Was the written Mosaic Law meant to be eternal?

3,215 Views | 87 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by agie95
Zobel
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AG
I think that's a good answer.

I just wonder at the applicability. I mean, Christ said simply "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

I think it's interesting that He said the the second commandment is "like" it. So to love the neighbor is like loving God. The word like is homoia, similar to the same. The two are the same, like two sides of the same coin.

But we also know that you can keep the whole Law completely faithfully and fail at keeping either/both of those commandments.

I suppose at the end of the day looking to the words of God through His prophets seems diminished when compared to keeping His words from His mouth...and adhering to Him or trusting Him when He said that eternal life was simply to know Him, Jesus Christ. We want to have union with Him, and know Him. From there our wisdom and righteousness should flow, I think.

Do you feel like you are joined to Him by following Torah? I mean, does tzit tzit help this?

It's not snark, I'm asking sincerely. We all are trying to be in Him to bear fruit. I just feel like we have a better way, a way told us by Him (repentance, confession, baptism, and communion).
fahraint
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The Hebrew word is Goy....what does that mean? Gentile or pagan, it's fine with me....I was a pagan, and am a gentile...but, I am not a pagan now, but am still a gentile, so what's your point?

Paul is the apostle to the gentiles, or pagans if you wish.....he is the one responsible to explain to us gentiles, or pagans, what to do now that we pagans are justified. I repeat...if it were so important for gentiles or pagans, pig herders and octopus farmers to cease and desist, why is it not emphasized in his letters? He is clearly more concerned with the heart, than if the Corinthians were sneaking some calamari on the side....
ramblin_ag02
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AG
I do all the last 4 things you mentioned, and I try my best to follow the first two above all.

Some people do fine working off nothing but the forest, but in my life sometimes I need the trees.

To answer your example, the tzitzit set me apart. I can't hide my faith from people, and I can't blend in and be anonymous. My faith is right there on display. I've gotten used to it, but it really puts you in a spotlight. People either don't know what they are and ask, or they know and are watching you all the time to see if you act the way you dress. For me it's also a lot of pressure. I might be the only example that people in my small town have. So maybe when a Messianic, Torah-following Christian, or Orthodox Jew comes to my tiny town the people there will see their tzitzit, remember me and the way and tried to live, and give them the benefit of the doubt and not be jerks.

It's also reassuring to me to think that if God's angels really do wander the world, then all they have to do is look at my clothes to know I'm one of His people.
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Zobel
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AG
I mean.. but we have scripture for that. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me" "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

ramblin_ag02
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AG
Come on, man. I know you follow a strict diet during Lent, observe fasting days year round, observe saints' days and do many other individual activities beyond those basics. Those things help you relate to your faith on a more visceral and concrete level. Same with me.
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VetSurg
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AG
Thanks for the explanation.. I can honestly say I have never heard of a Two Testament Christian.
fahraint
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agie, I don't criticize anyone, gentile or Jew, who feels duty bound to follow the 613 to the best of their ability....at all. However, the apostle to the pagans or gentiles, Paul, did not warn the pagans to refrain from eating shrimp, pork, octopus, catfish, as he warned against other things....so, though I don't criticize you or other messianics from doing what you feel led to do, I resist you telling others they are in error because they don't think like you, in the absence of clear teaching from the apostle to the gentiles...

peace bro
Zobel
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AG
I'm not trying to be argumentative but I don't do those things to relate and I really don't do them so people will know I'm a Christian. Particularly fasting, I try to play that close to my vest.

I do those things because I think they're good for my soul. I think spiritual struggle is mandated by Christ and the scriptures to help us wean ourselves off of the lusts of the flesh. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling and all that. I'd be happier if no one knew of those things in my life. That would at least protect me from pride.
agie95
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AG
Quote:



But we also know that you can keep the whole Law completely faithfully and fail at keeping either/both of those commandments.

k2aggie07, how can you say this? To love God and your neighbor are both in the Torah (Deut 6:4-6 and Lev 19:18). So if you keep the whole Torah faithfully, then you keep these two points. In fact, I have tried to show over the many threads that following the commandments is love. 2 John 1:6 says it. Love is this, following the commandments. Yeshua says this as well in John 14:15, 21 - if you love me you will obey my commandments.

Love is fulfillment of the commandments. The commandments show love either to God and/or our neighbor. Each and every single one is love. That is how God told us to love Him.

In Mark 12:29 when Yeshua was asked what is the greatest commandment, Yeshua gives the Shema, the greatest declaration in all of the Bible. It is a quote from Deut 6:4. Shema Yisrael, Adonia Eloheinu, Adonia echad!. Shema just doesn't mean hear, but hear and obey. Hear and obey Israel. The Lord is your God, the Lord is one! Then He continues to quote Deut with love your Lord.....how can God command to love unless love is not a feeling, but action. It is action. God tells us that following His commandments, with all that we are, is loving Him. It is loving our neighbor. So when people remove the Torah from their lives, they are removing how God said to love Him and your neighbor.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Quote:

I'm not trying to be argumentative but I don't do those things to relate and I really don't do them so people will know I'm a Christian. Particularly fasting, I try to play that close to my vest.

I do those things because I think they're good for my soul. I think spiritual struggle is mandated by Christ and the scriptures to help us wean ourselves off of the lusts of the flesh. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling and all that. I'd be happier if no one knew of those things in my life. That would at least protect me from pride.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to speak publicly of private matters. Trust me, wearing tzitzit runs entirely contrary to my personality. I'd much rather blend in and not be noticed. I was really self-conscious wearing them for years, because I felt like an imposter. I'm not nor have ever been holy or perfect. It's taken a long time to get used to them.

My tendency is also to be quiet and shy, and I have a lot of trouble initiating discussions about the Gospel. The tzitzit force me out of my comfort zone, and they are a great tool to evangelize when people ask me about them. To me they are one of the ways God gives me a firm push to do His Will when I would otherwise not.

But that's not why I wear them. I wear them, because it was commanded in the Law so that when I see them I will remember to keep the commandments of God. They are a constant daily physical reminder of the life I strive to live.
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Zobel
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AG
My wording was not precise -- obviously as stated it is tautological. If those two commandments are part of the Law keeping the Law requires keeping those.

The meaning here is that if one performs all of the outward actions of the Law, one can still not keep the Law. I think Christ's sermons make this abundantly clear.

The corollary to this statement is far more interesting. Performing none of the outward actions of the Law, can one keep the spirit or intent of the Law? I think the answer to this question will cleanly divide the two camps. I believe the answer is yes, otherwise Romans 2:12-16 makes no sense. What "things of the Law" are instinctively done? Wearing tzit tzit? Not mixing material types? Yet I'm sure your answer is no.

(Aside: not to be argumentative, but the LXX simply says "hear". I found this article that says that Hebrew has no word for obey, and it actually seems to suggest that the absence of the concept of obey from the Shema is significant. Perhaps "hear and understand" or "having understood, do" -- but of course, this is not said in 6:4, as it is later in 27:10 when Moses says listen and follow.)
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Quote:

Not mixing material types? Yet I'm sure your answer is no.

Tangent commentary incoming. The actual verse for this Deut 22:11, and it says specifically not to weave together wool and linen. Any further limitation on the mixing of materials is a matter of interpretation, not a stated command.

I think it is a fascinating commandment anyway. Wool and linen have very separate properties as fabric. One effect of this is that these items can't be washed. Once they are drenched and dried, the fibers of the two material act very differently, and the garment basically tears itself apart. They are quite literally single use items of clothing.

So what? Well, here I get to speculate. It certainly took resources and time to make these garments. Anyone looking at the garment must have been able to tell it was a mixed weave, and therefore single use. Anyone who could afford to wear such things must have been very wealthy to waste money on clothes that could never be reused. So it was probably an ostentatious show of wealth to wear such things. So perhaps the spirit of the commandment means we shouldn't dress to display wealth. Or maybe we shouldn't waste money, time, and resources on fleeting material things. Or maybe God doesn't want people to intentionally use perfectly fine material to make inferior products for the sake of status and fashion.

But again, if all you see is a commandment you can ignore then you wouldn't bother researching it, reading about it, or discussing the purpose of it. And then the reason God gave the commandment is also ignored.
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Zobel
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AG
I agree with you here, and I think this is an example of a way a person could instinctively follow the Law as a kind of law unto itself without following the Law. And, a person can follow that commandment and miss the point completely.
swimmerbabe11
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The wiki is fascinating
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shatnez

semi related, the wiki for dry cleaning is also interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_cleaning#History
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Quote:

I agree with you here, and I think this is an example of a way a person could instinctively follow the Law as a kind of law unto itself without following the Law. And, a person can follow that commandment and miss the point completely.

This is one reason why I don't worry about whether people worship exactly the way I do. If they have a heart for God, He will work it all out.
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agie95
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AG
k2aggie07 said:

My wording was not precise -- obviously as stated it is tautological. If those two commandments are part of the Law keeping the Law requires keeping those.

The meaning here is that if one performs all of the outward actions of the Law, one can still not keep the Law. I think Christ's sermons make this abundantly clear.

The corollary to this statement is far more interesting. Performing none of the outward actions of the Law, can one keep the spirit or intent of the Law? I think the answer to this question will cleanly divide the two camps. I believe the answer is yes, otherwise Romans 2:12-16 makes no sense. What "things of the Law" are instinctively done? Wearing tzit tzit? Not mixing material types? Yet I'm sure your answer is no.

(Aside: not to be argumentative, but the LXX simply says "hear". I found this article that says that Hebrew has no word for obey, and it actually seems to suggest that the absence of the concept of obey from the Shema is significant. Perhaps "hear and understand" or "having understood, do" -- but of course, this is not said in 6:4, as it is later in 27:10 when Moses says listen and follow.)

Without the circumcision of the heart all is for naught. This is why in the Torah and the Prophets it is stated one must be circumcised of the heart. Paul did not originate the thought.

Despite you trying to put words in my mouth, no one is going to wear tzitzit on their own. Loving another person, a neighbor, is much more instinctive, natural per se, then loving God. For how do you love God? He tells us how to love Him. Love being an action and not a feeling as most think of love today. Paul says things of the Torah, not necessarily all of the Torah. There are many people who lived on this earth who never heard of Judaism or Christianity. Yet as Paul says in Romans 2, all will be judged by the same Torah.

It is a common thought that God is going to judge us based on what we know or at least had the opportunity to know. If you have the Torah, then you have this knowledge of God's will, His instructions to those who turn to Him. As Paul states in Romans 2 as well, it is not the hearers of the Torah who are just, but the doers that will be justified.

One can find an article stating whatever you want to find if you look hard enough. The author continues on and states "To respond in deed, to do what someone else wants" as in "Do whatever Sarah tells you" is a way shema is used. In essence it means listen. When a parent tells a child to listen it is b/c we then want them to obey us. Which is why many state shema means hear and obey. Hebrew/Judaism is about physical action while the better part of the western world is about mentally understanding something. Unfortunately, I believe this author is mixing the two. He goes on about how God wants us to understand every commandment. Yet, there are several commandments we do not know why for sure. We can come up with theories, but they are just that....theories.

Many, many people, native Hebrew speakers will say it means hear and obey. Even Bible translators translate it this way sometimes:

Psalm 18:44 - As soon as they hear (shema), they obey (shema) me; Foreigners submit to me. (NASB)

Reading the context of Deut 6 also gives one this same meaning. It is about keeping the Torah of Hashem. V3 says hear, therefore, Israel, and take care to do this. v6 these words that I am commanding you today should be on your hearts. It is all about obeying.

agie95
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AG
ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

I agree with you here, and I think this is an example of a way a person could instinctively follow the Law as a kind of law unto itself without following the Law. And, a person can follow that commandment and miss the point completely.

This is one reason why I don't worry about whether people worship exactly the way I do. If they have a heart for God, He will work it all out.
Yet we are told in the Torah and by Paul to reprove/rebuke others when not following properly.

'You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. Lev 19:17 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
There's also Romans 14:4

Who are you to judge someone else's servant?To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

If someone requests my opinion or thoughts I am not shy about giving it. Giving unsolicited advice is a good way to make people angry, and then they don't listen at all.
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agie95
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AG
Knowing the difference between judging and reproving would be important then.
 
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