ramblin_ag02 said:

---

For K2, booboo and our various Catholics, it is Father, Son, Spirit and Church. K2 has said on occasion that the Church (his church specifically, but also "pure" Christianity more generally) is perfect and without flaw. The Church complete with beliefs, teachings, and practices is completely inerrable, indestructible, incorruptable, and indomitable. This is usually couched by either saying that the Church is Christ's perfect bride or that it is the earthly manifestation of the Spirit.

Either way, it honestly sort of sets my teeth on edge. The Torah and the Church are both blessings sent directly from God, but even those can become idols. You don't have to look any further than the bronze serpent from the Exodus to see an example of this. Both the Torah and Church provide instruction and structure to faith, but when you elevate either to the actual level of God you steer into idolatry.

---

1) Would say- God (Holy Trinity-Jesus- Spirit) is without flaw. The church which is mankind guided by the Holy Spirit, is absolutely filled with failed people (we see this over and over in both OT and NT). We have the perfect message of God/Jesus carried out by imperfect people. I think Jesus nails it in this quote Matt 23:3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

2) Absolutely agree the rules of Torah/Church can take us in the wrong direction if used in the wrong way. It is a balancing act of being guided by the Spirit. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Example- Good Samaritan Parable- letter of law said do not touch someone unclean. Spirit of law (law of love) is to go help our neighbor in the ditch. We worry about them more than we worry about ourselves. What happens to them if I don't help them vs. what will happen to me?

3) I don't fully understand the bronze serpent comment. Christian would say they were healed by faith. Do you think there was something wrong with Moses holding up the serpent?

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Just going off what you've already written. You equate the Torah and the Logos. You say they are the same. John 1 calls the Logos God. If you believe the Torah is the Logos, and you believe John 1, then you quite literally believe the Torah is God. I'm happy to be corrected, but I've seen you make that exact connection.

---

Yes I have Ramblin_ag02, you must understand there are different levels of understanding. You are speaking from an Peshat level and John writes on the Sod level. Whether you want to state that logos is Torah or any other part of God's word, it is still what became flesh, per John. The word is manifested, Yeshua is that manifestation.

Quote:

---

God said "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the Lord." Isaiah 55:8.

You say the food commandments are done with, obsolete, etc, yet in Isaiah 66:17 it says "Who eat swine's flesh, detestable things and mice, Will come to an end altogether," declares the Lord."

They are not obsolete. Just b/c the constitution of Israel is not the Torah today, like it was in the beginning, does not mean these are obsolete.

---

Agie95, Stay on track.

Do you still follow these laws of the 613? (see list below- this is from your list of 613- this was ALL of the Torah) Answer- NO You don't capture women in battle you do not stone people, you do not have slaves you do not kill Amalek (if they even exist). Question- Why Not? Answer- Because they no longer apply

-611-113- We see today a lot of Jews capturing woman in battle and taking them as slaves (sarcasm)
-598- Wipe out the descendants of Amalek
-589- High priest must not enter same roof as a corpse (Parable of Good Samaritan)
- 540s- Death penalty Strangulation, and stoning- Note: I see this all the time from Jews today stoning people (sarcasm)
-514- Canaanite slaves must work forever- also other slave comments- see a lot of Jewish people with their slaves (more sarcasm)
-494- Make a guardrail around flat roofs. (Early Osha - worker safety Law)
-No temple worship laws- many (Obsolete- Jesus tells us he is the temple, we see no more temple- 2000 yrs )

Do you still follow ALL of the 10 commandments- Answer Yes

Quote:

---

Christians did not start worshiping on Sunday early on. No where in Acts or the epistles is this stated. Not one place. Complete fallacy by the church.

---

Agie95,

Read this for NT quotes and quotes of early fathers on Christians worshipping on Sunday- Lord's Day. Catholic Answers- Worship on Lord's Day- History

Note: this was way before Constantine in 300s.

On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. Acts 20: 7

On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 1 Corinthians 16:2

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (Justin Martyr First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

booboo91 said:

---

So Agie95,

Curious how did you go from Baptist- to rejecting Christian understanding of Jesus and becoming Jewish? What was the compelling event?

---

I listened to the Spirit - Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Ezekiel 36:26-27

I really did not know about this verse until a while after I was being moved this way, yet it fits perfectly. I studied a lot about eschatology at one time and started to wonder:

Why does Malachi warn to remember the "Law of Moses" in the end days (Malachi 4)?

Why does Yeshua say to pray our flight won't be on the Sabbath (the real Sabbath)? (Matthew 24)

Why are the assemblies in Revelation warned about things outside the ten commandments? (Rev 2 & 3)

There is never a redefining of sin. Yeshua paid off the debt b/c of that sin, but sin is never redefined. Sin is sin. There is not one verse that states He changed what believers are supposed to follow. He even warned about those who say they do things in His name, but practice lawlessness...not following Torah.

Why is the dragon going after those who keep the commandments and have faith in Yeshua (Rev 12:17 and 14:12)

Why does Paul say the doers of the Torah are just and not the hearers?

I started asking myself these questions and more. I was truly seeking God in His word and not what any doctrine teaches. The church does not teach the Bible. They teach doctrine.

I don't know if there was an event that triggered it. It was truly searching God's word. Just like the Bereans who were searching the Tanakh for everything Paul said. There is no way Paul said anything about not following Torah, b/c everywhere in the Tanakh says to follow Torah.

Quote:

---

---

I follow all ten commandments, generally speaking Christians do not. You cannot change God's word. The Sabbath is Sabbath. Then there is this trinity thing which can be a form of idolatry.

I have said this many times in the past, no one, ever, even the Messiah, has ever done all 613 commandments. Some are for farmers, some for priests, some for the high priest, some for women, some are only why in the land of Israel, etc. No one single person has ever done them all.

You are choosing to change what God said to do. You are applying your reasoning as to why to do this or that. You are picking a few commandments and saying don't follow them, you are doing exactly what the Messiah said not to do. You are going against the Messiah's very own words!

Thanks for the answer on your faith journey.

I am firm believer that God makes us different and thus there are many ways to pray, and reach out to God.

We both agree (common ground) in God and that God calls us to Love him and others. We disagree on practices and some doctrinal points.

I give you a hard time, but we are on the same team!

agie95 said:

---

I follow all ten commandments, generally speaking Christians do not. You cannot change God's word. The Sabbath is Sabbath. Then there is this trinity thing which can be a form of idolatry.

I have said this many times in the past, no one, ever, even the Messiah, has ever done all 613 commandments. Some are for farmers, some for priests, some for the high priest, some for women, some are only why in the land of Israel, etc. No one single person has ever done them all.

You are choosing to change what God said to do. You are applying your reasoning as to why to do this or that. You are picking a few commandments and saying don't follow them, you are doing exactly what the Messiah said not to do. You are going against the Messiah's very own words!

---

1) I would say Christians do follow 10 commandments (The ones that do attend church weekly and rest with family). We just pray on another day- Lord's day. Catholic church- Mortal Sin if you do not go to church.

Quote:

---

I have said this many times in the past, no one, ever, even the Messiah, has ever done all 613 commandments. Some are for farmers, some for priests, some for the high priest, some for women, some are only why in the land of Israel, etc. No one single person has ever done them all.

---

2) This is a moot point. They are still obsolete. No one (farmers, priest, women) today follows some of the 613 laws. Because they are obsolete. By contrast everyone still follows the 10 commandments which are timeless.

Quote:

---

You are choosing to change what God said to do. You are applying your reasoning as to why to do this or that. You are picking a few commandments and saying don't follow them, you are doing exactly what the Messiah said not to do. You are going against the Messiah's very own words!

---

2) Would say you are ignoring Jesus (God) and the NT, the fulfillment and clarifications- Good Samaritan Example . You miss how the story ends!

booboo91 said:

---

Quote:

---

Christians did not start worshiping on Sunday early on. No where in Acts or the epistles is this stated. Not one place. Complete fallacy by the church.

---

Agie95,

Read this for NT quotes and quotes of early fathers on Christians worshipping on Sunday- Lord's Day. Catholic Answers- Worship on Lord's Day- History

Note: this was way before Constantine in 300s.

On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. Acts 20: 7

On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 1 Corinthians 16:2

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (Justin Martyr First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

---

Ok, I read the linked material. It states "The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished."

The church show that the apostles abolished circumcision and uses Galatians 5:1-6 as support. Galatians 5:1-6 is speaking to those who are trying to be saved by works. v4 - You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

So this is an error b/c that is not abolishing anything. All that is saying is works don't save you unless of course you are perfect.

The article gives the verses you showed above. You bolded certain words, but the problem is that is not what the Greek says! Stop trusting your church. The Greek is mia Sabbaton. The word for day is hemera which is not in the Greek. Mia means one. The Greek word for first is protos. Protos is used many times like in Matthew 19:30 when it says but many are first shall be last and the last shall be first. Mia is translated as one a majority of the time (62 out of 79 times) and should be here. There are different Greek versions out there. Another version says heis sabbaton. Heis is translated as one as well.

A better translation is one Sabbath. Does this makes sense contextually? Let's see.

In verse 6 it states - We sailed from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and came to them at Troas within five days; and there we stayed seven days.

Why is this important? Well after Pesach we start counting the omer. Leviticus 23:15-16 - 'You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths. 16 You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to the Lord.

It is very likely they were counting the omer, since that was the commandment. Typically, Jews did not use names for days, they counted to the Shabbat. The Shabbat day had a name. This is probably the first Sabbath after the feast of Unleavened Bread! Context is so very important.

1 Corinthians 16:2 - guess what....it uses the exact same phrase mia sabbaton. It doesn't state they were meeting that day. It says to put aside money and when Paul comes there will have to be no collections.

These are hardly proof of anything about "Sunday" worship. The Catholic church openly admits Sunday is not the Sabbath day, but Saturday is.

Colossians 2:16-17 - I have gone over this many times. It doesn't need to be done again. Paul is telling those who are participating in the Jewish festivals, Shabbat, eating and drinking good food and wine, that don't let the agnostics judge you for it.

The Lord's Day? Sunday is never called the Lord's Day and don't even try to use the verse in Revelation.

As far as the so-called church fathers, I don't care what they say. Scripture says otherwise. I know you put a lot of faith in them, but if what they say directly contradicts what Scripture says, I am going with Scripture.

Provide in context proof that I am ignoring anything written in the Bible. Give specific Scripture in context.

Yeshua said anyone who annuls will be least. The church annuls more than just the least.

Quote:

---

Yes I have Ramblin_ag02, you must understand there are different levels of understanding. You are speaking from an Peshat level and John writes on the Sod level. Whether you want to state that logos is Torah or any other part of God's word, it is still what became flesh, per John. The word is manifested, Yeshua is that manifestation.

---

Yes the Logos became flesh and is Christ and God. But the Torah is really just a set of written rules. They come directly from God, but they were still given to a certain level of civilization. They can be pretty anachronistic today. Now the love, good intention, wisdom, thought, reverence, and selflessness that make the Torah are all from the Logos. In other words, the fundamental principles from which the instructions of the Torah arise come from the nature of the Logos, which is Christ. As such, Torah is a pure reflection of Christ's nature as it pertained to Hebrews 3000 years ago, but the Torah is not eternal like Christ and did not become flesh.

agie95 said:

---

k2aggie07 said:

---

Lawlessness is anomia and is one with the Mosaic law.

That's a presumption.

---

It is not a presumption.

1 John 3:4 - Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Sin is breaking Torah. This is the consistent message throughout Scripture. Per the BLB, destitute of the Mosaic Law is the exact definition (Strong's) of the root word of anomia.


BLB

---

The word nomos does not always mean the Mosaic Law. This is easily shown.

Romans 3:27-31 "the nomos of faith"
Romans 7:23, 8:2 "the nomos of sin"
Romans 8:2 "the nomos of the Spirit
Gal 6:2 "the nomos of Christ"

How about 1 Corinthians 15:56? "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law [nomos]..." Surely the power of sin is not the Mosaic law?

If that's the case, anomia is the absence of nomos, but the specificity of what nomos is being broken must be viewed as the nomos in question.

St Paul's writings vary greatly in the use of the word nomos as to the specific Mosaic Law, the legal sections of the Pentateuch, the law of nature, the ceremonial portions of the law, general legalism, etc. When speaking with a little more specificity of the Law proper, he's clear that it applies to people that have it and don't (in Romans) and also that it's a beneficial tutor or pedagogue that we have graduated from in Christ.

The only way the whole seemingly inconsistent and confused picture makes sense is if we understand fulfill as it is used to apply to various parts. And what does St Paul say of fulfill?

"He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law... Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8b,10)

For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14).

So, Christ said he didn't come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. And He did. (John 15:13, 1 John 4:8).

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Oddly enough, if I was going to have a criticism of K2, booboo, or agie95, that criticism would be pretty similar in each case. From the way I see it, you all worship the Father, Son, Spirit and something else as well. The Godhead has an extraneous addition.

For K2, booboo and our various Catholics, it is Father, Son, Spirit and Church. K2 has said on occasion that the Church (his church specifically, but also "pure" Christianity more generally) is perfect and without flaw. The Church complete with beliefs, teachings, and practices is completely inerrable, indestructible, incorruptable, and indomitable. This is usually couched by either saying that the Church is Christ's perfect bride or that it is the earthly manifestation of the Spirit.

Either way, it honestly sort of sets my teeth on edge. The Torah and the Church are both blessings sent directly from God, but even those can become idols. You don't have to look any further than the bronze serpent from the Exodus to see an example of this. Both the Torah and Church provide instruction and structure to faith, but when you elevate either to the actual level of God you steer into idolatry.

---

The Church is not the earthly manifestation of the Spirit. The Church is the body of Christ, and He is its only priest, pastor, guide, ruler, and teacher. He remains with His Church as its living and unique head, and is present and active in the Church through the Holy Spirit.

The Church is perfect and without flaw, inerrable, etc. as far as it is associated with Christ, who is the head.

I worship nothing other than Christ, because Christ the beginning, middle, and end of my faith. Everything in the faith is Christocentric.

I would challenge you to ever find anything I've written that elevates the Church to the godhead. Agie95 explicitly says that the Torah is the Word. The Church is not Christ.

I will say that, in a mystical way, the Church will become / is becoming Christ, in that each believer who is being saved is in the process of becoming like Christ, conformed to His image, one with Him and the Father, etc etc etc.

Quote:

---

The Church is the body of Christ, and He is its only priest, pastor, guide, ruler, and teacher. He remains with His Church as its living and unique head, and is present and active in the Church through the Holy Spirit.

The Church is perfect and without flaw, inerrable, etc. as far as it is associated with Christ, who is the head.

---

Do you see how these statements could easily justify worship of the Church as an expression of worship of Christ?

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

Yes I have Ramblin_ag02, you must understand there are different levels of understanding. You are speaking from an Peshat level and John writes on the Sod level. Whether you want to state that logos is Torah or any other part of God's word, it is still what became flesh, per John. The word is manifested, Yeshua is that manifestation.

---

Yes the Logos became flesh and is Christ and God. But the Torah is really just a set of written rules. They come directly from God, but they were still given to a certain level of civilization. They can be pretty anachronistic today. Now the love, good intention, wisdom, thought, reverence, and selflessness that make the Torah are all from the Logos. In other words, the fundamental principles from which the instructions of the Torah arise come from the nature of the Logos, which is Christ. As such, Torah is a pure reflection of Christ's nature as it pertained to Hebrews 3000 years ago, but the Torah is not eternal like Christ and did not become flesh.

---

Completely disagree. The Torah is eternal. The Torah is a living framework to have a relationship with God. It is the way of Life. It teaches how to be holy.

The Torah from Your mouth is better to me than thousands of gold and silver pieces. Psalm 119:72

David thought pretty highly of it...not just a set of written rules. Remember David was a man after God's own heart? Why? He loved the Torah.

Forever, Adonai, Your word stands firm in the heavens. Psalm 119:89

Psalm 119 is all about Torah. The Word is Torah.

Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the Torah of Adonai. 2 Happy are those who keep His testimonies, who seek Him with a whole heart, Psalm 119:1-2

Those who follow Torah are seeking Him with a whole heart.

How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to Your word. Psalm 119:9

According to the Word. Why, David only could be speaking of TORAH!!!


Happy is the one who has not walked in the advice of the wicked,nor stood in the way of sinners,
nor sat in the seat of scoffers. But his delight is in the Torah of Adonai, and on His Torah he meditates day and night. He will be like a planted tree over streams of water,producing its fruit during its season. Its leaf never droopsbut in all he does, he succeeds. Psalm 1:1-3

Then youyou will return and listen to the voice of Adonai and do all His mitzvot that I am commanding you today. 9 Adonai your God will make you prosper in all the work of your handin the fruit of your womb, and the offspring of your livestock, and the produce of your soilfor good. For Adonai will again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your fathers 10 when you listen to the voice of Adonai your God, to keep His mitzvot and His statutes that are written in this scroll of the Torah, when you turn to Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Dueteronomy 30:8-10

Chapter 30 is believed by many a prophecy that is still future.


The Torah demands more respect than what you are giving it. Heck, Yeshua said He was the Way the Truth and the Life, these are all ways to say Torah, Torah Torah. Torah is the Way, it is the Truth, and it is the Life!


It is eternal - Long ago I learned from your statutes that you established them to last forever. Psalm 119:152

Long ago I learned from your statutes that you established them to last forever. Psalm 119:160

How long? Forever? The Word is Torah and it is eternal. It is forever. David used word for Torah over and over again. smh

I think you need to define your terms better. Everything you just described applies to the Logos. If you want to use the words Torah and Logos interchangeably, then you need different terminology to refer to the written Mosaic Law. The written Mosaic Law is most certainly not the Way, the Truth, or the Life. It is certainly based on those things, but it does not embody them the way Christ (Logos/Torah) does.

When you refer to written (or oral) Mosaic Law as Torah and then also equate the Logos and Torah, then you confuse the issue greatly. It seems that you are calling the Mosaic Law as God, or that you can't differentiate the Mosaic Law from the Logos/Torah that originated it.

My definitions are fine. It is your Greek minded, Christian perspective that doesn't allow you to see it.

So according to you the Mosaic law equals the Torah equals the Logos equals God, but I am somehow mischaracterizing your position when I say you worship the Mosaic Law as God? Just making sure I have this clear.

k2aggie07 said:

---

agie95 said:

---

k2aggie07 said:

---

Lawlessness is anomia and is one with the Mosaic law.

That's a presumption.

---

It is not a presumption.

1 John 3:4 - Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Sin is breaking Torah. This is the consistent message throughout Scripture. Per the BLB, destitute of the Mosaic Law is the exact definition (Strong's) of the root word of anomia.


BLB

---

The word nomos does not always mean the Mosaic Law. This is easily shown.

Romans 3:27-31 "the nomos of faith"
Romans 7:23, 8:2 "the nomos of sin"
Romans 8:2 "the nomos of the Spirit
Gal 6:2 "the nomos of Christ"

How about 1 Corinthians 15:56? "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law [nomos]..." Surely the power of sin is not the Mosaic law?

If that's the case, anomia is the absence of nomos, but the specificity of what nomos is being broken must be viewed as the nomos in question.

St Paul's writings vary greatly in the use of the word nomos as to the specific Mosaic Law, the legal sections of the Pentateuch, the law of nature, the ceremonial portions of the law, general legalism, etc. When speaking with a little more specificity of the Law proper, he's clear that it applies to people that have it and don't (in Romans) and also that it's a beneficial tutor or pedagogue that we have graduated from in Christ.

The only way the whole seemingly inconsistent and confused picture makes sense is if we understand fulfill as it is used to apply to various parts. And what does St Paul say of fulfill?

"He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law... Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8b,10)

For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14).

So, Christ said he didn't come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. And He did. (John 15:13, 1 John 4:8).

---

It is not the only way. It is the only way if you see the Torah being done away it. But it isn't b/c He then followed up His statement with anyone who annuls even the least of the commandments will be least in the kingdom.

Fulfill as I pointed out earlier:

Quote:

---

Matthew 5:17 - Fulfill - Thayer's Greek Lexicon -
Universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment: Mt. v. 17; cf.Weiss, Das Matthusevang. u.s.w. p.146 sq.

---

Yeshua lived out God's will by following Torah without sinning. He showed us how to do it. He clarified how to do it. Hence, right after He said He came to fulfill it, He corrected the teaching in Matthew 5. No where in the verses you provided does fulfill mean end.

Don't annul what God said to do. Yeshua clearly said those who do annul the commandments like some of the Pharisees won't be in the kindgom of Heaven.

I just don't see how you can see that He clearly says anyone who annuls the least of the commandments... and then you try and point out that some of them are annulled. It doesn't make any sense. He can't be the Jewish Messiah if He annuled. He would be a hyprocrite, for He called some of the Pharisees for setting aside some of the commandments for their tradition. Seems like exactly what the so-called church fathers did.

Honestly, no. Not at all.

In church, we use our liturgies to worship. At no point do any of them seem to imply we worship the church.

Here's the text of the usual liturgy.
http://www.orthodoxyork.org/liturgy.html

agie95 said:

---

Provide in context proof that I am ignoring anything written in the Bible. Give specific Scripture in context.

Yeshua said anyone who annuls will be least. The church annuls more than just the least.

---

Agie95,

1) You are ignoring laws, but it is not intentional. I have provided definitive proof, that Today in 2017 (roughly 3000 years later). You and everyone else no longer follow many of the 613 laws because they no longer apply, they are obsolete or fulfilled. You don't stone people, you don't have slaves, you don't attack Amalek. But you do still follow the law of love. My opinion you are too legalistic, too hung up on the rules when the focus of the Torah is love .

2) the church has authority. Words from Jesus- Matt 18 17-18 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matt 18 17-18 Note: from the Gospel a book you accept!

The church (apostles) removed the burden of some of the Mosaic Laws in 50 AD. Council of Jerusalem. This is not a religious discussion (opinion) but historical fact. This change occured with Apostles not with Constantine (300 AD). Agie95- embrace the historical truth.

Agie95,

Once you recognize the Truth at Council of Jerusalem. You have (2) choices:

1) Say the Apostles (Peter and Paul) were wrong, made the wrong decision. I have never heard you say this.

2) Accept what happened. You won't do this because you think nothing changes from the OT ( Nothing can be fulfilled or obsolete). You don't recognize full authority of Jesus and the Church. Note: the Gospels that you accept- were written by the church!

You have not provided any proof and I am not ignoring laws. You have decided what one passage means, which contradicts other verses, and made your doctrine this passage. You have been deceived by your church, by your leaders. It is really sad. You provide Matt. 18:17-18, but He is not telling that they can change Torah. If He did, He is not the Messiah, b/c that would have been a sin.

Let's look at that passage in context. Christians really have a hard time with context. 15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

If a brother sins and he refuses to listen, then let them be as a Gentile and a tax collector. In other words, they mean nothing to you. You can despise them. Gentiles are dogs, heathens, pagans. He is not telling them to change Torah, but whatever they decree/judge then that is binding. Come on! Let's get real here. Stop the nonsense.


And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. 2 John 1:6

You said in an earlier post that some of the commandments were love. I say all of them are love. You misunderstand what love is. Your definition of love is subjected. God's isn't. This is the commandment that you heard from the beginning.....which is Torah!

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:2-3

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

How did Yeshua walk? He followed the Torah and so should you. No man has the authority to change Torah. That is a commandment. So you are stating that the apostles had the authority to change God's word.

That is a BIG BIG problem. I don't recall stating the change occurred with Constantine. I will never embrace historical truth. Scriptural truth is what I follow.

Changed with the apostles? Paul is a Pharisee, he was zealous for Torah. This is what he taught as well:

And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; Acts 21

Then the "council" is concerned for Paul's life cause of the rumors "that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses". What do they do? Tell him to pay for 4 men and himself to end the Nazarite vow. Yes, Paul was under a Nazarite vow, which requires many sacrifices to end. Why? To prove he wasn't teaching against Torah. For he said as to the Torah blameless.


Effectively you are arguing to follow man's traditions, man's decisions over following Torah. Whatever man decides can happen. Yet, this is the very thing that Yeshua argued against and Paul even taught not to do. (Matthew 15, Colossians 2) Stop following man's ways.

Quote:

---

In other words, they mean nothing to you. You can despise them. Gentiles are dogs, heathens, pagans.

---

Nice outlook you got here.

Didn't Yeshua say He did not come to abolish, yet that is the exact thing you are arguing. To abolish, end, no longer do. Yet Yeshua said anyone who annuls is least in the kingdom. What you argue contradicts His very own words.

Paul said be doers of the Torah and not just hearers.

for it is not the hearers of the Torah who are just before God, but the doers of the Torah will be justified. Romans 2:13

Do we then nullify the Torah through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah. Romans 3:31

The word used for uphold is histemi and means to validate something that is in force or in practice, reinforce validity of, uphold, maintain, validate.

Romans was several years after Acts 15 & Galatians.

No the Gospels were not written by the church. Completely false.

Yeshua said it not me:

But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." Matthew 15:25-27

Gentiles and tax collectors were despised people. Pagans, greedy, sinful people. In the above story, someone who is not willing to turn from their sin, you are not to having anything to do with. In time, you will be doing the same thing. We are to be holy, that is set apart. You can't be set apart if you are doing the same thing the pagans are doing.

Yeah, Christ Jesus totally treated Gentiles and tax collectors like dogs.

If fidelity to the law is the standard for being despised by God, no one will stand. (Ps 130:3).

Quote:

---

Yeah, Christ Jesus totally treated Gentiles and tax collectors like dogs.

If fidelity to the law is the standard for being despised by God, no one will stand. (Ps 130:3).

---

I didn't say treat them like dogs. You are misreading what I wrote as usual.

He said to treat those who will not repent from sin like Gentiles and tax collectors. In that day, that meant despise them, not to have anything to do with them.

Eating dinner at their houses, hanging out with them, dying for them. Totally despised.

agie95 said:

---

My definitions are fine. It is your Greek minded, Christian perspective that doesn't allow you to see it.

---

Have you considered that perhaps when communicating with "Greek minded Christians" that there could be a more effective diction? Or does part of the treating them like dogs mean that you are too superior to even make an effort?

Out of context...again.

Each of those you listed were people who turned towards God. God is always willing to allow anyone to turn to Him and accept His ways. They must be repentant though otherwise you are to treat them as a Gentile or a tax collector.

Paul basically says the same thing.

I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindlernot even to eat with such a one. 1 Corinthians 5:9-11

This person in Matthew 18 is someone with an unrepentant heart. You are not to associate with such a person.

A person who turns to God is son of Abraham, therefore a Jew and not a Gentile.

Presumption again. Not everyone who approached Christ Jesus in the gospels was a would-be convert to Judaism.

Not presumptuous. Yeshua did not continue to "hang out" as you call it with those with unrepentant hearts. That is a church fallacy. We know of two tax collector's that Yeshua comes in contact with, Matthew and Zaccheus.

I think it is pretty clear that Matthew turned from His ways, so what about Zaccheus:

Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much." Luke 19:8

Seems pretty repentant to me.

The woman who Yeshua basically called a dog was someone who saw Him for what He was and answered as one with faith.


"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Mark 2:17

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city." Mark 6:11

Yeshua is basically saying that people who do not receive His word will meet an even worse fate than Sodom or Gomorrah. If they receive you and repent, great. If not, just shake off your shoes, and move on to the next person needing a doctor.

Plus other examples. Did everyone turn to Him? No, but He also didn't continue "hanging around" them either.

Should we continue praying for such a turning sure, but anyone with an unrepentant heart should not be someone we hang around by any stretch of the imagination lest you become like him.

You've moved the goalposts, but that's ok.

Sounds like a line from someone who cannot prove their argument.

Quote:

---

If a brother sins and he refuses to listen, then let them be as a Gentile and a tax collector. In other words, they mean nothing to you. You can despise them. Gentiles are dogs, heathens, pagans.

---

Quote:

---

Gentiles and tax collectors were despised people. Pagans, greedy, sinful people. In the above story, someone who is not willing to turn from their sin, you are not to having anything to do with. In time, you will be doing the same thing. We are to be holy, that is set apart. You can't be set apart if you are doing the same thing the pagans are doing.

---

Quote:

---

I didn't say treat them like dogs. You are misreading what I wrote as usual.

He said to treat those who will not repent from sin like Gentiles and tax collectors. In that day, that meant despise them, not to have anything to do with them.

This person in Matthew 18 is someone with an unrepentant heart. You are not to associate with such a person.

Plus other examples. Did everyone turn to Him? No, but He also didn't continue "hanging around" them either.

---

Quote:

---

Should we continue praying for such a turning sure, but anyone with an unrepentant heart should not be someone we hang around by any stretch of the imagination lest you become like him.

---

You reject anything I say, b/c I come speaking the truth. It goes against what you have always been taught and you cannot accept that.

Do we then nullify the Torah through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah. Romans 3:31