Doc Daneeka said:

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You use the word coercion and that's wrong. If a store sets up an entrance that goes through a certain aisle first I don't consider that "coercion". That is a marketing tactic. We know for a fact, that laws influence the morality of certain people to and extent and that they end up believing in certain ideas. Why would Christians not attempt to influence all organizations like this. If influence can lead to true belief how is influence bad?

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So, maybe the First Amendment should read:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of the One true Christian religion or any of those other stupid, fake, and immoral religions, or prohibiting the free exercise (even though exercising the wrong religion will send you to Hell) thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Hows that? Marketing! No forceful coercion involved and no freedoms removed.

Doc Daneeka said:

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You have a wierd view of the bible. Are the things done by Christ the only way things are to be done? if Christ rode donkeys into town are we only to enter town on donkeys?

Let's be grown ups for a second

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So the examples of the Prodigal Son and the rich, young ruler only applied to 1st century persons? Christ modeled a non-coercive way. He never once lobbied for Caesar to pass the right laws. The Apostles didn't either. They were more focused on presenting the world with a radically different way. A way not centered on power, but on love and self-sacrifice.

You conveniently ignore these examples because they run directly against your desire to coerce. Coercion may change a mind, but it won't change a heart. God wants our hearts. We do that, not with the ways of the world (political power) but with the way of Christ.

Doc Daneeka said:

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Didn't Christ say render unto Ceasar what is Caesars? Let's make Ceasar a Christian...

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Why should it matter what religion Ceasar is . . . unless you wish for Ceasar to grant special rights or privileges to Christianity?

Doc Daneeka said:

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Didn't Christ say render unto Ceasar what is Caesars? Let's make Ceasar a Christian...

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Such a horrible misapplication of this verse. Goodness.

Doc,
Why do you continue to ignore what people are posting and asking? Can you give me an example of some laws that are going to draw a man's heart closer to God? What are some laws you wish to enact in your theocratic state? What would the penalty be for violating them? Can you reconcile such views with the exact representation of God's nature given to us in Christ crucified? Why do you feel the Prodigal Son and rich, young ruler stories are not applicable to us today?

kurt vonnegut said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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You use the word coercion and that's wrong. If a store sets up an entrance that goes through a certain aisle first I don't consider that "coercion". That is a marketing tactic. We know for a fact, that laws influence the morality of certain people to and extent and that they end up believing in certain ideas. Why would Christians not attempt to influence all organizations like this. If influence can lead to true belief how is influence bad?

---

So, maybe the First Amendment should read:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of the One true Christian religion or any of those other stupid, fake, and immoral religions, or prohibiting the free exercise (even though exercising the wrong religion will send you to Hell) thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Hows that? Marketing! No forceful coercion involved and no freedoms removed.

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This is exactly what I'm saying. Why do we put freedom ahead of truth? The first amendment should say that. We have Supreme Court justices who have no fidelity to the constitution anyways.

Matthew 28:19-20 New Doc Version

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, subjegating them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and forcing them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Doc Dan said:

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Why do we put freedom ahead of truth?

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Again, they're not mutually exclusive, but I imagine you'll just continue to ignore these points.

So if Christ did not do something, he condemns it?

The blood of those who refuse to comply is the seed of the church.
---Tertullian

Doc Daneeka said:

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So if Christ did not do something, he condemns it?

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Doc,

Why do you continue to ignore what people are posting and asking? Can you give me an example of some laws that are going to draw a man's heart closer to God? What are some laws you wish to enact in your theocratic state? What would the penalty be for violating them? Can you reconcile such views with the exact representation of God's nature given to us in Christ crucified? Why do you feel the Prodigal Son and rich, young ruler stories are not applicable to us today?

Everyone knows that laws influence morality of large numbers of people. The fact that Constantine became a Christian and made Christianity the state religion inevitably turned Europe Christian and saved millions of souls and their progeny.

Was this wrong?

Doc Daneeka said:

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So if Christ did not do something, he condemns it?

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Did Christ coerce people to follow Him? Are we supposed to be imitators of Christ? If Christ didn't coerce people to follow Him, especially knowing it's importance, then why would we?

Doc Daneeka said:

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Everyone knows that laws influence morality of large numbers of people. The fact that Constantine became a Christian and made Christianity the state religion inevitably turned Europe Christian and saved millions of souls and their progeny.

Was this wrong?

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Doc Daneeka said:

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Everyone knows that laws influence morality of large numbers of people. The fact that Constantine became a Christian and made Christianity the state religion inevitably turned Europe Christian and saved millions of souls and their progeny.

Was this wrong?

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Ah, so you're an "ends justify the means" person? Also, you're using a man who purposely put off baptism as long as possible so he could be "absolved" from as much sin as possible? Hmmmm, methinks I'll choose the way of Christ on this over the murderous ways of Constantine.

Doc,
If you aren't going to actually address people's posts and questions, then we're not having a discussion. You're simply ranting.

Doc Daneeka said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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Everyone knows that laws influence morality of large numbers of people. The fact that Constantine became a Christian and made Christianity the state religion inevitably turned Europe Christian and saved millions of souls and their progeny.

Was this wrong?

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Still waiting for a yes or no...

Doc Daneeka said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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You use the word coercion and that's wrong. If a store sets up an entrance that goes through a certain aisle first I don't consider that "coercion". That is a marketing tactic. We know for a fact, that laws influence the morality of certain people to and extent and that they end up believing in certain ideas. Why would Christians not attempt to influence all organizations like this. If influence can lead to true belief how is influence bad?

---

So, maybe the First Amendment should read:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of the One true Christian religion or any of those other stupid, fake, and immoral religions, or prohibiting the free exercise (even though exercising the wrong religion will send you to Hell) thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Hows that? Marketing! No forceful coercion involved and no freedoms removed.

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This is exactly what I'm saying. Why do we put freedom ahead of truth? The first amendment should say that. We have Supreme Court justices who have no fidelity to the constitution anyways.

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What you want isn't salvation for non-believers, its moral and religious authoritarianism stemming from self-righteous sanctimony.

Doc Daneeka said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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Everyone knows that laws influence morality of large numbers of people. The fact that Constantine became a Christian and made Christianity the state religion inevitably turned Europe Christian and saved millions of souls and their progeny.

Was this wrong?

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Was this wrong? Yes or no?

Doc Daneeka said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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Everyone knows that laws influence morality of large numbers of people. The fact that Constantine became a Christian and made Christianity the state religion inevitably turned Europe Christian and saved millions of souls and their progeny.

Was this wrong?

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Still waiting for a yes or no...

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If your God is one who would 'save' or 'damn' millions of souls based on the accident of their particular geography or history, then your God is wrong in my book.

I don't think you quite understand how conversation works. I'll help you:

Person A: Asks question
Person B: Answers question, asks their own
Person A: Answers question, asks their own
Rinse and repeat

Conversation, however, does not go like this:

Person A: Asks question
Person B: Answers question, asks their own
Person A: Ignores question, asks their own
Person B: Answers question and repeats initial question
Person A: Ignores question, asks their own


Considering I refer to Constantine's ways as "murderous", you can guess how I feel about his approach. It was telling that he purposely put off baptism until the end of his life. Now, answer my questions.

So is that a yes or a no? Lol

Martin Q. Blank said:

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I don't believe in most of the first amendment.

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Can you elaborate? What parts don't you believe in? Why not?

ku said:

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What you want isn't salvation for non-believers, its moral and religious authoritarianism stemming from self-righteous sanctimony.

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Ding! Ding! Ding! Salvation doesn't come from coercion. Compliance comes from coercion. One is in the heart. The other is in the mind.

Doc Daneeka said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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Everyone knows that laws influence morality of large numbers of people. The fact that Constantine became a Christian and made Christianity the state religion inevitably turned Europe Christian and saved millions of souls and their progeny.

Was this wrong?

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Here it is for you one more time retired... Yes or no...

Doc Daneeka said:

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So is that a yes or a no? Lol

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You show me a picture of yellow and ask me if its black or white.

Umm ok bruh... I'll put you down for no.

Doc Daneeka said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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Everyone knows that laws influence morality of large numbers of people. The fact that Constantine became a Christian and made Christianity the state religion inevitably turned Europe Christian and saved millions of souls and their progeny.

Was this wrong?

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Here it is for you one more time retired... Yes or no...

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So you simply don't answer other people's questions then? Got it.

But, since you want to play some cute little game, I'll answer in hopes that you actually respond to the numerous questions you've conveniently dodged here. Yes, Constantine was wrong to spread the gospel at the point of the sword. Absolutely wrong. He even knew this, which explains why he waited until he was near death to be baptized. Is God able to work through the evil actions of others? Absolutely. We saw it throughout the Scriptures. That doesn't mean God endorses the evil.

It's quite telling that your defense is Constantine, but not Christ. Christ gave us a clear model when it comes to whether we should coerce people to Him.

So now, can you please address the countless questions that you've been dodging?

Constantine murdered people at the sword to convert to Christianity lol... Ok bub

So now, can you please address the countless questions that you've been dodging?

I'm not being evasive - I simply reject the two options you've given me as not sufficient to answer the question. There are good things about a Christian Europe and some bad things. If you ask me if the good outweighs the bad, I might be inclined to say yes. If you want a 'yes' or 'no' answer, you are better off asking someone who believes in a more binary right / wrong.

I'm still curious as to what laws, backed through the threat of violence, draw people closer to Christ. I would like to see a few examples of the kinds of laws he wants to enact, and explain how they'll lead others to Christ. Of course, I'd really love it if Doc would address the fact that Christ never once used coercion to get followers, but instead let those who rejected Him leave freely. Of course, I'm sure we'll just be met with more absurdly poor analogies and deflections instead of actually addressing posts/questions.

I can't get over how much you sound like a Muslim. They took think if the just convert everyone at the point of a sword they will save millions and find peace. They too think the ends justify the means.

Ok how about a hypothetical. If the next president of America is a super charismatic Christian and convinces congress to add an amendment naming Christianity as the State Religion... Would this be bad?

In four or five generations there would be true believers from millions of offspring of current generations. Obviously there would still be unbelievers. Would this be wrong?