Who's words are more important?

Is Paul teaching anything that is incompatible with Christ's teachings?

You imply a hierarchy of words where there is none.

Do Christ & Paul ever contradict each other?

It would probably be helpful to post any conflicting teachings. I mean, if there is a conflict, obviously Christ trumps all. But I'm not aware of a conflict, so it seems like the question is creating a separation that doesn't seem to exist.

I really am wondering. Because paul is the person who preached justification by faith but Jesus never said that. He even told someone to sell all his possessions, which is works and not faith.

Considering Jesus is the Son of God, his words are more important than anyone's. That does not minimize Paul's words in the least though, since they are in accord with the will of Jesus. This shouldn't be framed as an either / or dichotomy though, but rather a both / and.

Paul did not say justification by faith ALONE....and neither did Jesus.

Perhaps you would do well to heed the words of Paul:

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For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

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oh, and "whose"

Doc Daneeka said:

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I really am wondering. Because paul is the person who preached justification by faith but Jesus never said that. He even told someone to sell all his possessions, which is works and not faith.

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The point of that incident with the rich, young ruler isn't to say salvation is works-based. Jesus knew his heart and that even though he said, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.", his obedience was not grounded in faith.

Christ did say, however, "that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." The "works" are a result of the faith. Christ was showing the ruler that his faith was placed not in Him, but in his possessions and worldly things.

Doc Daneeka said:

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Who's words are more important?

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Jesus's words are more important. I don't think this is really a debate. Each individual gospel story may or may not be more important than an individual epistle, but that's not the same argument.

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Because paul is the person who preached justification by faith but Jesus never said that. He even told someone to sell all his possessions, which is works and not faith.

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The story is a lot less simple than what you're making it out to be as evidenced by the fact that Christians still can't agree on its meaning. I don't think what Jesus and Paul are saying are even on the same subject.

It's interesting to me because it seems the idea of justification by faith alone was really a Pauline extension. Whereas Christ taught more about morality and the kingdom.

Is there a place in the bible where Christ "explicitly" speaks about justification by faith?

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Is there a place in the bible where Christ "explicitly" speaks about justification by faith?

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Here?:

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"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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RetiredAg said:

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Is there a place in the bible where Christ "explicitly" speaks about justification by faith?

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Here?:

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"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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Can we receive an exegesis on the etymology of the words that were translated to "believes in him" and all that that phraseology implied in the original language?

John 3: 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light BECAUSE their works were evil.

Doc Daneeka said:

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John 3: 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light BECAUSE their works were evil.

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That's how it's known they "loved the darkness". It's because their works were evil that we know they loved darkness. Their fruits were evil, therefore we know they loved darkness.

jesus in which gospel?

Where do you find St Paul saying "justification by faith alone"?

Well, the original language was Greek.

The verb believe is pisteuo from the noun pistis, "faith".

In John 3:16 it is pisteuon,verb - present participle active - nominative masculine singular.

So basically you have to have faith in Christ, present tense, ongoing, in a continuous action. Not a one-and-done.

I never really thought about the use of the word kosmos, the world / universe / inhabitants of the world here. It's interesting because it's a statement of the love for all mankind, not just the Jews. This is offered to anyone, "everyone believing in Him". Everyone or whosoever is pas - all, the whole, every kind of, each part of the total.

k2aggie07 said:

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Where do you find St Paul saying "justification by faith alone"?

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Romans 4

Quote please.

The only place I know that "faith alone" is written is Martin Luther's spurious translation in German.

k2aggie07 said:

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Quote please.

The only place I know that "faith alone" is written is Martin Luther's spurious translation in German.

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When a bunch of sentences are read together... They form an idea...

Hence faith alone...

Hence the trinity...

You can disavow faith alone once you disavow the trinity ...

And when a bunch of ideas come together?

How do you read James 2:14? How about James 1:22?

Do you think there's a contradiction there? Or perhaps they are showing two sides of the same coin in perfect harmony.

Works are a result of faith... Not two sides of a coin

Please show me the bible verse which says this. My bible says:

What is the profit, my brothers, if anyone says to have faith, but has no works? Is the faith able to save him?

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

k2aggie07 said:

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Please show me the bible verse which says this. My bible says:

What is the profit, my brothers, if anyone says to have faith, but has no works? Is the faith able to save him?

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

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Who do you believe has more weight... James or Jesus... ?

Checkmate again?

No. Your task is now to find the inconsistency between the words of St James and the words of Christ. You're introducing a false dichotomy.

The words of Jesus trump everything else....except these words of course...these words spoken by Jesus himself while he was teaching we must ignore because...???

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John 6:
I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

The Jews/mainline protestants quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?"

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
The Words of Eternal Life.*

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

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My point is Jesus' words trump everything... So if there is an interpretation of a verse that is inconsistent with Jesus' words, it needs to be interpreted differently. Since James speaks of faith and works and Jesus speaks only of faith in John 3:16, we must assume that James is talking about faith and works as merely an extension. Not works AND faith.

Faith is necessary for salvation, but not sufficient.

Nothing that Jesus said indicates that Faith Alone is required for eternal salvation.

So how do you explain John 3:16

With that approach, you should just remove everything from the Bible that wasn't written by Jesus.

Doc Daneeka said:

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So how do you explain John 3:16

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For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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Jesus' sacrifice makes it possible. This passage does not preclude that this belief is necessary but not sufficient.

So let's take a look at how St. Paul interpreted/taught about the importance of the Eucharist in 1Cor...look pretty consistent with what Jesus said in John 6.

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23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

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