As a gentile, I follow what the apostle Paul taught us gentiles of the faith, to explain what a gentile like me needs to do after justification...and all I have is his letters......and as far as I can tell, he is far more interested in our hearts than if we Colossians, Corinthians, Phillipians, Thessalonians, Galatians, Ephesians, Romans, are eating bacon or octopus.....if it was that important, why is it not emphasized to gentiles, from the self acclaimed apostle to the gentiles?

VetSurg said:

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I don't know what you're looking at. The second entry in Thayer's Greek Lexicon is "of the rules or requirements of the Law of Moses".

Christ did not come to abolish, but to fulfill the Old Law, which he did.

Once the Law was fulfilled, in Christ, it was abolished, which promoted Paul to say, in Galatians 5:3-6;

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

"Circumcised" references Judaism and "law" represents the Mosaic Law. It's not at all difficult to understand, but may be difficult for some to accept.

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You see what you want to see. You find something that you think fits your perspective and you quit reading.


Just in case the image does not work here is a link

Notice in the highlighted portion that #3 is what Thayers says how dogma is used in Ephesians 2:15 & Colossians 2:14. Notice there is 0, count that 0, references to use of dogma in the Bible that means the commandments. That is item #2 that you are referring to in your post.


Once fulfilled, it was abolished? So what the Messiah said means nothing. Paul is your god, b/c the Messiah said He did not come to abolish the Torah.

I ask again, do you believe what the Messiah said or Paul. Or maybe you misunderstand what Paul is saying since his words are seen as contradicting what the Messiah actually said.

Did the Messiah fulfill all of the Torah? Would this include the fall festivals? Since He "fulfilled" the spring festivals, don't you think He is going to fulfill the fall festivals?



Regarding your Galatians verse, notice Paul is speaking about salvation. The whole book of Galatians is about one thing, salvation is by faith, not by works. This is been the path to salvation since the beginning. No one is questioning this. If you are seeking to be justified (receive salvation) by circumcision or any other works you are not going to receive God's grace. For, you have become a debtor to the whole law.

Circumcision does not necessarily mean Judaism. Quite anti-semitic. Here Paul is speaking about actual circumcision. For there were some declaring that one must be circumcised to be saved. Acts 15 stems from Galatians. Here is the first verse of Acts 15:

Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Therefore, Paul was countering their claim. Paul wasn't against circumcision. Paul was against circumcision being used as a tool to receive salvation.

VetSurg said:

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Forgot to address your Revelation 1:5 confusion.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

I don't know why you struggle with this. Yes, we (Christians) have been washed free of our sins by the blood of Christ. We are under the Perfect Law of Liberty, not the Mosaic Law, because....

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

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What is the perfect Law of Liberty? Can you outlay it for me?

Gentile = Pagan If you want to stay a pagan, then go ahead.

Paul was not outlining the Christian faith in his epistles. Paul was addressing specific issues at specific congregations or group of congregations. Paul never once spoke against the Torah. He said faith does not void the Torah, instead those with faith must uphold the Torah (Romans 3:31)!

Sorry, busy, but the perfect law of liberty is the Law of Christ, which replaced the Mosaic Law. Surprised you're not familiar with it.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

I also think the apostle Peter's words concerning the apostle Paul's words might be particularly helpful for you to consider;
II Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Note "the wisdom given to him". Because that wisdom was given by God, we must reconcile the words of Christ and the words of Paul. What I have shown you does that. What you maintain, as you've admitted, does not.

I will again quote the apostle PaulGalatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Paul goes on to say;
Galatians 4:22-30 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Note; two covenants, one from Sinai (Old Law, Mosaic Law) is bondage,
"We" unlike them are children of promise (Anrahamic promise)
Cast out the bondwoman and her son (Old Law) who shall not be heir
"We" are not children of the bondwoman (Old Law) but of the free (Law of Christ)

He then continues;
Galatians 5:1-4 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Circumcision is a synecdoche for the Old Law, and he calls it "a yoke of bondage that profits nothing". He goes on to use "he that is circumcised" as a synecdoche for Judaizers who were trying to hold onto parts of the Old Law and says if you hold to any of it,, you are obligated to all of it....which, again, flies in the face of what you say about parts of it remaining in effect. It has been abolished, nailed to the cross. Jesus took down the "middle wall of partition" that separated Jews and Gentiles so that we are all one in Christ (I won't repost the verses pertaining to these things, as I already have)/

Also notice in Galatians 4 the contrast between "Jerusalem in Arabia" versus the "Jerusalem which is above", spiritual Jerusalem, which is the church.

agie95 said:

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VetSurg said:

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I don't know what you're looking at. The second entry in Thayer's Greek Lexicon is "of the rules or requirements of the Law of Moses".

Christ did not come to abolish, but to fulfill the Old Law, which he did.

Once the Law was fulfilled, in Christ, it was abolished, which promoted Paul to say, in Galatians 5:3-6;

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

"Circumcised" references Judaism and "law" represents the Mosaic Law. It's not at all difficult to understand, but may be difficult for some to accept.

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Circumcision does not necessarily mean Judaism. Quite anti-semitic. Here Paul is speaking about actual circumcision. For there were some declaring that one must be circumcised to be saved. Acts 15 stems from Galatians. Here is the first verse of Acts 15:

Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Therefore, Paul was countering their claim. Paul wasn't against circumcision. Paul was against circumcision being used as a tool to receive salvation.

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"Circumscision" in the New Testament is often used as a synecdoche for Jews or Judaizers. What was going on in Acts 15 was there were Judaizers who were trying to bind circumcision on Gentile Christians. They were trying to hold onto parts of the Old Law. Paul wasn't against the physical act of circumcision, but he fought against Judaizers who tried to cling to the Old Law.

In fact, Paul rebuked Peter for cowtowing to Judaizers;

Galatians 2:11-20 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

"Not justified by the Law".... "by the works of the law, shall no flesh be justified"....."I through the Law am dead to the law"

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"Not justified by the Law".... "by the works of the law, shall no flesh be justified"....."I through the Law am dead to the law"

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Are you asserting that these statements mean Paul was telling people not the follow the Law?

I have provided you example after example after example of passages that clearly teach that the Old Law is no longer in effect. Christians are amenable only to the Law of Christ, the Perfect Law of Liberty. If you refuse to understand and heed the clear teachings of the New Testamenr as well as Old Testament prophecies about Christ, the new covenant, the church, etc. (Daniel 2, Isaiah 2, Jeremiah 31, etc., etc.) then I will assume you are of those we read about in Job 21:14;

Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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"Not justified by the Law".... "by the works of the law, shall no flesh be justified"....."I through the Law am dead to the law"

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Are you asserting that these statements mean Paul was telling people not the follow the Law?

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Yes, not to follow the Old Law, which was done away with. Christians are amenable to the Law of Christ, not the Mosaic Law.

He was clear in saying, "I through the Law (which taught of the coming of Christ and the New Covenant) am dead to the Law (no longer under it).

He echoed this in Galatians 3:24-25;
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So what is the Law of Christ?

The Gospel, the New Testament, the Perfect Law of Liberty. The Old Law had a physical tabernacle/temple, Levitical priesthood, physical circumcision, the offering of animal sacrifices every year for atonement, physical Israel/Jerusalem as God's people whereas the new covenant has a "temple made without hands", a perfect High Priest, spiritual circumcision, "the perfect sacrifice offered once for all" for forgiveness of sins, spiritual Israel/Jerusalem (the church) as God's people.

Hebrews 9:1-15 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 10:23 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised).

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The Gospel, the New Testament, the Perfect Law of Liberty. The Old Law had a physical tabernacle/temple, Levitical priesthood, physical circumcision, the offering of animal sacrifices every year for atonement, physical Israel/Jerusalem as God's people whereas the new covenant has a "temple made without hands", a perfect High Priest, spiritual circumcision, "the perfect sacrifice offered once for all" for forgiveness of sins, spiritual Israel/Jerusalem (the church) as God's people.

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That's a non-answer. That's like me asking "What is the US Constitution?" and you answer "It's the preamble, articles and amendments forming the foundation of the system of law for the greatest country in the world!". It answers the question, but it doesn't really say anything.

What is the Law of Christ specifically? Laws tend to be specific and stated.

See Matthew 1:1-Revelation 22:21.

I'm done with this. As Christ said;

Matthew 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

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See Matthew 1:1-Revelation 22:21.

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So when Christ and his Apostles wandered the Earth, when people asked "How shall we live?" they gave them a New Testament?

I'm not trying to run you off the thread. You specifically stated that the Law of Christ replaced the Law of Moses. I know what the Law of Moses is. It is defined from the end of Exodus through Deuteronomy, and it is referenced as such countless times in it's own text and after.

It is perfectly legitimate to ask about the Law of Christ, especially since it is almost completely undefined in the New Testament. It certainly isn't referenced in Scripture or any early Christian commentary that I know of as the specific books you mention. So why do you say the New Testament is the Law of Christ? How did you come to that conclusion, and do you have any Scriptural or other support for it?

It's like God gave Israel to Torah and "Jesus" gave Christians the Law of Liberty. Come on Ramblin_ag02, don't you get it? God and "Jesus" may be one in the same, but they are different ways for you to live your life. Their wills are different for mankind.

Final answer, to demonstrate you know not of what you speak;

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

And based on II Thessalonians 1:7-8, if you truly don't know what the Gospel of Christ is, you better get it figured out;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I hope you want to know and will study to understand. If you have a true desire to study, you can pm me. Regardless,

Romans 14:11-12 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

King David said:

And I will walk at liberty,
For I seek Your precepts. Psalm 119:45

King David is at liberty following Torah? Say what?

Analogy:

When I think of Liberty it reminds me of America. Liberty, freedom, these are hallmarks of America, and in this land, we're fortunate enough to have a law that makes us free citizens.

Due to this I can speed when ever I want, damage other people's property, hurt anyone I so choose, etc. All because I am free! Free to do whatever I want. Man, ain't America great?

Something seems amiss here.

God gave His instructions for us to follow so we would have freedom. If you turn towards Him, continue to sin, then the Messiah was all for not. You have been enslaved all over again by sin. Sin is a very big deal. If you stop following the Torah, you continue to willfully sin. That is not good.

The Messiah did not die so you could continue to sin.

And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' Matt 7:23

You who annul the commandments practice lawlessness and are least in the kingdom of God.

The "liberty" is liberty from sin, something the Old Law could not offer (remember Hebrews 10:4?). It is that liberty from sin that Christ spoke of;

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

He was speaking to Jews that believed in him. What would they be free from (at liberty from)? Sin.

Romans 6:14-18 summerizes our whole discussion;

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law (OLD LAW) but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

And before you ask, "that form of doctrine" is the teachings of Christ and His apostle's doctrine.

Acts 2:41-47 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

And before you say, "Wait, is it the Law of Christ or of the apostles?"

John 14:25-2625 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You've equated the Law of Christ with the Doctrine of the Apostles, but you still haven't stated any law or doctrine.

I'll give you my perspective as an example, and it relates back to my first few posts on this page. The way I see it, the Law of Christ is the Torah. The Torah has been around since the beginning, and is also known as wisdom, freedom, and John 1 equates the "pre-incarnate" Christ with this in Proverbs 8. The Mosaic Law is an extensive and comprehensive application of the Torah/Law of Christ for the time period and situation in which it was given. Many parts of that application are no longer relevant, but the spiritual source materal (the Torah) is eternal and always applicable. So we tithe money instead of crops, and we pray instead of sacrifice. The application has changed, but the Torah has not.

No, Christ's Law is better than the Old Law;

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that ofAbel.

The Law of Christ is a higher form of righteousness than the Old Law. In Matthew 5, he contrasted the Old Law with this higher form of righteousness, in fact, he used the conduct of scribes and Pharisees to make his point;

Matthew 5:20-48
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Surely the New Covenant is better than the Old, but the Old Law and the Old Covenant aren't exactly the same thing. The Old Covenant is pretty well outlined in Deut 30 as the consequences of following or not following the Old Law.

Just because we are not under the Old Covenant doesn't make the Law, New or Old, useless. Changing the consequences doesn't change right and wrong. The penalty for murder could be changed from a death sentence to a $15 dollar fine, but being able to get away with it doesn't make it any more right than it was before. Jesus freed us from the curses associated with the disobedience of the law, and the ultimate curse of sin which is death. That doesn't make disobedience or sin any better than it ever was.

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The Law of Christ is a higher form of righteousness than the Old Law.

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Apparently I'm an awful communicator, but I could swear I've said this several times on this very thread.

No, you communicate fine. It's understanding where you seem to struggle.

If only all disagreements in the world were really just misunderstandings. Unfortunately it is possible for people to completely understand one another and still disagree.

That was in jest. Unfortunately, the internet makes no allowances for tone.

For fear of muddying the waters, what's the goal of following the Law for you ramblin? The promises / downsides of Deut 30?

May I ask about you two guys' beliefs? Are you Jewish in faith? Are you some sort of Christians that try to reconcile and/or mix the Old and New Testament?

I'm genuinely interested. I've met Jews, who reject the deity of Christ and the New Testament. Most Christians (I thought) understood the Old (Mosaic) Law and Law of Christ as different dispensations, with the Christian dispensation being superior to the patriarchal and Mosaic dispensations and the one we (Christians) are under.

Y'all seem to believe in a duality of the two, with both remaining binding on "God's people" (would you call them Christians?) today.

/Again, you cannot hear my tone, but I assure you I am sincere about n my interest and confusion about your beliefs/

K2,

I have a very strong desire to honor God by being the best person I can be. That includes a desire to do the right thing. It can be very difficult to know what the right thing to do is in many situations. The Torah is the most detailed instructions for righteousness in daily living ever given to man by God. Knowing the commandments and guessing at the underlying principles makes knowing the right course of action in any situation a lot easier.

I want no part of Deut 30 for myself, as I have the covenant in John 3:16. Though to be fair, honesty, integrity, fairness, compassion, work ethic, and wisdom are all Torah principles. Those things make material success a lot more likely, but that's a fringe benefit at best.

Vet,

I imagine you'll get very different answers from me and agie95. I consider myself a Two Testament Christian. I try to see the Old Testament in context of the New, and the New Testament in context of the Old. I not only want to love God, love my neighbor and spread the Gospel, but I also want to set myself apart from the world in the way He instructed Israel to show God I belong to Him and not the world.

That's the best I can explain it.

As far as Torah observant believers go, agie95 and I are probably the exact opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm Christian, and from the perspective of most Jews I don't follow Torah at all. He's an Orthodox-style Jewish believer, but since he's non-trinitarian some say he's not Christian at all.