Actually, it was not a surprise to me.

Being a leader in V2 (can't remember the proper name for the level of leadership that Ratzinger held) he was too married to the reform and was not going to accept a near wholesale repudiation of v2 and let them in.

Many forget that Ratzinger was brought up in the same Ressourcement theology of all the Reformers - a total abandonment of Aristotlian and Thomistic philosophy.

He had New Theology skin in the game where Francis, despite being the complete synthesis of Modernism, does not.

texag_89 said:

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Again, History and Providence prove my supposition out.

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History does not validate you.... if anything it invalidates your argument.

Christ expressed time and time again in a variety of ways that you are judged for what you do, not for what your intentions were. Do you think teaching "Peace" while committing murder is any credit to the RCC?

Providence? This is the same group that always tries to usurp providence.

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Do you think teaching "Peace" while committing murder is any credit to the RCC?

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Good question. It's one thing to teach "peace", but when you, as an institution, actually engage in activities that are incompatible w/ such teachings, then can you really claim to teach "peace". Not saying this has always been the case for the RCC, but certainly we see it w/ the long history of murdering those they deem to be "heretics" such as the Anabapists.

Solo,

You are right, I completely forgot about the contributions of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Canmmer, Hobbs, Locke and Robespierre to defeating the Muslim Hoards of antiquity.

Of course it was not The Holy Roman Church - must have been the united efforts of the 33,000 ecclesial groups that Revolted in the 1500's.

Again, Christ and His Church does not Teach murder - just the opposite.

Islam, teaches and promotes - from their founder and holy writ - Convert or Die.

texag_89 said:

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Solo,

You are right, I completely forgot about the contributions of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Canmmer, Hobbs, Locke and Robespierre to defeating the Muslim Hoards of antiquity.

Of course it was not The Holy Roman Church - must have been the united efforts of the 33,000 ecclesial groups that Revolted in the 1500's.

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May as well claim that I am not firm against Nazi's because I did not take part in driving the Germans off the beaches of Normandy. Point is, that is very weak argument to make.

texag_89 said:

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Again, Christ and His Church does not Teach murder - just the opposite.

Islam, teaches and promoted - from their founder and holy writ - Convert or Die.

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I agree that Christ does not teach murder. Christ taught us nonviolence. If you are talking about the RCC when you say "Church", I would disagree based on the fact that it's clearly not always been the case. See the murderous persecutions of those they deemed "heretics" as evidence. Was it not RCC policy to, say, execute Anabaptists? Or, at the very least, done with the implied permission of the RCC hierarchy?

Retired Ag,

Can you please tell me in the light of history and Divine Providence, how Islam and their takeover of the world can be stopped outside of what has stopped them in the past??

texag_89 said:

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Retired Ag,

Can you please tell me in the light of history and Divine Providence, how Islam and their takeover of the world can be stopped outside of what has stopped them in the past??

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Can you answer my question first?

Not the topic of my thread (some call that type of obfuscation, hi-jacking a thred.

Start another thread and will be happy to discuss, but if you don't agree with my premise, history and Divine Providence, then what do you propose??

texag_89 said:

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Retired Ag,

Can you please tell me in the light of history and Divine Providence, how Islam and their takeover of the world can be stopped outside of what has stopped them in the past??

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But, I'll go ahead and answer while you address my question.

I don't think our focus should be on "stopping Islam" any more than the pre-Constantinian church's focus should have been on stopping Rome. Our job is to be a witness to His Kingdom. Our enemy isn't a flesh and blood enemy, so why use flesh and blood weapons? As I said before, you could "eradicate" all Muslims from this world, and Satan won't bat an eye. In fact, if we did eradicate them using the weapons of this world, then we've just done Satan's job for him.

I think Paul addressed it pretty well in his letter to the church at Ephesus:

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Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

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I don't believe this passage from Paul is such trite cliche that is only good for teaching in VBS. I think this is actual real, practical guidance on how to combat evil in this world. We are to testify of a better Way...testify to the Kingdom of God. In fact, I would say we should view these "threats" as an opportunity to suffer for His sake and bring further glory to Him by responding as He responded on the cross....with nonviolent, self-sacrificial love of His murderers.

You keep referring to Providence.

Yet even when the Christian world was largely unified, it was still being conquered by Muslims. Where was providence when Jerusalem fell? Antioch? Alexandria? Other centers of Christianity within the ancient world fell before Muslim armies. Where was providence?

I think this meme sums up my thoughts on your usage of "providence":

texag_89 said:

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Not the topic of my thread (some call that type of obfuscation, hi-jacking a thred.

Start another thread and will be happy to discuss, but if you don't agree with my premise, history and Divine Providence, then what do you propose??

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Considering my question was based on a comment you made on this thread, I'd hardly call it "hijacking". You made a claim, and I followed up on it. Some would call your above post "deflecting".

Fair enough and I will be glad to entertain that one at the other thread, however folks are attempting to shoot down my premise and solution, but it still stands as the one based on History and Divine Providence.

The world has been here before and to a much greater degree with Islam.

It was beaten back - the Template is in place and my premise and solution is just a copy of what was done then.

Otherwise, suggestions anyone?

texag_89 said:

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Fair enough and I will be glad to entertain that one at the other thread, however folks are attempting to shoot down my premise and solution, but it still stands as the one based on History and Divine Providence.

The world has been here before and to a much greater degree with Islam.

It was beaten back - the Template is in place and my premise and solution is just a copy of what was done then.

Otherwise, suggestions anyone?

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Suggestions? Imitating Christ. Recognizing that Islam isn't the enemy, Satan is. Be a witness to the Kingdom of God and our Savior who conquered evil with nonviolent, self-sacrificial love of enemies. How do we go about this? Paul gave a great template in his letter to the Ephesians. I find that a far better template than the murderous, anti-Christ Crusades.

Stop using the word providence, per my point above. Losing over half of your historical lands to an invader is hardly evidence of providence.

I know an evangelist who is thrilled at the prospect of migrants - he has always wanted to witness to muslims but he could not travel to many Muslim countries because of this. He says bring 'em here so he can witness to and convert them.

That man is most definitely going to be wearing at least one crown in heaven. Maybe more.

Sir, if you do not think Islam is demoniclly formed, inspired and controlled, then I will just pray for your understanding at this point.

God bless you sir

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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I know an evangelist who is thrilled at the prospect of migrants - he has always wanted to witness to muslims but he could not travel to many Muslim countries because of this. He says bring 'em here so he can witness to and convert them.

That man is most definitely going to be wearing at least one crown in heaven. Maybe more.

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Amen to that! Awesome! I would imagine that it would also be helpful in that endeavor to get them removed from the "source", and get into a more "free" setting where they could give Christ an honest look without fear of danger as they may face in their home nation.

texag_89 said:

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Sir, if you do not think Islam is demoniclly formed, inspired and controlled, then I will just pray for your understanding at this point.

God bless you sir

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The problem is the evil behind it. Heck, I'd argue the Crusades were demonically formed as well, but the Crusades weren't the real enemy, it was the evil behind them. Satan will use any tool possible to draw others from Christ. Sadly, his most effective tool, at times, has been those that profess Christ w/ their tongues but reject Him w/ their deeds (like preaching peace, but calling for war in God's name).

And sir, if you do not think that the beat back of the takeover was of Divine Providence, then I shall pray for your clarity and understanding as well.

https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/blog/our-lady-of-the-rosary-and-the-battle-of-lepanto/1220/

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then I shall pray for your clarity and understanding as well.

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Is this sanctimonious garbage really necessary? Just because we disagree with you does not mean we lack clarity and understanding.

Again, not calling for war, but for peace.

However, self defense and preservation is required when being invaded.

Now, we could discuss if we are being invaded as of yet, but would rather discuss any other solution other than the historic template of defeating Islam after centuries of Islamic invasion.

Just because I pray for you does not make it sanctimonious.

Again, any suggestion on dealing with the issue at hand?

Shut it down said:

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Do you believe in necessary circumstances for any sort of label? If a person wants to gorge bacon and call themselves a vegan, is that legitimate?

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Yeah. More or less (to the first question).

So, the label 'Muslim'; If a significant enough number of Muslims alive today say that they do not believe that murdering non-believers and raping children are central tenets of Islam, I'd say that holding the belief that murder and rape are not synonomous with Islam does not disqualify them from legitimate claim to using the Muslim label.

texag_89 said:

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Again, not calling for war, but for peace.

However, self defense and preservation is required when being invaded.

Now, we could discuss if we are being invaded as of yet, but would rather discuss any other solution other than the historic template of defeating Islam after centuries of Islamic invasion.

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You aren't calling for peace though. And where did Christ ever justify killing for self-defense or preservation? He didn't. I know most here don't agree w/ my views on pacifism, but considering Christ continually told us of the costs of following Him (including loss of life), I find it odd that you put such an emphasis on "self-preservation".

Your "historic template" is a man-made template and looks nothing like Christ crucified. I've already addressed a solution. The NT is full of guidance on waging spiritual warfare, which is what our true battle is. Muslims aren't our enemy. Rome wasn't our enemy. It has always been Satan, who as ruler of this world, has used various means to attack the Kingdom. Waging a murderous war, which is what the Crusades were and that seems to be the template you are endorsing, is doing the work of Satan.

So, I think we should listen to Christ and Paul here. I think Stephen and the Apostolic church present great examples of how to face the true enemy, even at the risk of our own lives.

But, if you're looking for a way to "defend" America or western political structures, I don't really concern myself with that.

texag_89 said:

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Just because I pray for you does not make it sanctimonious.

Again, any suggestion on dealing with the issue at hand?

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It's not that you pray for others. It's the sanctimonious tone you take in publicly declaring that you're going to pray for Solo and I because we don't agree with you.

And I've already posted a suggestion.

So, Protestant Muslims

So they get to make it up - individually - as they go?

Founder's words and their holy book is of no consequence?

So, Reformed Muslims if you will.

Pray for their conversion.

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So they get to make it up - individually - as they go?

Founder's words and their holy book is of no consequence?

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Don't Catholics reject sola scriptura and place a large emphasis on "tradition" that is not found in the Scripture?

Seems that is the way you have inferred my words, but that was not my intent

And, your solution was the status quo sans secular military action, is that correct?

I am in half agreement with you - no more Merucan Military in mideast

Not talking about Catholic identity above, he was referring to Muslim identity.

(equal Magisterium, Scripture and Apostolic Tradition)

Enjoying the discussions, however client meeting for a couple of hours. Shall return.

Our Lady of Fatima, Pray for us!

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Seems that is the way you have inferred my words, but that was not my intent

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About the "prayer"? Come on man. The tone was clear as day. I disagreed with you on the nature of the threat, and your response was to publicly declare that you'd pray for me to gain clarity and understanding. If your desire was simply to pray, then pray. Don't be like the Pharisees who make a show about prayer so others see it.

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And, your solution was the status quo sans secular military action, is that correct?

I am in half agreement with you - no more Merucan Military in mideast

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My solution is to follow the example and teachings of Christ. To listen to Paul. To look at Stephen and the early church martyrs that didn't face their deaths with violent fury, but with love towards enemy. Again, the enemy is not a flesh and blood enemy. Let's arm ourselves w/ Armor of God and fight the real enemy, and hope that our light so shines that those currently enslaved by that enemy will come to Him.