The Reformation: Return to Truth or Tragic Mistake?

8,030 Views | 340 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Doc Daneeka
BlackGoldAg2011
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AG
Just discovered this podcast last week, Unbelievable? It is essentially a debate format radio show where the host tries to explore different areas of Christianity by bringing in guests of opposing views on the issue (usually a christian and an atheist) who are able to speak intelligently on the subject to try to flush out the strongest arguments for each side.

With all of the protestant/orthodox debate that goes on here, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode (the one in my title) and thought some of y'all might too. I also learned some new things about RCC and as much as I hate to admit it, am even beginning to feel that they may have a point on some of their stances. It's long but (in my opinion) worth the time to listen.
Tamu_mgm
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Tragic mistake. A more apt name for the reformation is the Protestant Revolution. Protestants broke away from the RCC; they didn't reform it.

Interesting tidbit of info. though - the whole idea of reformation around this time actually came from within the RCC originally due to some ill-advised actions by popes in previous years at that time. This self-imposed and aptly named reformation within the RCC actually led to the Council of Trent and a stronger RCC thereafter.
Martin Q. Blank
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Tamu_mgm said:

Protestants were excommunicated from the RCC when they tried to reform it.
FIFY
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Protestants: No
Catholics: Yes.


/end thread.
americathegreat1492
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Neat. Can't wait to give this a listen.
BlackGoldAg2011
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Tamu_mgm said:

Tragic mistake. A more apt name for the reformation is the Protestant Revolution. Protestants broke away from the RCC; they didn't reform it.

Interesting tidbit of info. though - the whole idea of reformation around this time actually came from within the RCC originally due to some ill-advised actions by popes in previous years at that time. This self-imposed and aptly named reformation within the RCC actually led to the Council of Trent and a stronger RCC thereafter.

Both of those points are touched on in the debate
PacifistAg
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Protestants: No
Catholics: Yes.


/end thread.
This.
Tamu_mgm
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Tamu_mgm said:

Protestants were excommunicated from the RCC when they tried to reform it.
FIFY

By "trying to reform" Martin Luther tried to fundamentally change some important doctrines of the Catholic faith. Granted he still had a lot of similar beliefs and doctrines with the RCC even after leaving. However, despite efforts by the RCC to reconcile Luther back into the Church, he continued to rebel for not receiving his demands.
BlackGoldAg2011
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Tamu_mgm said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Tamu_mgm said:

Protestants were excommunicated from the RCC when they tried to reform it.
FIFY

By "trying to reform" Martin Luther tried to fundamentally change some important doctrines of the Catholic faith. Granted he still had a lot of similar beliefs and doctrines with the RCC even after leaving. However, despite efforts by the RCC to reconcile Luther back into the Church, he continued to rebel for not receiving his demands.
You present this as if he was a spoiled child not getting his way. Making no claims to whether he was right or wrong, in his view the Church was teaching heresy. In that situation there can be no true reconciliation until either the Church changes its teaching, or he is convinced that he is wrong in his belief.
Martin Q. Blank
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Tamu_mgm said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Tamu_mgm said:

Protestants were excommunicated from the RCC when they tried to reform it.
FIFY

By "trying to reform" Martin Luther tried to fundamentally change some important doctrines of the Catholic faith. Granted he still had a lot of similar beliefs and doctrines with the RCC even after leaving. However, despite efforts by the RCC to reconcile Luther back into the Church, he continued to rebel for not receiving his demands.
I didn't know selling indulgences was such an important doctrine of the Catholic faith.
Zobel
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AG
All y'all are messed up /orthodoxy
747Ag
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BlackGoldAg2011 said:

Tamu_mgm said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Tamu_mgm said:

Protestants were excommunicated from the RCC when they tried to reform it.
FIFY
By "trying to reform" Martin Luther tried to fundamentally change some important doctrines of the Catholic faith. Granted he still had a lot of similar beliefs and doctrines with the RCC even after leaving. However, despite efforts by the RCC to reconcile Luther back into the Church, he continued to rebel for not receiving his demands.
You present this as if he was a spoiled child not getting his way. Making no claims to whether he was right or wrong, in his view the Church was teaching heresy. In that situation there can be no true reconciliation until either the Church changes its teaching, or he is convinced that he is wrong in his belief.
While at A&M, I took a class (HIST/RELS 220) called the History of Christianity. Can't recall the name of our professor (no longer at A&M), but I do remember something about him being Jewish. We touched on Luther during unit 4: one lecture. Many of my classmates were excited about this unit, understandably so because finally we were touching on the Reformation (enough of all this Papist {and Orthodox} stuff). By the end of the lecture on Luther, a great many heads were hung low, because indeed, he was portrayed exactly as you say: a spoiled child not getting his way and taking his ball & going home.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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747Ag said:

BlackGoldAg2011 said:

Tamu_mgm said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Tamu_mgm said:

Protestants were excommunicated from the RCC when they tried to reform it.
FIFY
By "trying to reform" Martin Luther tried to fundamentally change some important doctrines of the Catholic faith. Granted he still had a lot of similar beliefs and doctrines with the RCC even after leaving. However, despite efforts by the RCC to reconcile Luther back into the Church, he continued to rebel for not receiving his demands.
You present this as if he was a spoiled child not getting his way. Making no claims to whether he was right or wrong, in his view the Church was teaching heresy. In that situation there can be no true reconciliation until either the Church changes its teaching, or he is convinced that he is wrong in his belief.
While at A&M, I took a class (HIST/RELS 220) called the History of Christianity. Can't recall the name of our professor (no longer at A&M), but I do remember something about him being Jewish. We touched on Luther during unit 4: one lecture. Many of my classmates were excited about this unit, understandably so because finally we were touching on the Reformation (enough of all this Papist {and Orthodox} stuff). By the end of the lecture on Luther, a great many heads were hung low, because indeed, he was portrayed exactly as you say: a spoiled child not getting his way and taking his ball & going home.

Quote:

By the end of the lecture on Luther, a great many heads were hung low, because indeed, he was portrayed exactly as you say: a spoiled child not getting his way and taking his ball & going home.

Luther was a flawed individual who is not exactly revered in (many) Protestant circles beyond the fact that he was the first reformer to essential "survive" long enough to start a movement. Previous reformers never got that far - or even attempted. I recall from my personal studies that the RCC was less about "Unity" than "conformity".
americathegreat1492
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Ok. I see this as a classic order vs. chaos debate. If the structure becomes too limiting, and refuses to be updated, then it becomes pathological (Greetings 16th century Catholicism!) The flip side is that allowing too much questioning leads to never ending fractionation on core concepts. The best structure is one that can adapt to new demands, while also retaining important past elements. Of course, the problem is that we humans have no clue how to accomplish that in any of our institutions. We're close minded. We love being right. We're a holes. We're resentful. We're vindictive. We've got to start being honest with ourselves about our motivations. If not, we might as well burn this mother down.
wargograw
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Return to truth. The five Solae are so critical.
AggieRain
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americathegreat1492 said:

Ok. I see this as a classic order vs. chaos debate. If the structure becomes too limiting, and refuses to be updated, then it becomes pathological (Greetings 16th century Catholicism!) The flip side is that allowing too much questioning leads to never ending fractionation on core concepts. The best structure is one that can adapt to new demands, while also retaining important past elements. Of course, the problem is that we humans have no clue how to accomplish that in any of our institutions. We're close minded. We love being right. We're a holes. We're resentful. We're vindictive. We've got to start being honest with ourselves about our motivations. If not, we might as well burn this mother down.
Zobel
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If it's a return, what time period are you returning to?

Can you give an example of the five solas in history?

I'll hang up and listen.
AGC
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AG
k2aggie07 said:

If it's a return, what time period are you returning to?

Can you give an example of the five solas in history?

I'll hang up and listen.


Sola feels. 2010s.
Frok
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Great website, I'll have to listen to a few of these.
BlackGoldAg2011
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AGC said:

k2aggie07 said:

If it's a return, what time period are you returning to?

Can you give an example of the five solas in history?

I'll hang up and listen.


Sola feels. 2010s.
This would make a great babylonbee article "The millennial reformation".
DirtDiver
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Catholic speaker: "The tragedy of the reformation is that it cut off people from the means of God's grace through losing the sacrement of confession" "it cuts people off from the means of salvation"

Protestant speaker: We can stand side by side in agreement over the value of human life and why abortion is wrong, however if someone walks up to us and says, "What must I do to be saved?" we would give different answers.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.
85Photon
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I respect the RCC for it's past and early history.
It has problems with being able to correct itself. It needs to be able to repent, not rigidly insist on it infallibility.
To teach that confession is the means of grace is heresy. Simply ask a catholic for the chapter and verse where they get this.
To teach that one must come to salvation through a priest is heresy.
Most of the other stuff can be overcome. And note that many catholics who understand scripture back away from these strong positions. But the RCC as a body needs to repent and correct heretical teachings.
I'm not saying protestants are perfect, and there are many denominations and local churches doing stuff that is bad. At least protestant churches have certain means of correcting heresy - 1 they can change when convicted of their guilt, and 2 people leave and they wither away and disappear.
Zobel
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Confession is -a- means of grace. Christ is the Great Physician and James 5:16 links confession and prayer with healing, healing which can only come from Christ.

People confessed their sins to John the Baptist.

John 1:9 says we should confess our sins, and He will forgive them.

In 2 Corinthians 5:18 St Paul calls his ministry that of reconciliation, a term we use for confession to this day. He says in 2 Cor 2:10 "Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I have done for your sakes, in the person of Christ." This is exactly the formula used today.

Further confession is as old as the church. There is never a recorded time when the church hasn't practiced confession. The Didache dates from the first or perhaps second century and describes confessing sins in church to keep from praying with a bad conscience.

///

Based on what you've written my suspicion is that most of what you think is a heresy is basically a misunderstanding of what the Latin church teaches. And I'm not a Roman Catholic.
Martin Cash
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Tamu_mgm said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Tamu_mgm said:

Protestants were excommunicated from the RCC when they tried to reform it.
FIFY

By "trying to reform" Martin Luther tried to fundamentally change some important doctrines of the Catholic faith. Granted he still had a lot of similar beliefs and doctrines with the RCC even after leaving. However, despite efforts by the RCC to reconcile Luther back into the Church, he continued to rebel for not receiving his demands.
I didn't know selling indulgences was such an important doctrine of the Catholic faith.
Still is.
Sodbuster05
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Matthew 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven

Zobel
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I found a previous post on this that I think sums it up well. Part of the difficulty in discussions like this is the modern Protestant tendency to argue from a position of reductionism (Christ is all I need) rather than maximalism.

Here is an excerpt of the Rite of Reconciliation that the priest says:
Quote:

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, the Shepherd, and the Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world, Who gavest remittance unto the two debtors, and didst grant remission of her sins unto the harlot: Do Thou Thyself, O Master, loose, remit and pardon the sins, transgressions and iniquities, whether voluntary or involuntary, whether known or unknown, whether by mistake or in disobedience, which Thy servants have wrought, and whatsoever they have done, as men bearing flesh and living in the world, being beguiled by the devil... Yea, O Master and Lord, O Lover of Mankind, hearken unto us who are entreating Thy grace for these Thy servants; and, as the greatly-merciful One, overlook all their transgressions, and deliver them from eternal torment. For Thou hast said, O Master: "Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." For Thou only art sinless, and unto Thee do we send up glory: to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages.

Behold, My Spiritual Child, Christ stands invisibly here receiving your confession. Do not be ashamed, neither be afraid, and hide nothing. Rather, do not be afraid to tell all that you have done, so that you may receive forgiveness from our Lord Jesus Christ. Behold, His Holy Icon is before us. I am only the witness, bearing testimony before Him of all that you shall say. But, if you conceal anything you shall have the greater sin. Take heed, therefore, that having come to the Divine Physician, you not depart unhealed.
St Basil the Great wrote "It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God's mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist (Matt. 3:6), but in Acts (19:18) they confessed to the apostles."

St John Chrysostom taught "Have you sinned? Go into Church and wipe out your sin. As often as you might fall down in the marketplace, you pick yourself up again. So too, as often as you sin, repent your sin. Do not despair. Even if you sin a second time, repent a second time. Do not by indifference lose hope entirely of the good things prepared. Even if you are in extreme old age and have sinned, go in, repent!" .... "For here there is a physician's [i.e. priest's] office, not a courtroom; not a place where punishment of sin is exacted, but where the forgiveness of sin is granted. Tell your sin to God alone: 'Before You alone have I sinned, and I have done what is evil in Your sight' (Psalm 50(51):4); and your sin will be forgiven." (Homilies on Penance 3:4)

He also wrote: "Whatever priests do here on earth, God will confirm in heaven, just as the master ratifies the decision of his servants. Did He not give them all the powers of heaven? "Whose sins you shall forgive," He says, "they are forgiven them: whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" (John 20:23). What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all the judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men. (cf. Matthew 9:8) They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven, elevated above human nature, and freed of its limitations." (The Priesthood 3:5:183-184)

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Zobel
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Plain-faced reading, no. No special place of authority different than any bishop of the church.

Practically, though -- yes. St John was an amazing orator. His posthumous title "Chrysostomos" means "Golden-mouthed". He was trained by the finest pagan school in Antioch as a youth, and his tutor Libanius said St John would have been his successor had the Christians not "taken him from us". He spent some years as a hermit and ascetic, and probably had most if not all of the old testament memorized. He then served at the altar for ten years before being made a deacon, later priest, then bishop, and was literally kidnapped by the emperor and made Patriarch of Constantinople. He died in exile for offending the emperor.

St John was an amazing preacher. He would encourage his flock to read the passages before, "Each of you take in hand that part of the Gospels which is to be read in your presence on the first day of the week. Sit down at home and read it through; consider often and carefully its content, and examine all its parts well, noting what is clear and what is confusing. From such zeal there will be no small benefit to you and to me." He loved to teach and preach and exhort. He wrote numerous books and we have some 800 homilies of his still recorded.

Even further, he edited the existing liturgy at the time. The liturgy we use on a typical Sunday is his. We call it the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom. We also use St Basil's liturgy, and rarely St James'. They are all very close in form and content because they all come from a common tradition (mainly different are a few prayers here and there).

So yes, he has a special place for many in the church. Like other authors I have read a lot of, I feel that somehow I have come to know him as a person...other big influences in my life are Robert Heinlein, St Gregory the Theologian, and St Maximos the Confessor.

Edit to say -- plus, it's really easy to quote from him because he commented so well on so many things.
ramblin_ag02
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Not to hero bash, but he was also a vehement anti-Semite who wrote a treatise specifically called "Against Jews", a zealot who used violence to enforce his authority in the Church, and was also deposed by two different councils.

Considering the flack that Martin Luther gets in these same discussions, I just thought I would point out that this Saint was far from what I would consider a good role model.
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Zobel
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Have you read Against the Jews? I have. If you're confusing his views with those of a skinhead you're wrong. His against the Jews was of a theological nature, not a racial one.

I would love for you to learn a little more about the synods that had him deposed.

He is an excellent role model to follow - you're not correct here at all.

PS St Athanasius was exiled five times. He musta been *really* bad by your reckoning, eh?
ramblin_ag02
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You mean the letter where he calls Jews dogs, says synagogues are temples of demons, and calls Jewish influence on Christians a disease? Doesn't sound like firm theological arguments to me. It sounds actually very close to what Martin Luther is so rightly criticized for saying about the Jewish people.

I've read a little on the deposing councils. People that like him say it was for political reasons. People that don't point to his zealotry to the point of violence. Point is that he was legitimately deposed twice. If you want to say the councils were wrong, then that's you're call. However, that does undermine your continual argument that the Church is the bastion of perfect Truth. After all, how far could we trust a Church that twice deposed such a wonderful Saint? Either he wasn't wonderful and deserved it, or he was wonderful and the Church erred twice.
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Zobel
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In the thread where agie95 called St John an anti-Semite I found the direct quotes. I'll pull them up, it won't take long. FYI I'll take your response as a negative to the question "Have you read them?".

Second, a local synod has nothing to do with the infallibility of the Church. Local synods - even widely attended synods - are no more or less expressive of the will of the church than a poll of all Christians. Over half of the Christian world was heretical during the time of St Maximos. He was maimed and exiled for his involvement in a council condemning the eastern half of the empire. Your "gotcha" points are not valid.
Zobel
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Here you go.

94chem
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Interesting thread, but why does everyone speak of the Reformation as if it is past tense?
ramblin_ag02
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I have actually read the Homily, that's why I brought it up. Say what you want about putting those statements "in context", but they are still awful. He is clearly prejudiced. You and he both might feel that prejudice is justified theologically, but there is no reason ever to call people a disease.

Jewish people don't even proselytize. He is literally attacking Jewish people solely because they were living in close proximity to Christians, shared a common culture, and influenced them to some small degree. He's attacking Jews, because followers in his own church wanted to hang out with them. How saintly is that?

It is nice to know one thing around here never changes. Anytime I disagree with someone I'm either called stupid or assumed to be ignorant. As I've said countless times before, it's possible for someone to look at the facts, completely understand your position, and still disagree with you
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