It's a dishonest charge to accuse believers of supporting or condoning genocide, because of their belief in a God who alone has the right to judge His creation......and there is really no reason to discuss from that point on....the lines are drawn
God's Command to Genocide certain Canaanite Tribes
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Last: 6 yr ago by canadiaggie
See Silent's response above....
If God exists, and is Creator, and alone has the ability to judge, then He is justified in whatever He does, even to the point of destroying everything and everybody. The day that He comes and meets face to face with one of us...as God and perfect Judge, I cannot imagine anyone denying His command, even you.
If God exists, and is Creator, and alone has the ability to judge, then He is justified in whatever He does, even to the point of destroying everything and everybody. The day that He comes and meets face to face with one of us...as God and perfect Judge, I cannot imagine anyone denying His command, even you.
Astro, that is a lie, and the same one aggrad slandered with.....I understand you reject the idea of a God who has the right to Judge his Creation, but that does not make believers who do supporters of genocide in any form or fashion....it is slander and a lie.
This is a reason it's practically impossible to have any meaningful discussion with some unbelievers...aggrad twisted the insect analogy I used to try and explain that a Sovereign God has the right to judge His creation, even unborn creation, if He knows it is evil or destined for evil, to claim that I condone killing infants....this is dishonest, and a lie.
This is a reason it's practically impossible to have any meaningful discussion with some unbelievers...aggrad twisted the insect analogy I used to try and explain that a Sovereign God has the right to judge His creation, even unborn creation, if He knows it is evil or destined for evil, to claim that I condone killing infants....this is dishonest, and a lie.
No, I dont support genocide, even conditionally, however I do believe in a God who has the right to Judge His creation by whatever means He decides, because He alone judges hearts.
I suppose there is a difference from men deciding to commit genocide on each other, having usurped the role of judge....from God destroying His creation if He deems it necessary, it is His prerogative, not man's
I suppose there is a difference from men deciding to commit genocide on each other, having usurped the role of judge....from God destroying His creation if He deems it necessary, it is His prerogative, not man's
I cannot imagine anyone denying a command from God face to face, if He were here...it is His right to judge and command, whether you or anyone "supported" it or not.....that is not the same as man usurping the right to judge, and commit genocide man on man, at least in my view.
If God of the Bible exists, apparently He judged that the earth was evil and destined for evil, and used a Flood to execute His judgment. He also judged certain Canaanite societies to be evil and only destined for evil, and executed judgment through Moses as well.....I understand how we struggle with that notion, but then, we are not the Judge or Creator and cannot read men's hearts. I dont know how Moses felt about it.....it is interesting to me that Abraham interceded for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, but he didnt contest the right of God to judge them
If God of the Bible exists, apparently He judged that the earth was evil and destined for evil, and used a Flood to execute His judgment. He also judged certain Canaanite societies to be evil and only destined for evil, and executed judgment through Moses as well.....I understand how we struggle with that notion, but then, we are not the Judge or Creator and cannot read men's hearts. I dont know how Moses felt about it.....it is interesting to me that Abraham interceded for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, but he didnt contest the right of God to judge them
fahraint said:
No, I dont support genocide, even conditionally, however I do believe in a God who has the right to Judge His creation by whatever means He decides, because He alone judges hearts.
I suppose there is a difference from men deciding to commit genocide on each other, having usurped the role of judge....from God destroying His creation if He deems it necessary, it is His prerogative, not man's
Wait... If God controls everything, how can men have usurped his role? Isn't he just using them to fulfill his prerogative to commit genocide?
God is in control, but allowed the fall....and allows sin and rebellion to a point, so yes, man does usurp the role as judge to commit evil.
Why does He allow evil to a point? This is not a new or unique question watson, you'll have to ask Him...
Why does He allow evil to a point? This is not a new or unique question watson, you'll have to ask Him...
fahraint said:
No, I dont support genocide, even conditionally, however I do believe in a God who has the right to Judge His creation by whatever means He decides, because He alone judges hearts.
I suppose there is a difference from men deciding to commit genocide on each other, having usurped the role of judge....from God destroying His creation if He deems it necessary, it is His prerogative, not man's
This circular logic is intensely frustrating. You cannot countenance genocide. Unless God wills genocide. So you can countenance genocide? No, of course not. Unless God wills it. Then he has his reasons... So you can countenance genocide? Never! Disgusting to ask that question!
fahraint said:
God is in control, but allowed the fall....and allows sin and rebellion to a point, so yes, man does usurp the role as judge to commit evil.
Why does He allow evil to a point? This is not a new or unique question watson,you'll have to ask Him...
God is in control. This God allows these things to happen as part of a grander plan. How exactly is man usurping anything in a designed creation?
I'm sorry you feel that way.....Abraham interceded for Sodom, but didnt contest God's right to judge...do you not see a difference between genocide man on man, and God's right to judge by whatever means He deems fit?
I understand that many unbelievers cannot accept a God who alone has the right to judge His creation.....but, if He exists, then He does. You are also mixing "genocide" with God's judgment.......If God judges men and destroy them all, is that genocide? I dont think so.....that's His judgment
I understand that many unbelievers cannot accept a God who alone has the right to judge His creation.....but, if He exists, then He does. You are also mixing "genocide" with God's judgment.......If God judges men and destroy them all, is that genocide? I dont think so.....that's His judgment
Man commits evil all the time, and "usurps" God's role as judge, to commit crimes against each other, to the point of genocide at times, against God's desire, and God allows it.....to the point of judgment.....
Maybe you think God, if He exists, should have done His plan differently....maybe no evil?....maybe if you were God you would have designed it all by your reasoning....
Why did God allow the fall, and the ability of man to commit evil? I cannot answer for Him...it is His right to do so as Creator....
Maybe you think God, if He exists, should have done His plan differently....maybe no evil?....maybe if you were God you would have designed it all by your reasoning....
Why did God allow the fall, and the ability of man to commit evil? I cannot answer for Him...it is His right to do so as Creator....
fahraint said:
I'm sorry you feel that way.....Abraham interceded for Sodom, but didnt contest God's right to judge...do you not see a difference between genocide man on man, and God's right to judge by whatever means He deems fit?
I understand that many unbelievers cannot accept a God who alone has the right to judge His creation.....but, if He exists, then He does. You are also mixing "genocide" with God's judgment.......If God judges men and destroy them all, is that genocide? I dont think so.....that's His judgment
No, I don't see the difference. I hold a supposedly Omni-everything deity to a higher standard than men. People are not complicit in an action or behavior merely because of the accidents of their birth. A Canaanite infant is not guilty of the crimes of the parents.
An Omniscient God would know if the Canaanite infant was hopelessly destined for evil......it is His right to judge, and His alone.
Well, I suppose we disagree on God's judgment and right to judge vs genocide....you see them the same, and I dont. And, I suppose that other unbelievers feel the same as you, since they accuse believers of supporting genocide because of an abstract belief in the right for God to judge His creation as He sees fit, when the truth is that believers absolutely reject genocide in any form
Well, I suppose we disagree on God's judgment and right to judge vs genocide....you see them the same, and I dont. And, I suppose that other unbelievers feel the same as you, since they accuse believers of supporting genocide because of an abstract belief in the right for God to judge His creation as He sees fit, when the truth is that believers absolutely reject genocide in any form
God's judgment is not genocide, in my view.....and I think the example of Abraham interceding but not contesting is a good example that helps explain the difference... we are now just rehashing old ground. I understand you cannot accept a God who alone has the right to Judge His creation.....and I do....unless you have anything new to offer, I'm off to bed!
God's judgment is His right.....He can destroy His creation, and I would not call it genocide....your definition is written from a secular point of view, meant to apply man on man genocide, without any thought given to God and His judgment
That's it for tonight for me....off to bed
That's it for tonight for me....off to bed
god is love.
fahraint said:
An Omniscient God would know if the Canaanite infant was hopelessly destined for evil......it is His right to judge, and His alone.
Well, I suppose we disagree on God's judgment and right to judge vs genocide....you see them the same, and I dont. And, I suppose that other unbelievers feel the same as you, since they accuse believers of supporting genocide because of an abstract belief in the right for God to judge His creation as He sees fit, when the truth is that believers absolutely reject genocide in any form
Here's the thing, you're denying any possibility of free will. You're saying out of every possible universe for these infants, there is not a single one in which they don't become so evil that God is justified in wiping them out with horrific violence. You're saying that their very existence as Canaanites makes them specially marked for evil and thus divine murder (sounds pretty genocide-y, but maybe that's just my unbelieving brain). In that case, why were they allowed to be born in the first place? Why would an omnibenevolent and omnipotent deity willingly allow something that is pure evil to be born in a creation that he deemed good?
Dr. Watson said:fahraint said:
An Omniscient God would know if the Canaanite infant was hopelessly destined for evil......it is His right to judge, and His alone.
Well, I suppose we disagree on God's judgment and right to judge vs genocide....you see them the same, and I dont. And, I suppose that other unbelievers feel the same as you, since they accuse believers of supporting genocide because of an abstract belief in the right for God to judge His creation as He sees fit, when the truth is that believers absolutely reject genocide in any form
Here's the thing, you're denying any possibility of free will. You're saying out of every possible universe for these infants, there is not a single one in which they don't become so evil that God is justified in wiping them out with horrific violence. You're saying that their very existence as Canaanites makes them specially marked for evil and thus divine murder (sounds pretty genocide-y, but maybe that's just my unbelieving brain). In that case, why were they allowed to be born in the first place? Why would an omnibenevolent and omnipotent deity willingly allow something that is pure evil to be born in a creation that he deemed good?
This is a textbook example of the old adage of Religion can make good people do horrific things.
Maybe the thoughtful critic could conduct some basic research instead of taking the faux-moralist high road:AstroAg17 said:
You only support genocide conditionally.
And what about those lovely Canaanites for which many profess such concern?Quote:
Similar to how merciful parents, principals, policemen, and judges can justly administer punishment to rule-breakers and evildoers, so too can the all-knowing, all-loving Creator of the Universe. Loving parents and principals have administered corporal punishment appropriately to children for years (cf. Proverbs 13:24). Merciful policemen, who are constantly saving he lives of the innocent, have the authority (both from God and the governmentRomans 13:1-4) to kill a wicked person who is murdering others. Just judges have the authority to sentence a depraved child rapist to death. Loving-kindness and corporal or capital punishment are not antithetical. Prior to conquering Canaan, God commanded the Israelites, saying,The faithful Jew was expected, as are Christians, to "not resist an evil person" (Matthew 5:39) but rather "go the extra mile" (Matthew 5:41) and "turn the other cheek" (Matthew 5:39). "Love," after all, "is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:10; cf. Matthew 22:36-40). Interestingly, however, the Israelite was commanded to punish (even kill) lawbreakers. Just five chapters after commanding the individual Israelite to "not take vengeance," but "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18), God twice said that murderers would receive the death penalty (Leviticus 24:21,17).Quote:
You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall not take vengeance nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. And if a stranger dwells with you in your land, you shall not mistreat him. The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself (Leviticus 19:17-18,33-34; cf. Romans 13:9).
Perhaps placing a baby into the superheated arms of a metal idol and celebrating as it strangled in torturous agony appeals to certain Texag posters. The scriptures indicate that the Canaanites had become sociopathic and sadistic, treasuring the pain of their victims as a sacred act, likely led and encouraged by their demonic overlords. I have no problem with removing all traces of them from the land they despoiled with their unholy violence, much like going after those who led the slaughter in the Nazi death camps, which were in some sense more humane than the Canaan tortures.Quote:
Their "cultic practice was barbarous and thoroughly licentious" (Unger, 1954, p. 175). Their "deitieshad no moral character whatever," which "must have brought out the worst traits in their devotees and entailed many of the most demoralizing practices of the time," including sensuous nudity, orgiastic nature-worship, snake worship, and even child sacrifice (Unger, p. 175; cf. Albright, 1940, p. 214). As Moses wrote, the inhabitants of Canaan would "burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods" (Deuteronomy 12:30). The Canaanite nations were anything but "innocent." In truth, "[t]hese Canaanite cults were utterly immoral, decadent, and corrupt, dangerously contaminating and thoroughly justifying the divine command to destroy their devotees" (Unger, 1988). They were so nefarious that God said they defiled the land and the land could stomach them no longer"the land vomited out its inhabitants" (Leviticus 18:25).
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=12&article=1630
You can go after the nazis all you like, and we did. But there is no justification for the genocide of the German people. The world is better because we didn't do that. We did what it took to win. That's why this defense is so weak it only applies to complicit adults. Genocide declares none innocent or deserving mercy. It's beneath the morality of man, let alone God.
To put it simply, to believe the Bible you must assert the greatest being in the universe, the wisest, most loving being, when confronted with sin could think of no better solution than to kill all the men, kill all the mothers, kill all the children, kill all the babies, and keep some of the Virgin women to be forced into 'marriage'. That's the OT MO. That's what the smartest most merciful being could think of? Please.
To put it simply, to believe the Bible you must assert the greatest being in the universe, the wisest, most loving being, when confronted with sin could think of no better solution than to kill all the men, kill all the mothers, kill all the children, kill all the babies, and keep some of the Virgin women to be forced into 'marriage'. That's the OT MO. That's what the smartest most merciful being could think of? Please.
UTExan said:Maybe the thoughtful critic could conduct some basic research instead of taking the faux-moralist high road:AstroAg17 said:
You only support genocide conditionally.And what about those lovely Canaanites for which many profess such concern?Quote:
Similar to how merciful parents, principals, policemen, and judges can justly administer punishment to rule-breakers and evildoers, so too can the all-knowing, all-loving Creator of the Universe. Loving parents and principals have administered corporal punishment appropriately to children for years (cf. Proverbs 13:24). Merciful policemen, who are constantly saving he lives of the innocent, have the authority (both from God and the governmentRomans 13:1-4) to kill a wicked person who is murdering others. Just judges have the authority to sentence a depraved child rapist to death. Loving-kindness and corporal or capital punishment are not antithetical. Prior to conquering Canaan, God commanded the Israelites, saying,The faithful Jew was expected, as are Christians, to "not resist an evil person" (Matthew 5:39) but rather "go the extra mile" (Matthew 5:41) and "turn the other cheek" (Matthew 5:39). "Love," after all, "is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:10; cf. Matthew 22:36-40). Interestingly, however, the Israelite was commanded to punish (even kill) lawbreakers. Just five chapters after commanding the individual Israelite to "not take vengeance," but "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18), God twice said that murderers would receive the death penalty (Leviticus 24:21,17).Quote:
You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall not take vengeance nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. And if a stranger dwells with you in your land, you shall not mistreat him. The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself (Leviticus 19:17-18,33-34; cf. Romans 13:9).Perhaps placing a baby into the superheated arms of a metal idol and celebrating as it strangled in torturous agony appeals to certain Texag posters. The scriptures indicate that the Canaanites had become sociopathic and sadistic, treasuring the pain of their victims as a sacred act, likely led and encouraged by their demonic overlords. I have no problem with removing all traces of them from the land they despoiled with their unholy violence, much like going after those who led the slaughter in the Nazi death camps, which were in some sense more humane than the Canaan tortures.Quote:
Their "cultic practice was barbarous and thoroughly licentious" (Unger, 1954, p. 175). Their "deitieshad no moral character whatever," which "must have brought out the worst traits in their devotees and entailed many of the most demoralizing practices of the time," including sensuous nudity, orgiastic nature-worship, snake worship, and even child sacrifice (Unger, p. 175; cf. Albright, 1940, p. 214). As Moses wrote, the inhabitants of Canaan would "burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods" (Deuteronomy 12:30). The Canaanite nations were anything but "innocent." In truth, "[t]hese Canaanite cults were utterly immoral, decadent, and corrupt, dangerously contaminating and thoroughly justifying the divine command to destroy their devotees" (Unger, 1988). They were so nefarious that God said they defiled the land and the land could stomach them no longer"the land vomited out its inhabitants" (Leviticus 18:25).
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=12&article=1630
First of all, it might make your case stronger if you used real scholars of the ancient Middle East rather than religious people trying to justify a specific position.
No one doubts the Canaanite gods were brutal. Everyone's gods in the Bronze Age were short-tempered, demanding, unyielding, and brutal. And the same goes for the God of the Hebrews presented in the OT. In fact, the only logic there seems to be for singling out The Canaanites is that they held primo real estate. Otherwise, why did the Assyrians (who flayed their enemies alive), the Druids, some of the Greeks, and a host of other cultures avoid getting divinely "not-genocided" when they supposedly practiced human sacrifice, cannibalism, orgies, etc? Furthermore, the children the Canaanites were supposedly sacrificing were Canaanite children. And to save them, God has the Israelites go in and.... murder all the Canaanite children...
It's already been mentioned, but I'll say it again, not every individual is completely complicit in the evil actions of a group. We didn't hang every German citizen. We hanged the leading Nazis. We didn't even kill every concentration camp guard, though they probably deserved it. How is it that humans have more compassion than your deity?
fahraint said:
I'm sorry you feel that way.....Abraham interceded for Sodom, but didnt contest God's right to judge...do you not see a difference between genocide man on man, and God's right to judge by whatever means He deems fit?
I understand that many unbelievers cannot accept a God who alone has the right to judge His creation.....but, if He exists, then He does. You are also mixing "genocide" with God's judgment.......If God judges men and destroy them all, is that genocide? I dont think so.....that's His judgment
Obviously, you lose a lot of the non-believers here with these types of posts. . . .
From my perspective: Lets say God exists and does have the right to judge his creation. Does this mean I have to think Him a good judge? Does God ask that I abandon all individual beliefs that do not conform to his own on the presupposition that any part of my individuality not conforming to Him is inherently wrong?
You presuppose that every action by God is inherently absolutely good. As such, you disallow yourself from ever questioning or even thinking critically about any of God's actions. If God is infallible and all of God's actions are to be completely accepted as 'absolutely good' above any of your own individual thoughts, beliefs, or concerns, then your individual thoughts, beliefs, and concerns have zero value to you or to God.
Or maybe the only value your individual thoughts, beliefs, or concerns may have lies within your ability to disregard them in compliance with God's will. I suspect that there is an element of this suggestion that you don't totally reject, albeit, you would probably phrase it differently than I have.
Is it so hard to imagine a world view that rejects this version of God? A God that would command men to murder babies and then accept it as 'good' based solely on the argument that anything commanded by God is automatically good?
What do you mean by "believe the Bible"? It seems like there are numerous methods of interpretation from Christian tradition that don't force Christians to assert this.Quote:
To put it simply, to believe the Bible you must assert the greatest being in the universe, the wisest, most loving being, when confronted with sin could think of no better solution than to kill all the men, kill all the mothers, kill all the children, kill all the babies, and keep some of the Virgin women to be forced into 'marriage'
To me, what's presented in Scripture here towards the Canaanites is nothing less than a grotesque, detestable genocide and that the Christian/Jewish defense of it is awful.
That's fair. Perhaps I should say to believe a version of the Bible presented and defended in this thread. Where God ordained the genocide. Some have even implied the Canaanites were nephalim or at least in part. Meaning they consider them some sort of magical demon race.
Quote:
What do you mean by "believe the Bible"? It seems like there are numerous methods of interpretation from Christian tradition that don't force Christians to assert this.
To me, what's presented in Scripture here towards the Canaanites is nothing less than a grotesque, detestable genocide and that the Christian/Jewish defense of it is awful.
This is an extremely difficult part of the Bible for me and most people I know. After all, God is sovereign, and if He wants to wipe out an entire people that's His perogative. He could use a famine, a flood, a plague or any number of natural or supernatural causes to make this happen. We would still all think it was terrible, but it wouldn't be an issue of morality. At times He also used pagan nations to accomplish similar things, but those nations did so in ignorance and purely out of their own base desires. God used their wickeness as a tool.
The Israelite/Canaanite example is different. God is using a nation of holy people to do this with full knowledge of why they are doing it. He is not using their base desire; he is commanding them as an act of holiness to enact His judgement through genocide. They have full knowledge of what they are doing, and that God specifically wants them to do this. The same occurs later with King Saul.
It's impossible to fathom given everything we know about God. After all, God wouldn't let David build His Temple, because David was a man of war with blood-stained hands. The temple stones had to be cut in the quarry and not at the temple site. Some speculate that this is because the sounds of metal on stone would sound like war, and God wanted His Temple to be a place of peace. That's still all OT without getting into the character and person of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
At some point, I just say that God is too complicated for me to understand, and I'll never be able to understand why He commanded such things.
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Obviously I find the "God commanded genocide, but it's fine because God can do that" defense to be horribly flawed. It ignores the very key fact that Christ is the exact representation of the very nature of God, and that if we've seen Christ, we've seen the Father. What Christ looks like, especially Christ crucified, is what God looks like. He isn't just one of many revelations of God, He is the ultimate authoritative revelation above all others that came before.
I'm still reading through Crucifixion of the Warrior God, but here is a sermon that Greg Boyd recently did that addresses Korah's rebellion against Moses, and how a verse from 1 Cor 10 points to not God, but the "destroyer" (i.e. satan/demons) as being the source of the death consequence in the incident in Numbers. I absolutely do not believe that God commanded genocide because that looks absolutely nothing like Christ. This sermon addresses how Boyd reconciles it which is what, I'm assuming, I'm getting to in his book.
http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon-series
I'm still reading through Crucifixion of the Warrior God, but here is a sermon that Greg Boyd recently did that addresses Korah's rebellion against Moses, and how a verse from 1 Cor 10 points to not God, but the "destroyer" (i.e. satan/demons) as being the source of the death consequence in the incident in Numbers. I absolutely do not believe that God commanded genocide because that looks absolutely nothing like Christ. This sermon addresses how Boyd reconciles it which is what, I'm assuming, I'm getting to in his book.
http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon-series
I think it just makes more sense to assume that the people who wrote it were justifying genocide by claiming that God commanded it, but God wasn't. We use God to justify terrible things all the time. Why should the ancient Israelites be any different?
If our interpretive strategy makes God out to be a genocidal monster, then our strategy needs to change. It makes little sense to me to hold on to a view that makes God out to be a monster and then say that we just can't explain it. The explanation is simple: your hermeneutic is flawed. Maybe a more "liberal" hermeneutic creates other problems, but it does avoid the whole "God commands the murder of babies" one.
If our interpretive strategy makes God out to be a genocidal monster, then our strategy needs to change. It makes little sense to me to hold on to a view that makes God out to be a monster and then say that we just can't explain it. The explanation is simple: your hermeneutic is flawed. Maybe a more "liberal" hermeneutic creates other problems, but it does avoid the whole "God commands the murder of babies" one.
http://www.theology.edu/canaan.htmDr. Watson said:UTExan said:Maybe the thoughtful critic could conduct some basic research instead of taking the faux-moralist high road:AstroAg17 said:
You only support genocide conditionally.And what about those lovely Canaanites for which many profess such concern?Quote:
Similar to how merciful parents, principals, policemen, and judges can justly administer punishment to rule-breakers and evildoers, so too can the all-knowing, all-loving Creator of the Universe. Loving parents and principals have administered corporal punishment appropriately to children for years (cf. Proverbs 13:24). Merciful policemen, who are constantly saving he lives of the innocent, have the authority (both from God and the governmentRomans 13:1-4) to kill a wicked person who is murdering others. Just judges have the authority to sentence a depraved child rapist to death. Loving-kindness and corporal or capital punishment are not antithetical. Prior to conquering Canaan, God commanded the Israelites, saying,The faithful Jew was expected, as are Christians, to "not resist an evil person" (Matthew 5:39) but rather "go the extra mile" (Matthew 5:41) and "turn the other cheek" (Matthew 5:39). "Love," after all, "is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:10; cf. Matthew 22:36-40). Interestingly, however, the Israelite was commanded to punish (even kill) lawbreakers. Just five chapters after commanding the individual Israelite to "not take vengeance," but "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18), God twice said that murderers would receive the death penalty (Leviticus 24:21,17).Quote:
You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall not take vengeance nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. And if a stranger dwells with you in your land, you shall not mistreat him. The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself (Leviticus 19:17-18,33-34; cf. Romans 13:9).Perhaps placing a baby into the superheated arms of a metal idol and celebrating as it strangled in torturous agony appeals to certain Texag posters. The scriptures indicate that the Canaanites had become sociopathic and sadistic, treasuring the pain of their victims as a sacred act, likely led and encouraged by their demonic overlords. I have no problem with removing all traces of them from the land they despoiled with their unholy violence, much like going after those who led the slaughter in the Nazi death camps, which were in some sense more humane than the Canaan tortures.Quote:
Their "cultic practice was barbarous and thoroughly licentious" (Unger, 1954, p. 175). Their "deitieshad no moral character whatever," which "must have brought out the worst traits in their devotees and entailed many of the most demoralizing practices of the time," including sensuous nudity, orgiastic nature-worship, snake worship, and even child sacrifice (Unger, p. 175; cf. Albright, 1940, p. 214). As Moses wrote, the inhabitants of Canaan would "burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods" (Deuteronomy 12:30). The Canaanite nations were anything but "innocent." In truth, "[t]hese Canaanite cults were utterly immoral, decadent, and corrupt, dangerously contaminating and thoroughly justifying the divine command to destroy their devotees" (Unger, 1988). They were so nefarious that God said they defiled the land and the land could stomach them no longer"the land vomited out its inhabitants" (Leviticus 18:25).
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=12&article=1630
First of all, it might make your case stronger if you used real scholars of the ancient Middle East rather than religious people trying to justify a specific position.
No one doubts the Canaanite gods were brutal. Everyone's gods in the Bronze Age were short-tempered, demanding, unyielding, and brutal. And the same goes for the God of the Hebrews presented in the OT. In fact, the only logic there seems to be for singling out The Canaanites is that they held primo real estate. Otherwise, why did the Assyrians (who flayed their enemies alive), the Druids, some of the Greeks, and a host of other cultures avoid getting divinely "not-genocided" when they supposedly practiced human sacrifice, cannibalism, orgies, etc? Furthermore, the children the Canaanites were supposedly sacrificing were Canaanite children. And to save them, God has the Israelites go in and.... murder all the Canaanite children...
It's already been mentioned, but I'll say it again, not every individual is completely complicit in the evil actions of a group. We didn't hang every German citizen. We hanged the leading Nazis. We didn't even kill every concentration camp guard, though they probably deserved it. How is it that humans have more compassion than your deity?
Most of what we do know (extra-biblically) about Canaanite deities is from Ugaritic texts. Note that except for Canaanites, Israel was allowed to make peace with other groups.
Exactly. I strongly believe that the first question that should be asked is "does it look like Christ crucified?" If the answer is no, then dig deeper. I think you'd like Crucifixion of the Warrior God which is a detailed look at the violent passages of the OT and how they testify to Christ. I know many are turned off by Greg Boyd's open theism, but this book does not really touch on that, at least so far. It's all about developing and using a cruciform hermeneutic.craigernaught said:
I think it just makes more sense to assume that the people who wrote it were justifying genocide by claiming that God commanded it, but God wasn't. We use God to justify terrible things all the time. Why should the ancient Israelites be any different?
If our interpretive strategy makes God out to be a genocidal monster, then our strategy needs to change. It makes little sense to me to hold on to a view that makes God out to be a monster and then say that we just can't explain it. The explanation is simple: your hermeneutic is flawed. Maybe a more "liberal" hermeneutic creates other problems, but it does avoid the whole "God commands the murder of babies" one.
TBH, I have been smiling nonstop since reading it. I'm about 250 pages in and those 250 pages have been focused on laying the foundation of the belief that Christ is the hermeneutic key to all Scripture and that the cross is the hermeneutic key to Christ. So, it's been basically 250 pages so far of reading about how amazing Christ is and why our entire faith centers on Him on the cross. Can't help but get pumped reading about Jesus.
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