Aggrad,

So to summarize the text of what Ezekiel said regarding Tyre

1) Said Tyre will be destroyed- this is true destoyed by Alexander roughly 250 years later. You think zeke should of done a better job and add a timeline, even though there is no timeline given!
2) Said Mulitple Nations will invade in waves- this is true - Neb, Alexander, others
3) Said Neb will invade mainland- this is true. .
4) Said Neb destroyed towers and walls on the mainland 2600 years ago- We dispute this- You say there were absolutely no walls or towers on the mainland. I am not so certain.
5) Said Neb did not take- destroy the island (hinted at no booty)- this is true- Note this verse really hurts your argument in regards to what happened at Tyre. Also backs up Alexander finishing the job.
6) Said the Tyre city will not be rebuilt- This is Literally False, city destroyed for roughly 270 years, was rebuilt 60s and destroyed. Also Ezekiel has symbolic meaning- true- regarding the people- references to Netherworld- "So you will never return or have a place in the land of the living"

Also will add these weasle words- some folks say that Phoenicia (Tyre) was conquered and no longer exists. It later became Tyre under new rules Rome and then on to the next set of rulers.

On to Egypt- And Off to a party!

Aggrad,

working on response to egypt, but as I was rereading the chapters on Tyre. Ezekiel likes to repeat himself saying the same thing over and over. Summary-Tyre is bad and Nations are coming for you. Not one but many. No mention of Neb.

Ezekiel 28 5-8 Through your great wisdom in trading you heaped up riches for yourself your heart is haughty because of your riches. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you pretend you are a god at heart, Therefore, I will bring against you strangers, the most bloodthirsty of nations. They shall draw their swords against your splendid wisdom, and violate your radiance. They shall thrust you down into the pit: you shall die a violent death in the heart of the sea.

Same chapter:

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All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.'"

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So another failed prophecy.

I am amazed at your justifications on this topic. I find it better if Ezekiel was wrong than that God was such a ******* that he waited and slaughtered a city eight or nine generations after they behaved badly. That sure showed them!

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1) If it meant over a 1000 year time period it would say so Response- You make this claim, then don't back it up. Why does there need to be a timeline? Based on what evidence do you have other than you (Aggrad) would like a timeline? Your opinion there should be one. You know the old comments about our opinions- everyone has one, like A-holes- they mean nothing. Answer- there does not need to be a timeline.

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Booboo. I seriously question your intelligence. I clearly gave reasons why it give a timeline. You are boring me. It explicitly mentions Nebuchadnezzar. A 1000 year time period makes no sense for the punishment aspect (your excuse is random and falls flat), and it would mention a nother time period and another commander because that's literally how language works. You cannot communicate through the twisted nonsense you are trying to put forth. I've got the text, you've got opinions-and uneducated ones at that.

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Logic- Ezekiel is making all these proclamations against all these nations? Do you think they will instantly happen immediately? No, it will take time.

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There is no logic to punishing unrelated people and letting the offenders have a great victory. Your post on this is an exercise in absurdity.

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As I pointed out earlier, note this is not opinion but what the text says. Ezekiel 26:3 O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the seas casting up its WAVES. Are waves single or plural (sarcasm)? Logic God sends many nations waves of invaders over and over, like waves of the sea.

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You know Nebuchadnezzar was ruler of many nations right? Or are you daft? And you know virtually ANY siege will attack in waves over many years.

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Logic- this is religious book, written for a reason. Ezekiel author is religious. He believes God's will, will be done. It may take time, but it will be done. And we see in Ezekiel 29 18 Neb did not take Tyre. Note: This bible verse total kills your argument.

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No it doesn't. It kills yours. The humor is that exekial isn't as dumb as fundamentalist Christians. He doesn't even think his words are perfect.

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2) There is no hint of a time break. There absolutely is! Ezekiel 29:18! Neb did not take Tyre and God's will will be done.

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THAT'S NOT A HINT. That's you refusing to accept the bible could be wrong (even though you already admitted it for the city being rebuilt".

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3) The Many nations are clearly under Neb control? Again- same question- based on what evidence? Give me something, other than your opinion.

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Every last bit of context, the entire verse and the fact that neb controlled many nations. What evidence do you have.

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In the eleventh month of the twelfth year, on the first day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me: 2 "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, 'Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord.

7 "For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[b] king of Babylon, king of kings [kings = many nations, king of kings =neb], with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.

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That's the whole thing in context so everyone can see how full of it you are. Now we will go piece by piece and examine the absurdity you put forth.

Read verses2-6. They are THE EXACT SAME EVENT, as verses 7-14. One is merely a more detailed version of the other. It makes no sense to switch back and forth, there are no hundreds of year gaps between ANY two sentences. That's infantile.

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and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.

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So let's start right here. Not even alexander fulfills this. He never scraped the city clean. Total destruction wouldn't even be in his best interest: According to Diodorus (17.47.1-6), Alexander allowed a man of Tyre, of royal descent, to become its new king. A mere 17 years later Tyre was sufficiently recovered to resistfor 15 monthsa siege by Antigonus, one of Alexanders generals, who sought to make himself master of Asia upon Alexanders death. Upon capturing Tyre, Antigonus established his own garrison there, showing that the city remained intact. (Jidejian, p.80). So not even with alexander do you get ANYTHING close to what this verse states.

Under no general in no timeline do you see the destruction called for in the bible.

So then let's look at 7-14. When Neb, ruler of many nations beings an army against tyre. Note it never predicts his defeat. Why? You are arguing for a 250 year gap between verse 11 and 12. And even if I granted it you still fail. There existed NO walls on the mainland worthy of siege equipment. Even if they had a minor fence, it would not require battering rams. It was all undefended. Your excuse falls flat. Further there is no reason to build a ramp up to the walls on the mainland. It's all flat (and the small wall that you are assuming exists without evidence would not require it, also it would be undefended.) Further, it says he will take down the strong pillars. Those aren't to be found in Ushu. You are wrong on every level. If you read the whole thing at once you cannot entertain it was a bunch of separate events with many hundreds of years between sentences.

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" I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord."

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Note this is all literal, the figurative language you spoke of does not even begin until the next paragraph. This all fails. All of it, thus Ezekiel is a false prophet.

Dr. Watson said:

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So another failed prophecy.

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I am amazed at your justifications on this topic. I find it better if Ezekiel was wrong than that God was such a ******* that he waited and slaughtered a city eight or nine generations after they behaved badly. That sure showed them!

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Watson would say you are probably amazed because you are ignorant and do not understand. if you live in Houston, come to church with me.

This is very basic bible themes- we can choose the way of life and way of death. If we do bad things there are consequences. Good news we can change our ways and repent (there is hope). This applies to us today: Watson and Booboo, it also applied to Israel, Tyre, Nineveh.

Also famous passage at chapter 37 Ezekiel of the dry bones coming back to life! Even if things look bad There is hope! Repent and turn to the lord.

booboo91 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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So another failed prophecy.

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I am amazed at your justifications on this topic. I find it better if Ezekiel was wrong than that God was such a ******* that he waited and slaughtered a city eight or nine generations after they behaved badly. That sure showed them!

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Watson would say you are probably amazed because you are ignorant and do not understand. if you live in Houston, come to church with me.

This is very basic bible themes- we can choose the way of life and way of death. If we do bad things there are consequences. Good news we can change our ways and repent (there is hope). This applies to us today: Watson and Booboo, it also applied to Israel, Tyre, Nineveh.

Also famous passage at chapter 37 Ezekiel of the dry bones coming back to life! Even if things look bad There is hope! Repent and turn to the lord.

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Oh, I understand very well. Let's say your contorted explanations for the failure of Ezekiel's prophecy are correct, that means nine generations or so later the city is punished for actions centuries earlier. Not people. The city. Because the people who pissed God off are LONG dead. And many of their lineages have probably died off as well. Nine generations is a lot. Tyre is a commercial city on the sea. So much of the population probably has ancestors who moved to Tyre and settled after Neb showed up. And yet you're claiming that despite doing nothing to piss God off, they get massacred due to his prophecy. That's not just. And don't give me the original sin bull***** That's an excuse to avoid addressing the injustice of individual actions. That's the kind of excuse used to justify genocide: "well, some Jews did bad things in the past, they even killed Jesus, so they earned this Holocaust."

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Booboo. I seriously question your intelligence. I clearly gave reasons why it give a timeline. You are boring me. It explicitly mentions Nebuchadnezzar. A 1000 year time period makes no sense for the punishment aspect (your excuse is random and falls flat), and it would mention a nother time period and another commander because that's literally how language works. You cannot communicate through the twisted nonsense you are trying to put forth. I've got the text, you've got opinions-and uneducated ones at that.

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Aggrad- funny I question your bible intelligence. Me thinks you did not read it, thus you do not quote from it. You are being stubborn on timeline. Because if there is no timeline- you lose this argument on Tyre thus you dig in.

1) I am slow please show me the text again, that backs up your claim there has to be a timeline. Answer- you can't. All you can offer up is your opinion, that it does not make sense to Aggrad an atheist- which is worthless as is my opinion. PLEASE SHow ME THE TEXT!!!

2) We both agree Neb was involved, Neb did not take the city!!!.
Added- Neb involvement does not mean there is a timline (when all of this would be fullfilled, it only means Neb was involved.

Question- So do you really think it just ends here? Remember this is a religious book, do you really believe God does not get his way?

3) When you read Ezekiel- which I doubt you do- where do you come up with a timeline is required? No other timelines were given for the prophecies against Ammon, Moab, Edom, Philistines,Sidon. So why does there need to be a timeline with Tyre?

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There is no logic to punishing unrelated people and letting the offenders have a great victory. Your post on this is an exercise in absurdity.

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Disagree, probably why you are no longer a Christian- Ezekiel 18 points out- gotta repent. This goes for folks today and in the future. Talking about both society and individuals. Do cities really go to Sheol? Or rather the individual.

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You know Nebuchadnezzar was ruler of many nations right? Or are you daft? And you know virtually ANY siege will attack in waves over many years.

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Ok- that is one way to look at it. the many nations were only under Neb.

But the key piece of evidence that you seem to ignore. Is the fact NEB did not take the City. This is HUGE!!!! Let me say it AGAIN- HUGE!!!!!

use logic- religious book- do you really think it ends there? What is so important is to understand the author, context and writting style. I think you so what it to be wrong- you remove and discount all of this

Got to go to church

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But the key piece of evidence that you seem to ignore. Is the fact NEB did not take the City. This is HUGE!!!! Let me say it AGAIN- HUGE!!!!!

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Lololololol! Yes the key piece of evidence that renders the prophecy false is HUGE! Of course in the land of confirmation bias where it's assumed the Bible is the infallible word of god this means we have to magic a new crazy interpretation to keep our previous world view intact.

This is why people like booboo are fundamentally dishonest and adverse to truth. They don't seek truth or pursue it. They decide what truth is and twist and contort anything and everything to their predetermined bias.

It's no different than flat earthers or 9/11 conspiracy theorists. When facts don't match the narrative change the facts. Spin a new yarn.

Your book is false. Your god is false. You are living a lie.

Blimey said:

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But the key piece of evidence that you seem to ignore. Is the fact NEB did not take the City. This is HUGE!!!! Let me say it AGAIN- HUGE!!!!!

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Lololololol! Yes the key piece of evidence that renders the prophecy false is HUGE! Of course in the land of confirmation bias where it's assumed the Bible is the infallible word of god this means we have to magic a new crazy interpretation to keep our previous world view intact.

This is why people like booboo are fundamentally dishonest and adverse to truth. They don't seek truth or pursue it. They decide what truth is and twist and contort anything and everything to their predetermined bias.

It's no different than flat earthers or 9/11 conspiracy theorists. When facts don't match the narrative change the facts. Spin a new yarn.

Your book is false. Your god is false. You are living a lie.

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need to read entire book- see how the story unfolds. not just the parts you want- 30 second sound bites- do not work

Like the new name!

I've read it. In fact I Quoted the entire thing. You bore Me Booboo. I showed how the towers walls gates and pillars wouldn't refer to the mainland. I'm far out of your league, you aren't even a dressing my points. Show me where it predicts nebs failure, why wouldn't it mention that? Would you agree that anyone reading the text before the battle would be decieved?

Show me in the text how the first paragraph is a different event than the second. You show me. I'm done showing you, you lack the honesty to even address points, its absurd. The fact that it failed does nothing for you. Ezekiel tells you it fails. It only means he doesn't think his own words are infallable.
And he would never know the city would be rebuilt even still.

Furthermore, what you again didn't address. It doesn't work for Alexander either. The city wasn't scraped dry. It was fully functional shortly after and withstood another seige for over a year a mere 17 years after.

There is nothing you can argue that saves Ezekiel obvious falshood.

It's disproven even with Alexander.

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Disagree, probably why you are no longer a Christian- Ezekiel 18 points out- gotta repent. This goes for folks today and in the future. Talking about both society and individuals. Do cities really go to Sheol? Or rather the individual.

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Individuals. And it doesn't help you. The society that did wrong did not repent and won a great victory. An unrelated society that so far as we know did nothing to offend god was punished harshly. Im not a christian gor lots of reasons. But I never once heard stories about god rewarding unrepentant people and punishing the innocent in church. That's what happens here. You know it doesn't make sense and are clinging desperately to anything you can grab onto. You already know it fails and are hoping to argue it's not as bad as it seems.

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Ok- that is one way to look at it. the many nations were only under Neb.

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This is the only honest way to read it. The only way it could have been read BY THE PEOPLE IT WAS WRITTEN FOR. Who alive at the time would understand as you discribe-no one, how could they? Who alive at the time would understand it as I describe-everyone. There is not one single issue for my interpretation textually, contextually and as read contemporarily . Your only issue is that it makes you rethink what you believe about the bible.

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use logic- religious book- do you really think it ends there? What is so important is to understand the author, context and writting style. I think you so what it to be wrong- you remove and discount all of this

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I'm the only one using context. I'm the only one with a consistent and bracketed transition from literal to figurative. I'm the only one who's interpretation could possibly be understood by the people at the time. I'm the only one who's interpretation is accurate with the facts of the battle. Your reasoning that Ezekiel couldn't accept being wrong is to force your own beliefs upon him.

You will twist anything to believe. I don't have to twist. And as you already admitted it fails, there is nothing more to say Ezekiel is a false prophet on this. The city is rebuilt, the passage saying it wouldn't be is completely within a paragraph and context that is literal.

The talk of sheol does not begin until the next paragraph.

Aggrad,

Will respond later tonight. in the mean time. I bow down to your greatness. No way am I in your league.




And yet - when you miss the fact that God even exists- how smart are you really?

Aggrad,

Quick minor point before I forget. Ezekiel writing/ prophecies and warnings were no doubt meant for the people of the time but also people of the future. You think it only serves the people in the past. It is both. Ezekiel warning was not only to city of Tyre but to the Jewish people and all future generations- to everyone that reads Ezekiel.

So the fact that it took 250 years does not bother believers- Tyre was destroyed- it happened.. The fact the Jews were in captivity for long time, they were delivered. the fact the Hebrews were warned their cities would fall- North and South- it happenened. The fact it took 1000 years for Jesus to take the thrown of David- it happened.

The beauty of the bible is we learn from others, we learn from the Jews from both their good and bad actions. We see this as the Jewish people constantly recited their history so they can learn from it. How many times was it the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Why do they keep bringing things up that happened long time ago?

What I find interesting- is the Jewish people were so small and weak, and yet would say the world knows them better than most ancient rulers. King David- very little historical evidence is arguably the most famous king. Because we follow Jewish tradition of learning from their mistakes.

Aggrad

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Show me where it predicts nebs failure, why wouldn't it mention that? Would you agree that anyone reading the text before the battle would be decieved?

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1) This is basic stuff. Gotta read entire story so you can understand. Example- reading that Jesus died on Friday and then not reading about Sunday- Resurrection does us no good. Or reading a little gem in Genesis Jacob takes/steals his birthright from brother Essau and then chapter later- he gets screwed over on the birthright by father in-law and has to marry Leah (she was oldest) when he wanted to marry Rachel. This story is a little bit of payback/karma for Jacobs earlier behavior.

• Need to read all of Ezekiel to understand.
• There are (3) contiguous Chapters on Tyre and we see the verse that kills your argument within these 3 chapters.

Ezekiel 29:18 20 Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, has made his army wage a hard campaign against Tyre; their heads grew bald, their shoulders rubbed raw, yet neither he nor his army received compensation from Tyre for all the effort they expended against it. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: See! I am giving to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, the land of Egypt! He will carry off its wealth, plundering and pillaging whatever he can find to provide pay for his army. As payment for his toil I give him the land of Egypt oracle of the Lord GOD

2) Yes we agree, if we read 30 second sound bites and not the entire story, we would be deceived because we would be missing very important details.

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Show me in the text how the first paragraph is a different event than the second. You show me. I'm done showing you, you lack the honesty to even address points, its absurd. The fact that it failed does nothing for you. Ezekiel tells you it fails. It only means he doesn't think his own words are infallable.

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1) Show me in the text how the first paragraph is a different event than the second.- I don't understand what you are asking?

2))The fact that it failed does nothing for you- Correct the fact Ezekiel made (2) statements does not bother me at all. I simply look at both of them and see it as a continuation of the story. Serious question- don't you do the same thing when you read books? Answer- yes.

3) Ezekiel tells you it fails. It only means he doesn't think his own words are infallable. Response: That is one way to work at it. But I think you gloss over this point, which is there is a reason Ezekiel book was spoken/ written. It is a religious book. The words are not from Ezekiel but from God (whether you believe it or not, author does). Thus God's will, will be done. It will happen. Give it time it will happen. So I would say this religous book would not say God was wrong. That is not going to happen.

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And he would never know the city would be rebuilt even still.

Furthermore, what you again didn't address. It doesn't work for Alexander either. The city wasn't scraped dry. It was fully functional shortly after and withstood another seige for over a year a mere 17 years after.

There is nothing you can argue that saves Ezekiel obvious falshood.

It's disproven even with Alexander.

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And he would never know the city would be rebuilt even still. Don't understand this statement?

We agree from literal aspect Tyre has been rebuilt. We know Tyre and the mainland of Tyre were destroyed to some effect, many folks were killed and the city has been rebuilt. Speculation is mainland city was taken apart to some extent and used some bu Neb and then 250 years later for siege of Alexander. Today the island is a peninsula.

Here is the text, notice all the symbolism, also notice netherworld comments. Note: I don't think the islands were literally quake or the islands were literally terrified (figure of speech),

Ezekiel 26 14- I will turn you into bare rock, you will become a place for drying nets. You shall never be rebuilt, or I the LORD have spoken oracle of the Lord GOD. Thus says the Lord GOD to Tyre: At the sound of your downfall, at the groaning of the wounded, When victims are slain within you, will the islands not quake? All the princes of the sea will step down from their thrones, Lay aside their robes, and strip off their embroidered garments. Clothed in mourning, they will sit on the ground And tremble, horror-struck and appalled at you. They will raise lament over you and say to you: How you have perished, gone from the seas, Renowned City! Once she was mighty on the sea, she and her inhabitants, Those who spread their terror to all who dwelt nearby. On this, the day of your fall, the islands quake! The islands in the sea are terrified at your passing. Indeed thus says the Lord GOD: When I make you a ruined city like cities no longer inhabited, When I churn up the deep and its mighty waters cover you, Then I will thrust you down
with those who go down to the pit, to those of the bygone age; I will make you dwell in the netherworld,in the everlasting ruins, with those who have gone down to the pit, So you will never return or have a place in the land of the living.

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Individuals. And it doesn't help you. The society that did wrong did not repent and won a great victory. An unrelated society that so far as we know did nothing to offend god was punished harshly. Im not a christian gor lots of reasons. But I never once heard stories about god rewarding unrepentant people and punishing the innocent in church. That's what happens here. You know it doesn't make sense and are clinging desperately to anything you can grab onto. You already know it fails and are hoping to argue it's not as bad as it seems.

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1) The society that did wrong did not repent and won a great victory. An unrelated society that so far as we know did nothing to offend god was punished harshly.

• Response- Agreed they did not repent, they were able to survive a 13 year siege. They were given a slight reprieve/ reward of being able to live another day. But again, at some point justice is still served. Netherworld comment. Jesus wheat and weeds. Ezekiel Chapter 18- consequences of sin- need to repent or death. For I find no pleasure in the death of anyone who diesoracle of the Lord GOD. Turn back and live
• "did nothing to offend god". Do not entirely agree that the people were innocent. Would think they would be like Israel and did not repent. No details are give and we know all you have to do is repent. No matter how bad you are example: Evil King Ahab- repents and lives a little longer, City of Nineveh was spared a little longer.
• View this as being similar (no different) to fall of north and south kingdom of Israel - people were behaving badily for long time, many generations were doing the crime and only few generations did the time- destroyed- exile. They did not change ways, repent.

2) You know it doesn't make sense and are clinging desperately to anything you can grab onto. You already know it fails and are hoping to argue it's not as bad as it seems. Response- Seriously and truly, this is basic bible teaching, and you do not see it because you do not read (you are very ignorant regarding the bible). Again Read Ezekiel Chapter 18- he lays it out. Very simple- Repent and be saved or don't and be destroyed.

3) Same point repeated again- Logic here, this is a religous book! there is a reason it was written. All you have to do is repent. So from Ezekiel's perspective (he is the one who wrote the book), what can we assume, if a society is destroyed? They did not repent.

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This is the only honest way to read it. The only way it could have been read BY THE PEOPLE IT WAS WRITTEN FOR. Who alive at the time would understand as you discribe-no one, how could they? Who alive at the time would understand it as I describe-everyone. There is not one single issue for my interpretation textually, contextually and as read contemporarily . Your only issue is that it makes you rethink what you believe about the bible.

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1) Agreed we first read the book of bible understanding the original context, the intended audience. But also the bible literally speaks to us today. That is why OT so focuses on the history. God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We go back and learn. Ezekiel lived around 600BC- that is roughly 1400 years of oral and written tradition he was familar with, understand how the Jews look back to learn.

But to be clear I don't think Ezekiel thought we would be reading his comments 2600 years later. He was probably just responding to God's call. In same way St. Paul (wrote most of the NT) was just writing letters to the early churches. Was not writing books to be in the bible

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I'm the only one using context. I'm the only one with a consistent and bracketed transition from literal to figurative. I'm the only one who's interpretation could possibly be understood by the people at the time. I'm the only one who's interpretation is accurate with the facts of the battle. Your reasoning that Ezekiel couldn't accept being wrong is to force your own beliefs upon him.

You will twist anything to believe. I don't have to twist. And as you already admitted it fails, there is nothing more to say Ezekiel is a false prophet on this. The city is rebuilt, the passage saying it wouldn't be is completely within a paragraph and context that is literal.

The talk of sheol does not begin until the next paragraph.

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1) I don't think Ezekiel thought he was lying. I believe he believed, he was repeating words of God. And bible 101- God's words come true.

2) Yes Neb invaded mainland- True, Neb did not take- True, Many nations- waves- True, Tyre destroyed- True, It was very bad -true. there power and glory were gone- true. " you shall never be rebuilt"- False from literal.

Also literally false- the islands did not quake and the tremble - sarcasm. Ezekiel also used symbolic language.

3) The talk of sheol does not begin until the next paragraph. Ok and your point is? I gave you the text- read it. It all goes together on the bad consequences.

Last few point on this.

1) Ekeziel 29 verse - Zeke gives us a crucial clue that Neb did Not take Tyre. This is perfect point to add, God changed his mind because Tyre repented and was thus spared. But we do not see that.

Note: your counter would be -he should of at least provided more details, tell us someone else (Alexander) was going to do it. this is the worst prophecy ever.

But to the Christian, Jews, believers- we say, yep it was going to happen. unless you repent.

2) I am big fan of Habakukk good book that often is not read in it. God uses very bad people to inflict punishment on the bad Jews, but there is always hope. The book contains prophet Habakukk praying, complaining to God why are you letting this happen to us?

It is in line with you question- why does God let bad people survive and good people die.

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Show me where it predicts nebs failure, why wouldn't it mention that? Would you agree that anyone reading the text before the battle would be decieved?

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1) This is basic stuff. Gotta read entire story so you can understand. Example- reading that Jesus died on Friday and then not reading about Sunday- Resurrection does us no good. Or reading a little gem in Genesis Jacob takes/steals his birthright from brother Essau and then chapter later- he gets screwed over on the birthright by father in-law and has to marry Leah (she was oldest) when he wanted to marry Rachel. This story is a little bit of payback/karma for Jacobs earlier behavior.

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This is just ramblinbg booboo. That's all you do, and why this is so boring. You fundamentally don't understand argumentation or even the history and text you are quoting. Ezekial wasn't written all at once. It makes no sense for it to have been, FURTHER, if it was written after the fact it isn't even a prophecy or sensical. There is a time break between the prophecy and the failure at tyre. I'm asking how people hearing ezekials claims prior to the battle could possibly believe what you wrote.

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  Need to read all of Ezekiel to understand.

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I've read the whole damn thing. You are the one who cannot even understand your own book. Notice no Christians are even bothering to agree with you. The only one who even popped up on this thread doesn't agree with your interpretation at all. It's not my ignorance booboo, it's your own.

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Ezekiel 29:18 20 Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, has made his army wage a hard campaign against Tyre; their heads grew bald, their shoulders rubbed raw, yet neither he nor his army received compensation from Tyre for all the effort they expended against it. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: See! I am giving to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, the land of Egypt! He will carry off its wealth, plundering and pillaging whatever he can find to provide pay for his army. As payment for his toil I give him the land of Egypt oracle of the Lord GOD

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Exactly, he acknoldges what you cannot, that the first endevour was a failure for Nebuchadnezzar. This is exactly my point. Second, the last part of the prophecy is FALSE, he never took Egypt, at all.

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2) Yes we agree, if we read 30 second sound bites and not the entire story, we would be deceived because we would be missing very important details.

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That verse, presented historically would have been STAND ALONE. He would have proclaimed the prophecy prior to the events. And the verses afterward don't even help you or clarify anything about it being alexander.

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1) Show me in the text how the first paragraph is a different event than the second.- I don't understand what you are asking?

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That's because you aren't reading all my posts. I quoted the entire passage. The whole thing. There is no way someone reading the posts would not understand. Go back and READ. There are three paragraphs, chapter 26 vs 1-6, vs 7-14, and 5-17. These are all using literal language. 1-6 and 7-14 speak of the Exact same event, just one is more detailed. For your interpretation to be true they must be totally different events mixed in with huge time gaps between sentences.

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2))The fact that it failed does nothing for you- Correct the fact Ezekiel made (2) statements does not bother me at all. I simply look at both of them and see it as a continuation of the story. Serious question- don't you do the same thing when you read books? Answer- yes.

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The prophecy was written before booboo. Think about the actual timeline. The book wasn't written all at once, he adjusted for the failure at tyre. So yes I see a continuation of the story after a failed prophecy. You just make up nonsense about alexander and continually ignore the fact that even he didn't fulfill the prophecy.

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3) Ezekiel tells you it fails. It only means he doesn't think his own words are infallable. Response: That is one way to work at it. But I think you gloss over this point, which is there is a reason Ezekiel book was spoken/ written. It is a religious book. The words are not from Ezekiel but from God (whether you believe it or not, author does). Thus God's will, will be done. It will happen. Give it time it will happen. So I would say this religous book would not say God was wrong. That is not going to happen.

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No booboo. It doesn't, he acknowledges the failure and tries another prophecy (which fails just as badly). It's not a problem for him because he is obviously understanding a distinction between his words and gods, you are forcing the latter which makes god bad at prophecy.

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1) Agreed we first read the book of bible understanding the original context, the intended audience. But also the bible literally speaks to us today. That is why OT so focuses on the history. God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We go back and learn. Ezekiel lived around 600BC- that is roughly 1400 years of oral and written tradition he was familar with, understand how the Jews look back to learn.

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It's fine that you think that. My point is it's literally impossible for your interpretation to be understood BY THE PEOPLE AT THE TIME. So let's talk before the battle. When the people at the time only had Ezekials prophecy, none of the text about the failed battle and the Egyptian recompense. What would they interpret the passage to mean. (verses 1-21). That's all they had before the battle at most.

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But to be clear I don't think Ezekiel thought we would be reading his comments 2600 years later. He was probably just responding to God's call. In same way St. Paul (wrote most of the NT) was just writing letters to the early churches. Was not writing books to be in the bible

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Agreed, he had no idea he was writing scripture, which is why his failure to predict the first battle was of little issue.

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1) I don't think Ezekiel thought he was lying. I believe he believed, he was repeating words of God. And bible 101- God's words come true.

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I too think he was honestly saying what he believed. It wasn't a deception, it was simply wrong. He was wrong and that's ok. He wasn't writing scripture in his own mind.

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2) Yes Neb invaded mainland- True, Neb did not take- True, Many nations- waves- True, Tyre destroyed- True, It was very bad -true. there power and glory were gone- true. " you shall never be rebuilt"- False from literal.

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The part about never being rebuilt is COMPLETELY within a paragraph of literal context. It's literal, it failed. The part about the island being completely destroyed is literal (and false as well), it's completely within a literal context. verses 1-14 are ALL literal. It's completely within a literal context.

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Also literally false- the islands did not quake and the tremble - sarcasm. Ezekiel also used symbolic language.

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This is within the next paragraph. Verses 15-21 are poetic and figurative. There is a clear distinction between these verses and the ones before. It is not switching randomly between literal and figurative like you require but rather with a clear and obvious break.

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3) The talk of sheol does not begin until the next paragraph. Ok and your point is? I gave you the text- read it. It all goes together on the bad consequences.

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That the next paragraph is where the figurative and poetic language is used, all together, in context. You are trying to mix and match, it's desperate and foolish. The verse about the island being scraped dry is literal-and it failed. The verse about it never being rebuilt is literal-and it failed. The verses about sheol are figurative and poetic.

These are weak excuses booboo. Ezekial is a false prophet, there is nothing you can do to wriggle out. And that's before we get to the obviously false Egypt prophecy.

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1) Ekeziel 29 verse - Zeke gives us a crucial clue that Neb did Not take Tyre. This is perfect point to add, God changed his mind because Tyre repented and was thus spared. But we do not see that.

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This is a complete abandonment of your previous argument, you are just throwing anything against the wall to see what sticks. It makes no sense for Ezekial not to mention this, it is not implied anywhere in context. You are just making things up because you refuse to believe the truth.

I'm guessing you are going to say Egypt repented also and that's why the Egypt prophecy failed?

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Note: your counter would be -he should of at least provided more details, tell us someone else (Alexander) was going to do it. this is the worst prophecy ever.

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Yes booboo, but argumentation involves actually countering the point you anticipate.

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But to the Christian, Jews, believers- we say, yep it was going to happen. unless you repent.

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Where did they repent booboo. You are now switching arguments to say yes the prophecy failed but that's because god changed his mind when tyre repented. Show me where that happened, either in the text or historically speaking.

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This is just ramblinbg booboo. That's all you do, and why this is so boring. You fundamentally don't understand argumentation or even the history and text you are quoting. Ezekial wasn't written all at once. It makes no sense for it to have been, FURTHER, if it was written after the fact it isn't even a prophecy or sensical. There is a time break between the prophecy and the failure at tyre. I'm asking how people hearing ezekials claims prior to the battle could possibly believe what you wrote.

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Oh wise one! To make it more entertaining (not boring) for you, think of Ezekiel as this guy. From Monty Python- Holy Grail- he warns people of the dangers, but they ignore him. It is only when they are actually confronted do they understand. It is no different when I tell you there is a God, that you need to repent and love others. You can believe me or not believe me. but eventually you will be confronted with the truth. Note: Ezekiel is famous for his bones passage.



2) Ekeziel was not all written at once- Ok we agree Ezekiel was not written all at once- we agree. So what? Ok chapter 29 was written after 26- so what? Ok there was a time break of days, months, years- so what? One still needs to read te entire story.

3) I'm asking how people hearing ezekials claims prior to the battle could possibly believe what you wrote.

• Who was the intended audience of Ezekiel? Answer- it was the Jews in exile. Ezekiel makes many many claims, From a literal perspective Ezekiel did not send Tyre a tweet or email.
• So my take is some Jews repented and some did not. they had history of moses told to them and witnessed the fall of the north and south kingdoms. They had heard the many warnings of the prophets. So you either pay attention or not.
• Jonah said in 40 days Nineveh will be destroyed- tight timeline, he marched directly through enemy territory and the city was spared? Serious question- how did Nineveh really know? nothing changed other than their city was spared?
• Another example- Jesus says the temple will be destroyed roughly 30AD time frame and then literally 40 years later it was destroyed. How did people know? It was forty years. think about that.
• Hindsite is 20/20- that is why I say reading bible, speaks to us today. Because we get to see how things unfolded.

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Exactly, he acknoldges what you cannot, that the first endevour was a failure for Nebuchadnezzar. This is exactly my point. Second, the last part of the prophecy is FALSE, he never took Egypt, at all.

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we disagree- would say the first comments of Zeke do not conflict with his second comments they only offer clarification. All the little clues to what is written - the many nations, the waves, specifically calling out the attacking the mainland, the change from He/They.

Yes Neb did attack, defeat Egypt in battle, they also had internal civil war. Long story less long- Egypt declined as power- Neb took booty, took some land. No Neb did not conqueor all of Egypt. we will look at text. I know it will be similar to Tyre.

To be a clear- i am as biased as you are- on the other direction.

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That verse, presented historically would have been STAND ALONE. He would have proclaimed the prophecy prior to the events. And the verses afterward don't even help you or clarify anything about it being alexander.

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I am still not buying what you are selling. Why do we have to chop up Ezekiel, into small sound bites? Answer- that is the only way you win the argument. To me anything about Tyre should be read.

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This is a complete abandonment of your previous argument, you are just throwing anything against the wall to see what sticks. It makes no sense for Ezekial not to mention this, it is not implied anywhere in context. You are just making things up because you refuse to believe the truth.

I'm guessing you are going to say Egypt repented also and that's why the Egypt prophecy failed?

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Aggrad, need to go to work.So ending for now.

1) Why we disagree you try and break Ezekiel up into 30 second soundbites. I look at entire scripture. So what is said in Ezekiel 18 about repentence. We need to remember the process how it works, how God brings justice. It builds on the other chapters. Logic- from OT perspective- if a country is destroyed they did not repent.

2) To be clear- Tyre did not repent and they were eventually destroyed. When it eventually happened, it served as a warning to those alive at time, familar with warning and to future generations.

3) It makes no sense for Ezekial not to mention this- this is simliar to you mandating a timeline has to be given. Why? Where else are timelines given? The truth is it does not, Ezekiel is the author not Aggrad. Remember we are reviewing what Zeke wrote. We agree- we wish Zeke would of been much more specific 'if if's and buts were candy and nuts"

4) Egypt happened, just not the way you want. You want to discredit- will take a very narrow literal interpretation, I will take much more liberal view.

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Oh wise one! To make it more entertaining (not boring) for you, think of Ezekiel as this guy. From Monty Python- Holy Grail- he warns people of the dangers, but they ignore him. It is only when they are actually confronted do they understand. It is no different when I tell you there is a God, that you need to repent and love others. You can believe me or not believe me. but eventually you will be confronted with the truth.

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You don't even understand the points and arguments. You aren't trying to understand them, and you openly ignore the huge number of things you posted that I discredit and then move on to something else. Your post does nothing to answer my question. What would the people believe would happen to tyre reading or hearing ezekials words before the battle.

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2) Ekeziel was not all written at once- Ok we agree Ezekiel was not written all at once- we agree. So what? Ok chapter 29 was written after 26- so what? Ok there was a time break of days, months, years- so what? One still needs to read te entire story.

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I'm not saying not to read the whole story. My interpretation works perfectly within the entire context. It never fails. What I'm saying is that if we take the story as written BEFORE THE BATTLE, no one alive would possibly hold your interpretation. That's what. How can you be dense enough to not see this.

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• Who was the intended audience of Ezekiel? Answer- it was the Jews in exile. Ezekiel makes many many claims, From a literal perspective Ezekiel did not send Tyre a tweet or email.

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Yes, now tell me what they would think would happen when neb attacked tyre based on Ezekiel's words.
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  So my take is some Jews repented and some did not. they had history of moses told to them and witnessed the fall of the north and south kingdoms. They had heard the many warnings of the prophets. So you either pay attention or not.

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This isn't the question booboo, this is just you randomly babbling. The verse was about god punishing the people of tyre. Tell me what the jews alive at the time would think would happen. You run from every single point.
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  Another example- Jesus says the temple will be destroyed roughly 30AD time frame and then literally 40 years later it was destroyed. How did people know? It was forty years. think about that.

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In that instance the "prophecy" (overwhelmingly scholars consider that verse written after the fact), is consistent with the events. That's not true here. A fact you keep running from.
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  Hindsite is 20/20- that is why I say reading bible, speaks to us today. Because we get to see how things unfolded.

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  Yes we know if failed. We know it fails even if we pretend like ignorant children it was referring to alexander. The prophecy fails no matter what you try and assert.

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we disagree- would say the first comments of Zeke do not conflict with his second comments they only offer clarification. All the little clues to what is written - the many nations, the waves, specifically calling out the attacking the mainland, the change from He/They.

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I already debunked this argument. Either go back and address my points or stop with this nonsense. It doesn't work in context. There were no great walls, pillars, or towers on the mainland. The mainland wasn't even called tyre. There is no hundreds of year gap between any two sentences stated or implied.

AND IT FAILS EVEN WITH NUBECHADNEZZAR! You run from this time and again. The city wasn't completely destroyed, not even close. It was nearly immediately rebuilt.

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Yes Neb did attack, defeat Egypt in battle, they also had internal civil war. Long story less long- Egypt declined as power- Neb took booty, took some land. No Neb did not conqueor all of Egypt. we will look at text. I know it will be similar to Tyre.

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Neb lost the battle. What are you talking about? The victory in battle he had over Egypt was before the events in ezekial and are described in Jerimiah. Are you confused and thinking of Cachemish? The battle of Carchemish (which was a defeat of an Egyptian invasion not vice versa) was well before the attack on tyre.

From wiki:
In his fourth year (c. 567 BCE), Amasis was able to defeat an invasion of Egypt by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar II; henceforth, the Babylonians experienced sufficient difficulties controlling their empire that they were forced to abandon future attacks against Amasis. However, Amasis was later faced with a more formidable enemy with the rise of Persia under Cyrus who ascended to the throne in 559 BCE;

It was the great Persian empire that caused the great decline of Egypt. Nebs invasion failed. His victory at Cachemish was before the events in question.

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To be a clear- i am as biased as you are- on the other direction.

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No booboo. You are biased beyond all facts and reason. Not even most Christians carry your bias. No objective observer would agree with you.

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I am still not buying what you are selling. Why do we have to chop up Ezekiel, into small sound bites? Answer- that is the only way you win the argument. To me anything about Tyre should be read.

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I win no matter what. You can't even make the prophecy work with alexander. This is just showing you the depth of your absurdity. We absolutely must look at a consistent interpretation. It must be able to be defended when looking at the entire book AND as written and understood by the people at the time. If we take the verses in question, your interpretation is absolutely bunk. No one alive at the time would understand them as you interpret. My interpretation works both split up, and as a whole. My interpretation is consistent with historical fact, yours is not. Hell my interpretation is even more consistent with a just and loving god than your own.