Record shattering 2.7 million year ice core

3,979 Views | 94 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by AstroAg17
Marco Esquandolas
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AG
A&M prof quoted, btw.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/record-shattering-27-million-year-old-ice-core-reveals-start-ice-ages

excerpt:
Quote:

Scientists announced today that a core drilled in Antarctica has yielded 2.7-million-year-old ice, an astonishing find 1.7 million years older than the previous record-holder. Bubbles in the ice contain greenhouse gases from Earth's atmosphere at a time when the planet's cycles of glacial advance and retreat were just beginning, potentially offering clues to what triggered the ice ages. That information alone makes the value of the sample "incredible," says David Shuster, a geochemist at the University of California, Berkeley, who is unaffiliated with the research. "This is the only sample of ancient Earth's atmosphere that we have access to."
Described at the Goldschmidt Conference in Paris by Yuzhen Yan, a graduate student at Princeton University, the ice revealed atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) levels that did not exceed 300 parts per million, well below today's levels. Some models of ancient climate predict that such relatively low levels would be needed to tip Earth into a series of ice ages. But some proxies gleaned from the fossils of animals that lived in shallow oceans had indicated higher CO2 levels. If the new result holds up, says Yige Zhang, a paleoclimatologist at Texas A&M University in College Station, the proxies will need to be recalibrated. "We have some work to do."
The discovery also points the way to finding even older ice, because it comes from a largely ignored "blue ice" area, where peculiar dynamics can preserve old layers. Although blue ice areas offer only a fragmentary view of the past, they may turn into prime hunting grounds for ancient ice, says Ed Brook, a geochemist on the discovery team at Oregon State University in Corvallis. "Ice that's this old really makes people stand up and notice," he says. "We're just scratching the surface."


Ice cores from Greenland and Antarctica are mainstays of modern climate science. Traditionally, scientists drill in places where ice layers accumulate year after year, undisturbed by glacial flows. The long layer cake records from deep sites in the center of Antarctica reveal how greenhouse gases have surged and ebbed across hundreds of thousands of years. But because heat from the bedrock below can melt the deepest, oldest ice, the approach has not yielded ice any older than 800,000 years, from a core drilled at Antarctica's Dome C in 2004.

The Princeton-led team went after ancient ice sitting far closer to the surface, in the Allan Hills, a wind-swept region of East Antarctica 200 kilometers from McMurdo Station that is famous for preserving ancient meteorites. In such blue ice areasjust 1% of the continent's surfacethe ice flows across rocky ridges, tipping the record on its side. Deep, old layers are driven up, while wind strips away snow and younger ice, revealing the lustrous blue of compressed ice below. But these contortions also confound the neat ordering of the annual layersmaking it impossible to date the ice by counting them.

Michael Bender, a Princeton geochemist who spearheaded the project, solved the problem by finding a way to date chunks of ice directly from trace amounts of argon and potassium gases they contain. Although not as precise as other dating methods, Bender says, the technique can date ice to within 100,000 years or so.
In 2010, the team drilled their first hole at the Allan Hills, in a place where the ice was shallow and thought to be ascending a hill, with a chance of being stuck against bedrock. They drilled horizontally, toward the hill, in the hopes that the ice would get older as they drilled farther. They ran out of time after 128 meters, before they reached bedrock, but the unfinished core yielded some chunks of ice that were 1 million years old. It was the first sample older than 800,000 years, from a crucial time when glacial periods were switching from occurring every 40,000 years or so to every 100,000 years.

In 2015, the team returned to try again. The environment was harsh, with constant wind shearing their clutch of tents. "Cold is one thing," says Princeton geochemist John Higgins, "but windy cold is just another beast." Yet they were able to drill the remaining 20 meters to bedrock, and found the ice that, along with several other new cores, yielded the ancient samples.

It is unlikely that any traditional efforts will match the Allan Hills sample in age, says John Goodge, a geologist at the University of Minnesota in Duluth. Several teams are pursuing sites that may go back as far as 1.5 million yearsbut even that's hopeful, says Goodge, a leader of a U.S. team planning to rapidly drill a deep ice site in the Antarctic interior. "In that sense, the Allan Hills ice core may stand on its own for some time," he says.

94chem
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I have a geologist friend who did graduate work looking for rocks in Hawaii. Seems like a better gig than Antarctica.
PacifistAg
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AG
Fascinating. Thanks for sharing. My son will love hearing about this.
Woody2006
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It only "appears" to be 2.7 million years old.
Star Wars Memes Only
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Yup, correctly scaled with the Bible you will see that this ice core was really created some time in late 2014.
Sapper Redux
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Woody2006 said:

It only "appears" to be 2.7 million years old.


God created the Antarctic ice core with measurable CO2 and evidence of climate change from millions of years ago because it needed the appearance, chemical structure, and testable data of age going back way before it was actually created. You know, because that's logical and stuff.
Sapper Redux
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dargscisyhp said:

Yup, correctly scaled with the Bible you will see that this ice core was really created some time in late 2014.


It's possible that ice froze much faster in the past and is slowing down.
Aggrad08
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Well you see, this ice was created mature. Just like Adam was created as an adult this ice must appear millions of years old because new ice just isn't the same.
FlyFish95
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Dr. Watson said:

Woody2006 said:

It only "appears" to be 2.7 million years old.


God created the Antarctic ice core with measurable CO2 and evidence of climate change from millions of years ago because it needed the appearance, chemical structure, and testable data of age going back way before it was actually created. You know, because that's logical and stuff.
I don't understand why some of you get so worked up over a few nut jobs who think the earth is 6,000 years old, as if it's mainstream thinking.
Sapper Redux
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More like having fun with the leaps in logic required for that belief.
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Marco Esquandolas
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Pretty wild to think there may be cores out there with even older ice in them.
BusterAg
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AstroAg17 said:

It is mainstream.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx


Generally, you are a smart dude.

Sometimes the stuff you post is really, really stupid.

How do you get from this poll about guided VS unguided evolution to the rediculous conclusion that belief in a 6000 year old earth is mainstream?
BusterAg
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Woody2006 said:

It only "appears" to be 2.7 million years old.

We get it, you are not a Christian.

I guess that means you refrain from drinking that poisonous fluoridated water up there in hippy land. I heard some non Christians tell me it rots your brain and gives you cancer.
Aggrad08
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This is the first sentence of the article he posted :

"PRINCETON, NJ -- More than four in 10 Americans continue to believe that God created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago"

That's pretty darn high if accurate.
amercer
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Cool stuff
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Woody2006
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BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

It only "appears" to be 2.7 million years old.

We get it, you are not a Christian.

I guess that means you refrain from drinking that poisonous fluoridated water up there in hippy land. I heard some non Christians tell me it rots your brain and gives you cancer.

Hey, I'm on your side. I don't care if the ice cores have the appearance of age. God can do whatever he wants, including mislead his people.
BusterAg
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Woody2006 said:

BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

It only "appears" to be 2.7 million years old.

We get it, you are not a Christian.

I guess that means you refrain from drinking that poisonous fluoridated water up there in hippy land. I heard some non Christians tell me it rots your brain and gives you cancer.

Hey, I'm on your side. I don't care if the ice cores have the appearance of age. God can do whatever he wants, including mislead his people.
Yeah.

I'm on your side, too. I'm all about saving the people of Oregon from the evils of fluoridated water and the diseases it causes. It will make them a lot easier to spot from a distance when they smile.
BusterAg
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AstroAg17 said:

This is the second image in that link. Note the heading of the far right column.


Is it fathomable in your mind that there are some people that believe that human consciousness / soul emerged around 10,000 years ago, but that the earth is actually much, much older?

Do you really think that everyone, or even most, or even a plurality, of the people in that far right column would contend that these ice cores are not really millions of years old?
Woody2006
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BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

It only "appears" to be 2.7 million years old.

We get it, you are not a Christian.

I guess that means you refrain from drinking that poisonous fluoridated water up there in hippy land. I heard some non Christians tell me it rots your brain and gives you cancer.

Hey, I'm on your side. I don't care if the ice cores have the appearance of age. God can do whatever he wants, including mislead his people.
Yeah.

I'm on your side, too. I'm all about saving the people of Oregon from the evils of fluoridated water and the diseases it causes. It will make them a lot easier to spot from a distance when they smile.
Once you catch me actually promoting any of the hippy nonsense that goes on around me, mock me for it.

I wouldn't wait with bated breath, however.
BlackGoldAg2011
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BusterAg said:

AstroAg17 said:

This is the second image in that link. Note the heading of the far right column.


Is it fathomable in your mind that there are some people that believe that human consciousness / soul emerged around 10,000 years ago, but that the earth is actually much, much older?

Do you really think that everyone, or even most, or even a plurality, of the people in that far right column would contend that these ice cores are not really millions of years old?
i would contend that the majority of people in that far right column are unaware of these ice core's existence, much less the scientific implications of their existence.

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BusterAg
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Woody2006 said:

BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

It only "appears" to be 2.7 million years old.

We get it, you are not a Christian.

I guess that means you refrain from drinking that poisonous fluoridated water up there in hippy land. I heard some non Christians tell me it rots your brain and gives you cancer.

Hey, I'm on your side. I don't care if the ice cores have the appearance of age. God can do whatever he wants, including mislead his people.
Yeah.

I'm on your side, too. I'm all about saving the people of Oregon from the evils of fluoridated water and the diseases it causes. It will make them a lot easier to spot from a distance when they smile.
Once you catch me actually promoting any of the hippy nonsense that goes on around me, mock me for it.

I wouldn't wait with bated breath, however.


But, wait. You live in the pnw, have some very liberal ideas around things like cannibus and birkenstock; you all think fluoride is evil, right? I mean, heaven forbid you give a group of people the benefit of the doubt about their ability to think for themselves instead of projecting finge points of view to the entire group.
BusterAg
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AG

Quote:


I'm sure such people exist, but I've never heard of them. I don't know of any evidence that indicates they're a significant proportion of society. Beliefs like that would be very silly anyways, probably more silly than those of a YEC. It's not consistent with Genesis or science. Most people at least choose one.

Its funny. I don;t know any serious Christians in their 30s or 40s that don't believe some flavor of this. Most would disagree with your assertion that it is inconsistent with Genesis or science,
Quote:

I think that a great many people exist in a state of cognitive dissonance where they believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis when the topic is broached, but in other settings they take the secular view. I don't think they have ever tried to reconcile that dissonance, and I don't think many really care enough to. They believe it, but they also believe other contradictory facts. It doesn't make sense and they don't care. I think that the poll provides evidence of this. When religion is mentioned in the question, YEC responses increase.
I think that there is absolute truth to this. People want to believe that the Bible is true, and they have some ideas about what it means, but they are not stupid when it comes to science either. I'm starting to learn that a lot of people just choose to leave this up to mystery, and that doesn't bother them.

The idea of doing that may be pretty offensive to a hyper-analytical guy like you, but it is very comfortable for others.

You can choose to blanketly believe that everyone like that is stupid or intellectually lazy, but I would find that to be a fairly ignorant approach.
BusterAg
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AstroAg17 said:

I also don't think that your hypothetical group who believe that human consciousness or soul began 10,000 years ago would agree with the statement "god created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago". That seems very clear.
In my opinion "God created humans in their present form around 10,000 years ago" and "human consciousness or soul began about 10,000 years ago" are equivalent statements.
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Woody2006
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BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

It only "appears" to be 2.7 million years old.

We get it, you are not a Christian.

I guess that means you refrain from drinking that poisonous fluoridated water up there in hippy land. I heard some non Christians tell me it rots your brain and gives you cancer.

Hey, I'm on your side. I don't care if the ice cores have the appearance of age. God can do whatever he wants, including mislead his people.
Yeah.

I'm on your side, too. I'm all about saving the people of Oregon from the evils of fluoridated water and the diseases it causes. It will make them a lot easier to spot from a distance when they smile.
Once you catch me actually promoting any of the hippy nonsense that goes on around me, mock me for it.

I wouldn't wait with bated breath, however.


But, wait. You live in the pnw, have some very liberal ideas around things like cannibus and birkenstock; you all think fluoride is evil, right? I mean, heaven forbid you give a group of people the benefit of the doubt about their ability to think for themselves instead of projecting finge points of view to the entire group.
Yes, belief in a 6000 year old Earth is a "fringe" point of view in Christian circles.

Why are you always so obtuse on this issue? There are a TON of Christians who truly reject any sort of evidence that conflicts with the literalist world view.
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Aggrad08
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Even on this board the evolution denial is probably 15-20 percent and that's with a college education (ostensibly) which lowers these views.

A more precise notion of man evolving and Adam and eve being granted souls at some point may not be accounted in that poll, but I hardly think we would have the fights over textbooks ect. If it were truly fringe.

This is for America by the way, in Europe I'd expect it to be a truly fringe view. In South America who knows.

There is certainly a larger group who would deny evolution than would deny the age of the earth though.
Zobel
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Sidebar: you seem to imply that paradox exists to be solved or avoided. Given that paradox isn't just part of the human condition but a fundamental reality in logic, what does that say?

To skew platonic, do you believe that a paradox can be Real? Is there such thing as the form of Paradox, or would that be at odds with and overshadowed / consumed by the form of Truth?
The Mirror
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BusterAg said:

AstroAg17 said:

I also don't think that your hypothetical group who believe that human consciousness or soul began 10,000 years ago would agree with the statement "god created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago". That seems very clear.
In my opinion "God created humans in their present form around 10,000 years ago" and "human consciousness or soul began about 10,000 years ago" are equivalent statements.


I'm interested in how this happened. So we have humans with no soul. Then we have two humans with a soul in the garden then the rest is literal? Walk me through your world view.
BusterAg
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k2aggie07 said:

Sidebar: you seem to imply that paradox exists to be solved or avoided. Given that paradox isn't just part of the human condition but a fundamental reality in logic, what does that say?

To skew platonic, do you believe that a paradox can be Real? Is there such thing as the form of Paradox, or would that be at odds with and overshadowed / consumed by the form of Truth?
Love me some K2 logic on this topic. I'm doing a pretty in depth study on eastern philosophy right now thanks to my exposure to your Orthodox views. Cristianity is such a different animal when you consider it apart from the western worship of rationality and logic.

My viewpoint is moving closer to the idea that the Truth has inherent paradox built into it, possibly by design.
BusterAg
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Woody2006 said:

BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

BusterAg said:

Woody2006 said:

It only "appears" to be 2.7 million years old.

We get it, you are not a Christian.

I guess that means you refrain from drinking that poisonous fluoridated water up there in hippy land. I heard some non Christians tell me it rots your brain and gives you cancer.

Hey, I'm on your side. I don't care if the ice cores have the appearance of age. God can do whatever he wants, including mislead his people.
Yeah.

I'm on your side, too. I'm all about saving the people of Oregon from the evils of fluoridated water and the diseases it causes. It will make them a lot easier to spot from a distance when they smile.
Once you catch me actually promoting any of the hippy nonsense that goes on around me, mock me for it.

I wouldn't wait with bated breath, however.


But, wait. You live in the pnw, have some very liberal ideas around things like cannibus and birkenstock; you all think fluoride is evil, right? I mean, heaven forbid you give a group of people the benefit of the doubt about their ability to think for themselves instead of projecting finge points of view to the entire group.
Yes, belief in a 6000 year old Earth is a "fringe" point of view in Christian circles.

Why are you always so obtuse on this issue? There are a TON of Christians who truly reject any sort of evidence that conflicts with the literalist world view.
I'm obtuse on this topic because you show so much ignorance towards the rational Christian thinking on this topic. There are a few outspoken defenders of YEC, and there are some logical problems with that worldview. You like to project that line of thinking to the majority of Christians, who either don't believe that way, or don't really care to examine it close enough to have a strong opinion.

I would say, if there are a lot of Christians that, as you claim, "reject any sort of evidence that conflicts with the literalist world view," they are likely concentrated in the over 60 and under 20 crowd. I also think that your perception of how many people think that way is skewed by how overly vocal the defendants of this line of thought are compared to the rest of us.

You talking like this is not that different from people that mock all casual weed smokers as lazy, dirty hippies, which is pretty ignorant, and something which you seem to have a strong sensitivity towards.
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