-history we had to factor in some unknowable, unquantifiable magic in which the laws of physics were suspended, rendering any hypothesis completely unverifiable? We would know nothing because God inconveniently didn't tell us when exactly the laws of the universe were suspended, where, and for how long.

Not in geology. Thats what i had in mind.

Woody2006 said:

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Quote:

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Yes I believe that the speed of light is changing. I'm not a scientist and could be wrong.

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We can and do measure this all the time. Explain the physics involved. Why would the vacuum of an expanding universe become less of a vacuum?

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If the ZPE is increasing, which I've read reports that such increases have been measured, it would slow the speed of light over time. If the speed of light were significantly higher in the past, it would make the universe appear older than it is if we assume the speed of light was constant.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Quote:

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Yes I believe that the speed of light is changing. I'm not a scientist and could be wrong.

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We can and do measure this all the time. Explain the physics involved. Why would the vacuum of an expanding universe become less of a vacuum?

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If the ZPE is increasing, which I've read reports that such increases have been measured, it would slow the speed of light over time. If the speed of light were significantly higher in the past, it would make the universe appear older than it is if we assume the speed of light was constant.

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I feel like you have ignored Astro's point regarding this line of thought.

Do the calculation. How much faster would the speed of light have had to have been in the past to suggest the age of the universe is in the 10s of thousands of years range rather than 13.8 billion years?

You are essentially arguing (or at least hoping) that despite an ever-accelerating, expanding universe leading to far less material that photons could be slowed down by that light used to move at speeds many orders of magnitude faster than it does today. Not only this, but you're doing so despite strong evidence that the speed of light has not, in fact, changed over time.

The other thing to consider is that if the Earth is at or near the center of the universe, time dilation would mean that the areas of the universe furthest away from Earth would experience time significantly faster than Earth, meaning the outskirts of the universe would experience hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years for each rotation of the Earth around the sun. Meaning that the further away from the earth one goes, the older the universe is relative to the age of the Earth.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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The other thing to consider is that if the Earth is at or near the center of the universe, time dilation would mean that the areas of the universe furthest away from Earth would experience time significantly faster than Earth, meaning the outskirts of the universe would experience hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years for each rotation of the Earth around the sun. Meaning that the further away from the earth one goes, the older the universe is relative to the age of the Earth.

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Leaving aside the fact that no one has any clue where the center of the universe is, I don't understand your point about time dilation. You would have to assume the Earth doesn't move and everything else moves insanely fast for this to be the case.

It wouldn't have any effect on the speed of light, but if all celestial bodies are moving, then time dilation really doesn't come into play to any significant degree. It's not like stars many light years away are moving anywhere near the speed of light...