booboo91 said:
Thanks for your answers. I can agree and appreciate much of what you have said, most of the disagreements that I have are minor. Except for the following:
1) I think our big disagreements are on the fullfillment of the OT. In my opinion, you seem to think that nothing can change, that Jesus can not make a new covenant. Everything must stay the same- thus we need to follow all 613 laws- including the ceremonial laws. It is all or none. When Christians acknowledge moral laws remain- thus early Christians would read the OT- it was there bible.
2) You ignore the proven historical evidence on outcome on the Council of Jerusalem. We see comments in NT, from early church fathers, from secular encyclopedia. "Judaizers is a term for Christians who insist that their co-religionists should follow the Law of Moses."
The Catholic point of view is the majority Christian point of view on this topic on the outcome on the council of Jerusalem. Don't need to follow the Ceremonial law- no circumcision. Need Faith in Jesus. You were once Baptist- you know this. And we see this in NT, from Apostles, from early church fathers, from Christian churches today- 2000 years later.
I never said that Yeshua cannot make a "new" covenant, for Scripture clearly states there is one. Jeremiah 31:31-34 gives us the most detail about this covenant. This covenant is between the House of Israel and Judah and God. The covenant states the Torah is going to be placed in people and written on their hearts. Not a new Torah, but God says torati - My Torah. The one thing I will say is the covenant is not complete yet. Jeremiah states in v34 - "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD... As far as I know, people are still having to be taught, therefore this covenant is not complete.
You seem to believe a covenant replaces another. Yet, not one other time in Scripture does a covenant ever replace another one. Today we are used to agreements, contracts, etc being broken, but that is not the case during those days. Covenants are agreed to forever or its death. Let's think of all the major covenants (there are more than these, but these are the major ones) and where anyone of them replaces another based on actual Scripture....not your beliefs:
Covenant's with Adam - Genesis 2:2-3, 15-17, 3:15
Noah's Covenant - Genesis 9
Covenant with Abraham - Genesis 12
Covenant at Sinai - Exodus 19-24
Covenant with David - 2 Samuel 7
Jeremiah's Covenant "New Covenant" - Jeremiah 31
Each of these covenants build on one another. They do not take away or replace.
While the covenant at Sinai added new revelations of God to the Abrahamic covenant, such only intended to clarify the plan of salvation. The history of salvation demonstrates progressive revelation, an unfolding of a
larger plan of redemption. God's covenants can therefore be understood as being one in essence, because God is the same gracious God yesterday, today, and forever.
While Jeremiah 31 is referenced as the first place this "new" covenant is spoken, it in reality he is not the only prophet who did so. Ezekiel, who was a contemporary of Jeremiah, also spoke of this covenant. Ezekiel writes:
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord," declares the Lord God, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26
Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29 Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30 I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 I am not doing
this for your sake," declares the Lord God, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!" Ezekiel 36:22-32
From here one can see what God is actually putting in a believer - the Holy Spirit. What will the Spirit cause one to do?
I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Ezekiel 37 continues explaining:
21 Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. 23
They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.24 "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons' sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."'"
This is still yet to happen. For since the split they have not come together. The Messiah will be king over them, they will have one shepherd, and they will waking in God's ordinances and keep His statutes and observe them. They will live in Israel and the Messiah will be their prince forever. He will place His sanctuary in their midst.....the Third Temple built not with human hands.
You are right in that I ignore proven historical evidence of the church who teaches men not to follow God's ways. Any word can have whatever meaning you want to attach to it. Paul, who considered himself a Pharisee during his ministry, followed Torah and taught to follow Torah. You are mistaken about the council. All other Scripture shows God's ways (Torah) is to be followed. The problem is you take Paul and his Epistles over the Messiah's own words:
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others
to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches
them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19
Do these sound like the words of a Man who knew that the Torah was about to be abolished? If we take
the Messiah's words literally, we believe it is safe to say that He cautioned His followers to not think
that He had come to destroy the Torah. Yet it is this very thingthe destruction, eradication and elimination of
the Torah-that many of today's religious leaders teach their members to believe.
As far as I know, heaven and earth are still here. You read fulfill as to end. What is interesting is you are effectively saying the Messiah said: "I didn't come to abolish the Torah and the Prophets but to end." While I say it means to correctly interpret, which is was He does right after this statement. You have heard it said, but... You teach that we shouldn't do the commandments and the Messiah said whoever annuls one of the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called least in the kingdom.
Who should I follow? The church, who does the opposite of what God said or Scripture, which says to do what God said. The Messiah says to do the commandments and this person will be greatest.
Despite not one prophecy saying the Torah was to be "fulfilled" as you understand it (for all prophecy are declared through the prophets - Amos 3:7), despite the Messiah Himself saying to do the commandment, despite Paul while read in context says to follow Torah, and despite all other evidence you want to follow the church - men's traditions. Ezekiel is clear on what the Spirit's role is and this is to follow God's ways.
You want to say that all there is today is moral laws, but the 4 things given in Acts 15 are not moral, they are ceremonial. James also for they will here Moses every Sabbath, yet the church changed that as well. One, you don't read Moses each Sabbath and two, you don't meet on the Sabbath.
One last thing, if all a Christian has today is moral laws, how does this separate you from any other religion or any person deemed "good" by society?