Dr. Watson said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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The catholic church prereformation resembled the Caliphate of Islam in the golden age of Islam. It was a political and religious movement. This is why most people consider protestants the founders of western democracy. They put a "wall between church and state"

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What wall? Liberal democracy theory expanded the most in France during the 18th century. You know, a Catholic country.

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Ok im not sure why you thing that. The Second Treastise of Government (one example of many) largely influenced our Founding Fathers was written in 1689 in England. But thats just one example. France had protestants as well.

Protestants laid the foundation for the western world.

Doc Daneeka said:

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Shut it down said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

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Shut it down said:

---

The holy spirit didn't write the Bible, it worked through the apostolic church and divinely inspired the Bishops to discern what was scriptural and what wasn't out of all the letters, epistles, diaries and other religious writings of the time. Why did the Holy Spirit only work through the Bishops? Why did the Protestants throw away books widely considered canonical after 15 centuries?

---

Bro ... The Holy spirit wrote the bible through humans. It was inspired. Even Catholics believe this... Am i wrong??!??

---

The holy spirit didn't write the Bible, people wrote the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit. There's a gigantic difference. The Bishops had to come together and pick out which writings were divinely inspired. They put those writings in a compendium that became the Bible. It wasn't like they set out to write the Bible start to finish. They took established documents, audited them, and approved their divinity at a series of Councils in the 4th century in Africa.

---

I want you to take a second and read these to sentences...

1. The Holy spirit wrote the bible through humans. (mine)
2. The holy spirit didn't write the Bible, people wrote the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit (yours)

lol

---

The Holy Spirit didn't write the bible, even through humans. Humans wrote the Bible with insight divinely poured out by the Holy Spirit. You're phrasing it your way to get around the enormous sticking point of Catholic Bishops deciding what was scripture and what wasn't for all of Christianity, which was maintained for nigh 15 centuries.

Locke's second treatise was not the central document the framers used. The framers were classical republicans more than liberals. But this argument does not end in America. There was a much bigger, even more democratic movement that happened in 1789 that was far more important for the development of liberal democratic theory across Europe and even in the US. And that little movement happened in Catholic France. France was the center of the Enlightenment. You can't try to magically make England the center. It wasn't. France saw the greatest philosophical and social evolution beginning with Descartes and ending with Napoleon.

Doc Daneeka said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

---

The catholic church prereformation resembled the Caliphate of Islam in the golden age of Islam. It was a political and religious movement. This is why most people consider protestants the founders of western democracy. They put a "wall between church and state"

---

What wall? Liberal democracy theory expanded the most in France during the 18th century. You know, a Catholic country.

---

Ok im not sure why you thing that. The Second Treastise of Government (one example of many) largely influenced our Founding Fathers was written in 1689 in England. But thats just one example. France had protestants as well.

Protestants laid the foundation for the western world.

---

You are insane. The Western World came into being in the 16th century? What about the Catholic Kingdoms of Western Europe? What religion was England when the Magna Carta was written?

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

Shut it down said:

---

The holy spirit didn't write the Bible, it worked through the apostolic church and divinely inspired the Bishops to discern what was scriptural and what wasn't out of all the letters, epistles, diaries and other religious writings of the time. Why did the Holy Spirit only work through the Bishops? Why did the Protestants throw away books widely considered canonical after 15 centuries?

---

Bro ... The Holy spirit wrote the bible through humans. It was inspired. Even Catholics believe this... Am i wrong??!??

---

The holy spirit didn't write the Bible, people wrote the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit. There's a gigantic difference. The Bishops had to come together and pick out which writings were divinely inspired. They put those writings in a compendium that became the Bible. It wasn't like they set out to write the Bible start to finish. They took established documents, audited them, and approved their divinity at a series of Councils in the 4th century in Africa.

---

I want you to take a second and read these to sentences...

1. The Holy spirit wrote the bible through humans. (mine)
2. The holy spirit didn't write the Bible, people wrote the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit (yours)

lol

---

The Holy Spirit didn't write the bible, even through humans. Humans wrote the Bible with insight divinely poured out by the Holy Spirit. You're phrasing it your way to get around the enormous sticking point of Catholic Bishops deciding what was scripture and what wasn't for all of Christianity, which was maintained for nigh 15 centuries.

---

Well I do see what youre saying. Its like this ..the protestants did not believe some of the books in the catholic bible were divinely inspired. So those books were removed. Much like many of the traditions the catholic church performed. We do not believe in purgatory either. That was an invention to quell the conscious of a universalist.. The books removed were found contrary to the teachings of jesus.

Where is the word Trinity in the bible?

What year did the Holy Spirit write the bible?

The "Protestant Bible" eh?

What year did that happen? Are those two years the same thing?.... No? Weird huh?

For someone that's all "oh man it's all about the bible" you sure don't use much scripture.

You can argue with me. The western world changed after the Protestant reformation. This is a widely held consensus among academia. The protestants laid the foundation for modern western democracy.

Yes... there was still an England and a France and a Germany. But they were different. Power was returned to the people when the leviathan of the catholic church who held the "keys to heaven" and the conscience of the people hostage.. was ignored.

Member when I said that people in the West have an ellipsis view of Christianity and the world and act like the constitution was handed down from on high / was an original document rooted in stuff that happened after the 1400s?

I member.

k2aggie07 said:

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Where is the word Trinity in the bible?

What year did the Holy Spirit write the bible?

The "Protestant Bible" eh?

What year did that happen? Are those two years the same thing?.... No? Weird huh?

For someone that's all "oh man it's all about the bible" you sure don't use much scripture.

---

Im confused. Do you not believe the bible was written by the holy spirit through humans?

Trinity is in the bible not explicitly but it is revealed.

Purgatory is not revealed anywhere but in the imagination of some middle age priest in the middle ages.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Member when I said that people in the West have an ellipsis view of Christianity and the world and act like the constitution was handed down from on high / was an original document rooted in stuff that happened after the 1400s?

I member.

---

Remember when they were right.

If history created a better civilization through some other movement id be happy to hear it...

:-)

Quote:

---

The western world changed after the Protestant reformation. [Unsupported cause vs correlation relationship]

This is a widely held consensus among academia. [Appeal to authority]

The protestants laid the foundation for modern western democracy. [Unsupported and vague since protestant covers everything from Lutherans to Zwinglians to Presbyterians to Calvinists to Church of England]

Yes... there was still an England and a France and a Germany. But they were different. [Why?]


Power was returned to the people [Which people? The Kings and nobles? Or...?] when the leviathan of the catholic church who held the "keys to heaven" and the conscience of the people hostage.. was ignored.

---

Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.

Ohhh, so it's not "sola scriptura" but "sola scriptura plus things that are not explicit but are revealed in scripture".

Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Quote:

---

The western world changed after the Protestant reformation. [Unsupported cause vs correlation relationship]

This is a widely held consensus among academia. [Appeal to authority]

The protestants laid the foundation for modern western democracy. [Unsupported and vague since protestant covers everything from Lutherans to Zwinglians to Presbyterians to Calvinists to Church of England]

Yes... there was still an England and a France and a Germany. But they were different. [Why?]


Power was returned to the people [Which people? The Kings and nobles? Or...?] when the leviathan of the catholic church who held the "keys to heaven" and the conscience of the people hostage.. was ignored.

---

Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.

---

Like I said. Believe what you want. Im just saying what protestants believe theologically and what academia believes about the reformation.

But like i said believe what you want. Ill read my bible. You read yours.

Wait, are we talking geopolitics or religion? I'm really confused now.

Was the reformation a significant event? Undoubtedly. But it seems to be a chiefly American / Modern view to take this as some sort of triumphant blend of political philosophy and religion that won a victory over "evil Rome" and by omission all Christianity before it.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Wait, are we talking geopolitics or religion? I'm really confused now.

Was the reformation a significant event? Undoubtedly. But it seems to be a chiefly American / Modern view to take this as some sort of triumphant blend of political philosophy and religion that won a victory over "evil Rome" and by omission all Christianity before it.

---

Im not sure why you are so defensive. The reformation was a religious movement with major political ramifications.

Like i said. Believe what you want. I think the most important thing is to believe that Jesus is god and that he died for our sins and that if we believe in him we will have eternal life. Everything else is minutiae. Thats what i believe.

Doc Daneeka said:

---

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

Shut it down said:

---

The holy spirit didn't write the Bible, it worked through the apostolic church and divinely inspired the Bishops to discern what was scriptural and what wasn't out of all the letters, epistles, diaries and other religious writings of the time. Why did the Holy Spirit only work through the Bishops? Why did the Protestants throw away books widely considered canonical after 15 centuries?

---

Bro ... The Holy spirit wrote the bible through humans. It was inspired. Even Catholics believe this... Am i wrong??!??

---

The holy spirit didn't write the Bible, people wrote the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit. There's a gigantic difference. The Bishops had to come together and pick out which writings were divinely inspired. They put those writings in a compendium that became the Bible. It wasn't like they set out to write the Bible start to finish. They took established documents, audited them, and approved their divinity at a series of Councils in the 4th century in Africa.

---

I want you to take a second and read these to sentences...

1. The Holy spirit wrote the bible through humans. (mine)
2. The holy spirit didn't write the Bible, people wrote the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit (yours)

lol

---

The Holy Spirit didn't write the bible, even through humans. Humans wrote the Bible with insight divinely poured out by the Holy Spirit. You're phrasing it your way to get around the enormous sticking point of Catholic Bishops deciding what was scripture and what wasn't for all of Christianity, which was maintained for nigh 15 centuries.

---

Well I do see what youre saying. Its like this ..the protestants did not believe some of the books in the catholic bible were divinely inspired. So those books were removed. Much like many of the traditions the catholic church performed. We do not believe in purgatory either. That was an invention to quell the conscious of a universalist.. The books removed were found contrary to the teachings of jesus.

---

But the original protestants, Luther, Zwingli and Calvin all believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and many other Catholic doctrines, they were also wildly anti-birth control.

Your argument is untenable, some doctrines that contradicted the teachings of Jesus were thrown out as were some bible verses, but others were kept. Many doctrines that the reformers thought were sound and are indistinguishable from Orthodox Catholicism were later decided to be wrong (some in the 1900's)

Doc Daneeka said:

---

k2aggie07 said:

---

Quote:

---

The western world changed after the Protestant reformation. [Unsupported cause vs correlation relationship]

This is a widely held consensus among academia. [Appeal to authority]

The protestants laid the foundation for modern western democracy. [Unsupported and vague since protestant covers everything from Lutherans to Zwinglians to Presbyterians to Calvinists to Church of England]

Yes... there was still an England and a France and a Germany. But they were different. [Why?]


Power was returned to the people [Which people? The Kings and nobles? Or...?] when the leviathan of the catholic church who held the "keys to heaven" and the conscience of the people hostage.. was ignored.

---

Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.

---

Like I said. Believe what you want. Im just saying what protestants believe theologically and what academia believes about the reformation.

But like i said believe what you want. Ill read my bible. You read yours.

---

If God divinely inspired the people who discerned the canonicity of the books of the Bible, why were they wrong about a few? Does Luther's desire to throw out other books currently included in the Bible worry you about the authority behind the exclusion of others?

Doc Daneeka said:

---

k2aggie07 said:

---

Wait, are we talking geopolitics or religion? I'm really confused now.

Was the reformation a significant event? Undoubtedly. But it seems to be a chiefly American / Modern view to take this as some sort of triumphant blend of political philosophy and religion that won a victory over "evil Rome" and by omission all Christianity before it.

---

Im not sure why you are so defensive. The reformation was a religious movement with major political ramifications.

Like i said. Believe what you want. I think the most important thing is to believe that Jesus is god and that he died for our sins and that if we believe in him we will have eternal life. Everything else is minutiae. Thats what i believe.

---

That's fine but that is why some accusations of Protestantism being a made up religion have more than a little bit of truth to them. Instead of 1 pope you have millions.

Big factors in the writing / political philosophy of the declaration of independence and the US constitution include but are not limited to:

• Herodotus' Histories (c. 440 BC)
• Plato's Republic (c 380 BC)
• Aristotle's Politics (c. 4th century BC)
• The various works of Cicero (40-80 BC) Plutarch (c 100 AD) and so forth
• Tacitus' Histories and Annals (c 100 AD)
• The Magna Carta (1215)
• More's Utopia (1516)
• Sydney's Discourses Concerning Government (1680)
• Neville's Plato Redivivus (1681)
• Locke's Two Treatises, Concerning Human Understanding, Concerning Toleration, etc. (1690s)
• Hume's Treatise of Human Nature (1738)
• Montesquieu's Spirit of the Laws (1748)

It is no secret of history that our framers drew from examples through the millennia when they wrote our constitution. In some ways, it is one of the least original documents ever written. On the other hand, as a whole greater than the sum of it is parts it is one of the finest achievements of mankind.

I would encourage everyone to read these books and see the chain of political philosophy that our great constitution was a part of. It was not a product of the Reformation. It was a product of thousands of years of human political evolution and knowledge, the next link in an ever growing chain.

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

k2aggie07 said:

---

Quote:

---

The western world changed after the Protestant reformation. [Unsupported cause vs correlation relationship]

This is a widely held consensus among academia. [Appeal to authority]

The protestants laid the foundation for modern western democracy. [Unsupported and vague since protestant covers everything from Lutherans to Zwinglians to Presbyterians to Calvinists to Church of England]

Yes... there was still an England and a France and a Germany. But they were different. [Why?]


Power was returned to the people [Which people? The Kings and nobles? Or...?] when the leviathan of the catholic church who held the "keys to heaven" and the conscience of the people hostage.. was ignored.

---

Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.

---

Like I said. Believe what you want. Im just saying what protestants believe theologically and what academia believes about the reformation.

But like i said believe what you want. Ill read my bible. You read yours.

---

If God divinely inspired the people who discerned the canonicity of the books of the Bible, why were they wrong about a few? Does Luther's desire to throw out other books currently included in the Bible worry you about the authority behind the exclusion of others?

---

The Holy spirit is in all believers. If a hearer of a doctrine with the Holy Spirit does not recognize the Holy Spirit in that doctrine then its not from the Holy spirit. So the Holy Spirit in the writers was recognized by the ones who formed the protestant bible.

I believe this is how they formed the Catholic bible also, am I wrong. The catholic bible was formed the same way.

They will know my voice when they hear me. That kind of thing

I'm not defensive. I'm asking you questions and you keep responding with half-formed and frankly boring talking points that can't withstand even basic inspection.

You could just as easily (and truthfully) say that the Reformation was a political movement with major religious ramifications. I actually think that my version is probably closer to the mark. This is why the great disputes of the reformation were not settled by bishops or priests but princes and kings.

"Everything else is minutiae". The rallying cry of minimalist modern evanglicalism. Such a shame.

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

k2aggie07 said:

---

Wait, are we talking geopolitics or religion? I'm really confused now.

Was the reformation a significant event? Undoubtedly. But it seems to be a chiefly American / Modern view to take this as some sort of triumphant blend of political philosophy and religion that won a victory over "evil Rome" and by omission all Christianity before it.

---

Im not sure why you are so defensive. The reformation was a religious movement with major political ramifications.

Like i said. Believe what you want. I think the most important thing is to believe that Jesus is god and that he died for our sins and that if we believe in him we will have eternal life. Everything else is minutiae. Thats what i believe.

---

That's fine but that is why some accusations of Protestantism being a made up religion have more than a little bit of truth to them. Instead of 1 pope you have millions.

---

The Holy Spirit is our pope. Not a person. We dont need a leader. Man is sinful.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Big factors in the writing / political philosophy of the declaration of independence and the US constitution include but are not limited to:

• Herodotus' Histories (c. 440 BC)
• Plato's Republic (c 380 BC)
• Aristotle's Politics (c. 4th century BC)
• The various works of Cicero (40-80 BC) Plutarch (c 100 AD) and so forth
• Tacitus' Histories and Annals (c 100 AD)
• The Magna Carta (1215)
• More's Utopia (1516)
• Sydney's Discourses Concerning Government (1680)
• Neville's Plato Redivivus (1681)
• Locke's Two Treatises, Concerning Human Understanding, Concerning Toleration, etc. (1690s)
• Hume's Treatise of Human Nature (1738)
• Montesquieu's Spirit of the Laws (1748)

It is no secret of history that our framers drew from examples through the millennia when they wrote our constitution. In some ways, it is one of the least original documents ever written. On the other hand, as a whole greater than the sum of it is parts it is one of the finest achievements of mankind.

I would encourage everyone to read these books and see the chain of political philosophy that our great constitution was a part of. It was not a product of the Reformation. It was a product of thousands of years of human political evolution and knowledge, the next link in an ever growing chain.

---

Yes the Founders read a lot of stuff and were influenced by a lot of stuff. But it is intellectually dishonest to say that the separation of church and state is not the pinnacle of the west and stemmed from the protestant movement.

Doc Daneeka said:

---

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

k2aggie07 said:

---

Quote:

---

The western world changed after the Protestant reformation. [Unsupported cause vs correlation relationship]

This is a widely held consensus among academia. [Appeal to authority]

The protestants laid the foundation for modern western democracy. [Unsupported and vague since protestant covers everything from Lutherans to Zwinglians to Presbyterians to Calvinists to Church of England]

Yes... there was still an England and a France and a Germany. But they were different. [Why?]


Power was returned to the people [Which people? The Kings and nobles? Or...?] when the leviathan of the catholic church who held the "keys to heaven" and the conscience of the people hostage.. was ignored.

---

Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.

---

Like I said. Believe what you want. Im just saying what protestants believe theologically and what academia believes about the reformation.

But like i said believe what you want. Ill read my bible. You read yours.

---

If God divinely inspired the people who discerned the canonicity of the books of the Bible, why were they wrong about a few? Does Luther's desire to throw out other books currently included in the Bible worry you about the authority behind the exclusion of others?

---

The Holy spirit is in all believers. If a hearer of a doctrine with the Holy Spirit does not recognize the Holy Spirit in that doctrine then its not from the Holy spirit. So the Holy Spirit in the writers was recognized by the ones who formed the protestant bible.

I believe this is how they formed the Catholic bible also, am I wrong. The catholic bible was formed the same way.

They will know my voice when they hear me. That kind of thing

---

No, that's not how the Catholic Bible was formed. Like everything else in Christianity, the Bible was formed by Catholic Bishops ( whenever I say Catholic I include Orthodox as well pre 1054) at a council of bishops. It wasnt just any believer, it had to be upheld by the descendents of the apostles who were tasked to shepherd the flock of Christ.

I am a believer, can I go remove books from the Bible? People hear a lot of voices, is the book of Mormon canonical?

And furthermore, i do think the Orthodox church was one step in the right direction when they split with the Bishop of Rome.

They did not appoint one bishop to be the leader but all were equal. I (personally dont know about other protestants) see this as being closer to Protestantism than Catholicism.

Doc Daneeka said:

---

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

k2aggie07 said:

---

Wait, are we talking geopolitics or religion? I'm really confused now.

Was the reformation a significant event? Undoubtedly. But it seems to be a chiefly American / Modern view to take this as some sort of triumphant blend of political philosophy and religion that won a victory over "evil Rome" and by omission all Christianity before it.

---

Im not sure why you are so defensive. The reformation was a religious movement with major political ramifications.

Like i said. Believe what you want. I think the most important thing is to believe that Jesus is god and that he died for our sins and that if we believe in him we will have eternal life. Everything else is minutiae. Thats what i believe.

---

That's fine but that is why some accusations of Protestantism being a made up religion have more than a little bit of truth to them. Instead of 1 pope you have millions.

---

The Holy Spirit is our pope. Not a person. We dont need a leader. Man is sinful.

---

Great, so each individual becomes the arbiter of what is truth. Jesus is the Head of the Church, the Pope is the first among equals of the Bishops. The Church decides authentic teaching. That is how everything in Christianity was decides, not individual interpretation. That is how you end up with thousands of different denominations, and beliefs.

Doc Daneeka said:

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The western world changed after the Protestant reformation.

---

It also changed after world war 1. What's your point.

Doc Daneeka said:

---

And furthermore, i do think the Orthodox church was one step in the right direction when they split with the Bishop of Rome.

They did not appoint one bishop to be the leader but all were equal. I (personally dont know about other protestants) see this as being closer to Protestantism than Catholicism.

---

Orthodox aren't Protestant. I think the Catholics and Orthodox were both wrong, I also still think they're both the Church of Christ. They also view the Pope as the rightful Bishop of Rome and the first among all Bishops.

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

k2aggie07 said:

---

Quote:

---

The western world changed after the Protestant reformation. [Unsupported cause vs correlation relationship]

This is a widely held consensus among academia. [Appeal to authority]

The protestants laid the foundation for modern western democracy. [Unsupported and vague since protestant covers everything from Lutherans to Zwinglians to Presbyterians to Calvinists to Church of England]

Yes... there was still an England and a France and a Germany. But they were different. [Why?]


Power was returned to the people [Which people? The Kings and nobles? Or...?] when the leviathan of the catholic church who held the "keys to heaven" and the conscience of the people hostage.. was ignored.

---

Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.

---

Like I said. Believe what you want. Im just saying what protestants believe theologically and what academia believes about the reformation.

But like i said believe what you want. Ill read my bible. You read yours.

---

If God divinely inspired the people who discerned the canonicity of the books of the Bible, why were they wrong about a few? Does Luther's desire to throw out other books currently included in the Bible worry you about the authority behind the exclusion of others?

---

The Holy spirit is in all believers. If a hearer of a doctrine with the Holy Spirit does not recognize the Holy Spirit in that doctrine then its not from the Holy spirit. So the Holy Spirit in the writers was recognized by the ones who formed the protestant bible.

I believe this is how they formed the Catholic bible also, am I wrong. The catholic bible was formed the same way.

They will know my voice when they hear me. That kind of thing

---

No, that's not how the Catholic Bible was formed. Like everything else in Christianity, the Bible was formed by Catholic Bishops ( whenever I say Catholic I include Orthodox as well pre 1054) at a council of bishops. It wasnt just any believer, it had to be upheld by the descendents of the apostles who were tasked to shepherd the flock of Christ.

I am a believer, can I go remove books from the Bible? People hear a lot of voices, is the book of Mormon canonical?

---

So this is the heart of the matter. Protestants read the words themselves and prayed to god themselves. Jesus did not set up an army with a chain of command. He made a priesthood of all believers. Protestants recognized that man does not have a monopoly on god. HIs heart and faith will guide him.

The Magna Carta was the first document to mention separation of Church and State and was written in Catholic England.

Shut it down said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

---

And furthermore, i do think the Orthodox church was one step in the right direction when they split with the Bishop of Rome.

They did not appoint one bishop to be the leader but all were equal. I (personally dont know about other protestants) see this as being closer to Protestantism than Catholicism.

---

Orthodox aren't Protestant. I think the Catholics and Orthodox were both wrong, I also still think they're both the Church of Christ. They also view the Pope as the rightful Bishop of Rome and the first among all Bishops.

---

yes i know that orthodox arent protesant

Shut it down said:

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The Magna Carta was the first document to mention separation of Church and State and was written in Catholic England.

---

No magna carta was about Due process

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

---

k2aggie07 said:

---

Wait, are we talking geopolitics or religion? I'm really confused now.

Was the reformation a significant event? Undoubtedly. But it seems to be a chiefly American / Modern view to take this as some sort of triumphant blend of political philosophy and religion that won a victory over "evil Rome" and by omission all Christianity before it.

---

Im not sure why you are so defensive. The reformation was a religious movement with major political ramifications.

Like i said. Believe what you want. I think the most important thing is to believe that Jesus is god and that he died for our sins and that if we believe in him we will have eternal life. Everything else is minutiae. Thats what i believe.

---

That's fine but that is why some accusations of Protestantism being a made up religion have more than a little bit of truth to them. Instead of 1 pope you have millions.

---

The Holy Spirit is our pope. Not a person. We dont need a leader. Man is sinful.

---

Great, so each individual becomes the arbiter of what is truth. Jesus is the Head of the Church, the Pope is the first among equals of the Bishops. The Church decides authentic teaching. That is how everything in Christianity was decides, not individual interpretation. That is how you end up with thousands of different denominations, and beliefs.

---

And hence how democracy started...

freedom is scary...

Yes, you're wrong. There really was no such thing as "the bible" until relatively late in the game. The canon was fairly fluid, and what canons we had were usually defined as what books were suitable to be used liturgically.

In history nearly always the litmus test for the safety of scriptures is their use in the Church. Take, for example, St Cyril of Jerusalem: "Study earnestly these only which we read openly in the Church. Far wiser and more pious than thyself were the Apostles, and the bishops of old time, the presidents of the Church who handed down these books." Or Eusebius regarding Hermas "Hence, as we know, it has been publicly read in churches, and I have found that some of the most ancient writers used it." Or the (local) council of Carthage "because we have received from our fathers that those books must be read in the Church." Or the (local) council of Laodicea "Let no private psalms nor any uncanonical books be read in church, but only the canonical ones of the New and Old Testament."

Doc Daneeka said:

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Shut it down said:

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Doc Daneeka said:

---

Shut it down said:

---

Doc Daneeka said:

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k2aggie07 said:

---

Quote:

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The western world changed after the Protestant reformation. [Unsupported cause vs correlation relationship]

This is a widely held consensus among academia. [Appeal to authority]

The protestants laid the foundation for modern western democracy. [Unsupported and vague since protestant covers everything from Lutherans to Zwinglians to Presbyterians to Calvinists to Church of England]

Yes... there was still an England and a France and a Germany. But they were different. [Why?]


Power was returned to the people [Which people? The Kings and nobles? Or...?] when the leviathan of the catholic church who held the "keys to heaven" and the conscience of the people hostage.. was ignored.

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Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.

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Like I said. Believe what you want. Im just saying what protestants believe theologically and what academia believes about the reformation.

But like i said believe what you want. Ill read my bible. You read yours.

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If God divinely inspired the people who discerned the canonicity of the books of the Bible, why were they wrong about a few? Does Luther's desire to throw out other books currently included in the Bible worry you about the authority behind the exclusion of others?

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The Holy spirit is in all believers. If a hearer of a doctrine with the Holy Spirit does not recognize the Holy Spirit in that doctrine then its not from the Holy spirit. So the Holy Spirit in the writers was recognized by the ones who formed the protestant bible.

I believe this is how they formed the Catholic bible also, am I wrong. The catholic bible was formed the same way.

They will know my voice when they hear me. That kind of thing

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No, that's not how the Catholic Bible was formed. Like everything else in Christianity, the Bible was formed by Catholic Bishops ( whenever I say Catholic I include Orthodox as well pre 1054) at a council of bishops. It wasnt just any believer, it had to be upheld by the descendents of the apostles who were tasked to shepherd the flock of Christ.

I am a believer, can I go remove books from the Bible? People hear a lot of voices, is the book of Mormon canonical?

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So this is the heart of the matter. Protestants read the words themselves and prayed to god themselves. Jesus did not set up an army with a chain of command. He made a priesthood of all believers. Protestants recognized that man does not have a monopoly on god. HIs heart and faith will guide him.

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He literally did set up a chain of command, he gave the Apostles the keys to the kingdom of heaven . In ACTS the Apostles meet at the Council of Jerusalem to define doctrine.

Every single thing that defined Christian belief came from Councils of Bishops, not just normal Christians, only the Bishops. Since the days of the Bible writings, again evident in ACTS.