Why did the Reformers/Protestants change Mass ( service) proceedings so drastically?

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Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

I'm rearranging your questions so the answers make a little more sense.

Who must attend for it to be an ecumenical council?
No one. Ecumene means inhabited land, "the whole world". We potentially can look at it two ways: attendance or applicability. Attendance doesn't actually hold up, because council attendance and representation wasn't always from "the whole world".
Was the Fifth Council of Constantinople only "applied" to the Eastern church or to "the whole world"?

k2aggie07 said:

When is an ecumenical council considered successful?
When it rightly divides the word of God's truth to defend and preserve the faith of the Apostles.
Ok, when is it considered that an ecumenical council has rightly divided the word of God's truth to defend and preserve the faith of the Apostles? Majority vote?

k2aggie07 said:

Has there not been a major heresy or schism since 1351?
I don't think so, to be honest. Not a novel one, anyway. All of the modern heresies I've ever come across are either combinations or versions of ancient ones. The ancient heresies were quite...imaginative.
You don't consider the Reformation a schism? Calvinism is not heresy? Consubstantiation? Or is the Orthodox attitude "we don't pay attention to anything in the West" because they aren't the true apostolic church?
Zobel
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

k2aggie07 said:

I'm rearranging your questions so the answers make a little more sense.

Who must attend for it to be an ecumenical council?
No one. Ecumene means inhabited land, "the whole world". We potentially can look at it two ways: attendance or applicability. Attendance doesn't actually hold up, because council attendance and representation wasn't always from "the whole world".
Was the Fifth Council of Constantinople only "applied" to the Eastern church or to "the whole world"?

k2aggie07 said:

When is an ecumenical council considered successful?
When it rightly divides the word of God's truth to defend and preserve the faith of the Apostles.
Ok, when is it considered that an ecumenical council has rightly divided the word of God's truth to defend and preserve the faith of the Apostles? Majority vote?

k2aggie07 said:

Has there not been a major heresy or schism since 1351?
I don't think so, to be honest. Not a novel one, anyway. All of the modern heresies I've ever come across are either combinations or versions of ancient ones. The ancient heresies were quite...imaginative.
You don't consider the Reformation a schism? Calvinism is not heresy? Consubstantiation? Or is the Orthodox attitude "we don't pay attention to anything in the West" because they aren't the true apostolic church?
I think we're running into a fundamental misunderstanding about what synods are or do. The Faith was delivered. The fifth council of Constantinople isn't a new edict that "applies" to anyone. Beliefs contrary to it are simple not in line with the apostolic faith.

It's like there's a building someone made in Dallas that is made of red brick. First, someone comes up and says, that building is made of straw. A council in gets together with representatives from all of Texas and says no, it is in fact made of brick. Next, someone says that building is blue. A different group of people mostly represented by folks from Houston affirm that it is in fact red. Does Houston's council's statement "apply" to the building? Well... kind of? The building is what it is, regardless of whether the council has people from El Paso represented or not. And if a Dallas council says the building is green and made of glass, they're not correct. If all of the US says it's green and made of glass, they're not correct.

As for the reformation, sure, it's a schism. But, in the view of the Orthodox Church it was a schism from a schismatic group. By the time of the reformation the Roman church had been in schism with Orthodoxy for some four centuries. Subsequent protestant confessions have been dealt with in councils by Orthodox Churches, some explicitly. There was a council in Constantinople convened to answer the Lutherans, for example. I believe I linked some information above. Patriarch Dositheos convened a synod in 1672 specifically to refute Calvinism. You can read it here. I don't think most of the heresies are all that new, though...mostly old heresies in new packaging.

swimmerbabe11
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I completely disagree with the notion that the Mysteries are prescribed in scripture. Why else would the liturgy be mostly pulled straight from? Why do we baptize 3 times? Why do we use Wine and not HI-C? Because God told us how to do these things and when you stray from what was specified in the Scripture, you are treading on dangerous ground.

(When is the last time any of you drank Hi-C? I have no idea why that was the juice that came to mind and not capri sun or sunny d or something)

A vicar can't/won't perform invocation for communion, but besides that..not true. And as the mention says in the Smalcald Article, St Jerome in Alexandria was okay without bishops. It's not required by Scripture,

Tbh, While we confess the Nicene Creed, I'm not sure that we hold the whole council as inerrant. I'd have to ask about that. The Bishop quote you used, to me, doesn't specify any kind of authority over sacraments, sanctifying a church, ordination, etc etc. Our electoral process for hierarchy purposes (which once again is administerial, not spiritual in nature) could be compared to that.



Zobel
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AG

"Scripture conveys Tradition, just as Tradition reflects all that Scripture is." That's not the same thing as saying the scripture is equivalent to a liturgical handbook.

I mean, just in your example we have a liturgical practice (baptism by triple immersion) that has no direct link with scripture. Just because we baptize under the three persons of the Trinity doesn't mean you have to physically do the act three times.

And we use wine and water, not just wine, and this also is supported by ancient witnesses to be apostolic and catholic.

What funeral rite is there in the bible? What wedding? This position makes no sense.

//

The canons are a clear witness as are basically numberless writings of the fathers that this is the practice of the entire church. This is the very definition of Catholic, universal. Bishops ordain priests and deacons. There's no reason to overturn centuries of consistent teaching.

There are other canons of Nicaea show a clear church hierarchy. Excommunication in canon 5 is solely regarded as the area of a bishop. Canon 20 mentions ordination by Bishops. Chalcedon in 451 Canon 2 precludes bishops from ordaining for money, which presumes that only bishops may ordain.

But I only cited the ecumenical councils because they are a witness to widespread practice. St Clement of Rome (27-97) spoke of St Peter ordaining one bishop with many presbyters and deacons at Laodicea. St Ignatius (50-117) notes a distinction between bishops and deacons in his letter to the Magnesians and to the Trallians going as far as saying "without these, it cannot be called a church". St Clement of Alexandria (150-215) notes the distinctions between priests, bishops, and deacons in the Paedagogus and Stromata. St Cyprian of Carthage (200-270) notes that the power of loosing in binding went from the apostles to the Churches and to the bishops who succeeded them by ordination. Eusebius (265-340) speaks exclusively of ordination by bishops. St Athanasius (296-373) tells a monk who is not accepting to become a bishop that if everyone thought or acted as he did "how would you have become a Christian, since there would be no bishops? Or if our successors are to inherit this state of mind, how will the Churches be able to hold together?" St Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) notes the separate offices of bishops, presbyters, and deacons. Blessed Theodoret (393-457) notes "all the bishops of a province are ordered to be convened; again no ordination of a bishop is permitted to take place without three bishops".

Hippolytus writes in 215 "In the ordination of a deacon, only the bishop lays on his hand, because the deacon is not ordained to the priesthood, but to the service of the bishop, to do that which he commands. For he is not part of the council of the clergy, but acts as a manager, and reports to the bishop what is necessary. He does not receive the spirit common to the elders, which the elders share, but that which is entrusted to him under the bishop's authority. This is why only the bishop makes a deacon. Upon the elders, the other elders place their hands because of a common spirit and similar duty. Indeed, the elder has only the authority to receive this, but he has no authority to give it. Therefore he does not ordain to the clergy. Upon the ordination of the elder he seals; the bishop ordains."

As far as apostolic succession, St Basil writes of the Cathari schismatics "But they who were broken off had become laymen, and, because they are no longer able to confer on others that grace of the Holy Spirit from which they themselves are fallen away, they had no authority either to baptize or to ordain."

St Jerome is a poor choice to use to attack the three-tiered clergy. If you interpret his comments that bishops and priests are the same office and differ only in age or administrative dignity, then we would expect that same saint to agree that priests and bishops have the same powers, that it's not necessary but based on circumstance, and that he would support it by showing things like... prestbyters ordaining people in the Church history.

St Jerome says "For even at Alexandria from the time of Mark the Evangelist until the episcopates of Heraclas and Dionysius the presbyters always named as bishop one of their own number chosen by themselves and set in a more exalted position...For what function, excepting ordination, belongs to a bishop that does not also belong to a presbyter?" And goes on to say that all bishops are successors to the Apostles. What St Jerome was writing against deacons overstepping their place. If you read his letter critically, you see that the flow is something like...

1. Deacons are being ranked above priests.
2. Bishops are always above deacons.
3. Presbyters and bishops were once the same office
4. Then, if priests can be equal to bishops, priests are always above deacons.

In that same letter, he finishes by saying that the three offices are in fact an apostolic tradition. "In fact as if to tell us that the traditions handed down by the apostles were taken by them from the old testament, bishops, presbyters and deacons occupy in the church the same positions as those which were occupied by Aaron, his sons, and the Levites in the temple." That is, high priest, priest, deacons. The high priest did something different in the temple than the priests did, had a different role and responsibilities not just administrative but before God.

Put another way, what St Jerome is saying is that Christ instituted the priesthood, but the apostles divided the priesthood into two offices. He's not saying the bishop isn't superior, but that the superiority is small compared with the differences between deacons (established by apostles) and priests (established by Christ).

Further, note what St Jerome does not say about priests and bishops -- that the presbyters ordain the bishop from themselves. Nope. Just that they picked. Someone else (bishops, as he notes) had to ordain.
AgLiving06
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tehmackdaddy said:

AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

k2aggie07 said:

The scriptures don't speak for themselves. They require interpretation.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit cannot speak to me through the Scriptures? That's what I mean by "reach".

If I use this logic, the Mormonism and Jehovah Witness can all be justified as "the Holy Spirit speaking to them through Scriptures" right?

Where's the line in your opinion?

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses DO use that as justification, but it doesn't have anything to do with me.


That doesn't concern you? That the Church Jesus started is so vague that anybody can go offtrack through their estimation of what the Holy Spirit is telling them?
Tamu_mgm
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AG
Quote:

Your own link basically waffled on the validity of our communion. Their best answer was "eh, kinda"

Scripture gives the recipe for right distribution of the sacraments. We adhere to that prescription.

Also, not that I particularly worry about the apostolic succession question, but if EO apostolic succession remains valid outside the RCC, then the Finnish guy's does too. The important thing, is to adhere to apostolic doctrine and teaching according to the word of God.

Also, what you are saying is a Donatist heresy.

It didn't waffle on it, it said protestants that practice and receive their version of the Eucharist still receive spiritual grace from God, but not the fullness of grace that the physical transubstantiation provides in the one true Catholic and apostolic Church, and yes that is also valid in the EO as well due to their all but identical practices and recognition of the hierarchy set forth by Christ himself (save the Pope).

EO apostolic succession is valid and a much different situation than a former Catholic breaking away from the Church and who is now Protestant. The pastor who broke away from the Catholic Church no longer has the authority from his Bishop to give out the sacraments validly, except Baptism, which does not require the Bishop's authority to be valid (as long as it is done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - because this sacrament is the sole one that is valid regardless of denomination as long as it is done through the Trinity). As K2 said, the prayers for the Eucharist are not simple incantations one can copy and paste in other denominations' services, regardless of who's saying them, former priest or not. They are valid so long as they are said directly from an apostolic successor, who came directly from the line of the Apostles themselves (obviously), who came directly from Jesus.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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I have an honest (non-trolling) question regarding Apostolic succession:

Let's consider for a moment King Saul: He was chosen as King, yet for an act of disobedience he and his heirs were removed from the throne "The Lord would have established thy kingdom for ever...". We know from history that there were times when the leadership of the RCC (Not trying to pick on them, I'm just more familiar with western history than eastern) fell far short of where it should be. If God would cast away Saul for his act of disobedience (not to mention examples of priests as well), why should I believe the claims of unbroken apostolic succession are worth anything when many (not all) links in the chain were pretty sinful people?

As a related question, if they have the "authority" of the Apostles how come they do not show the signs of the believer?
Zobel
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AG
This is completely my opinion, not sure if this is in line with my church's position or not. I don't think apostolic succession is an inheritance or conveyance of grace, at least not explicitly as from the above. I think the grace for the mysteries is entrusted to the church. Where a bishop is, that is the Church. But, obviously an invalid bishop does not constitute the Church. It's a nuance which comes first (church or bishop) but I think it's important. We don't join people, we join the Body of Christ. Everything is christocentric.

For the record, St Basil said that the baptism of schismatics wasn't valid either. There is some disparity in patristic writing over this tradition, and I believe that the West collectively inherited their position from Rome on this. I don't think the East accepts baptism from outside the church as valid except by economy.
tehmackdaddy
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

k2aggie07 said:

The scriptures don't speak for themselves. They require interpretation.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit cannot speak to me through the Scriptures? That's what I mean by "reach".

If I use this logic, the Mormonism and Jehovah Witness can all be justified as "the Holy Spirit speaking to them through Scriptures" right?

Where's the line in your opinion?

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses DO use that as justification, but it doesn't have anything to do with me.


That doesn't concern you? That the Church Jesus started is so vague that anybody can go offtrack through their estimation of what the Holy Spirit is telling them?
That is the nature of the beast that is free will. L. Ron Hubbard is quoted as stating the best way to make money is to start a religion...and then he started a religion, and people actually follow it.

It doesn't make them correct.
AgLiving06
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tehmackdaddy said:

AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

k2aggie07 said:

The scriptures don't speak for themselves. They require interpretation.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit cannot speak to me through the Scriptures? That's what I mean by "reach".

If I use this logic, the Mormonism and Jehovah Witness can all be justified as "the Holy Spirit speaking to them through Scriptures" right?

Where's the line in your opinion?

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses DO use that as justification, but it doesn't have anything to do with me.


That doesn't concern you? That the Church Jesus started is so vague that anybody can go offtrack through their estimation of what the Holy Spirit is telling them?
That is the nature of the beast that is free will. L. Ron Hubbard is quoted as stating the best way to make money is to start a religion...and then he started a religion, and people actually follow it.

It doesn't make them correct.

So what if you've been completely wrong and Mormonism is correct? You're satisfied that the God you worshipped led you down the wrong path (essentially on purpose)?
tehmackdaddy
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

k2aggie07 said:

The scriptures don't speak for themselves. They require interpretation.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit cannot speak to me through the Scriptures? That's what I mean by "reach".

If I use this logic, the Mormonism and Jehovah Witness can all be justified as "the Holy Spirit speaking to them through Scriptures" right?

Where's the line in your opinion?

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses DO use that as justification, but it doesn't have anything to do with me.


That doesn't concern you? That the Church Jesus started is so vague that anybody can go offtrack through their estimation of what the Holy Spirit is telling them?
That is the nature of the beast that is free will. L. Ron Hubbard is quoted as stating the best way to make money is to start a religion...and then he started a religion, and people actually follow it.

It doesn't make them correct.

So what if you've been completely wrong and Mormonism is correct? You're satisfied that the God you worshipped led you down the wrong path (essentially on purpose)?

When I stand before God I won't have any defense for myself.
Zobel
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AG
This almost suggests it doesn't matter what you do then.
ramblin_ag02
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Couple thoughts:

First, reading through some early Christian writings makes it hard for me to accept that the Apostles handed down a single uniform worship style. There was a very wide variety of Christian worship and belief. Many of these were heretical, but even in the second century we see differences between East and West for example. To me, it seems that both Catholic churches over time have progressively defined orthodoxy and orthopraxy more rigidly, so what was once acceptable belief and practice is now heterodox. In my humble opinion, if you want to look for the reason for schisms and the continual splitting of churches, that is it. And we Protestants are just as intolerant of variant worship as either group of Catholics.

Secondly, I would also agree with the OP that my Baptist style worship service probably bears little resemblence to the Early Church. I would exempt home services from that though. I think our home services very much capture the Spirit of those early home services mentioned by Paul. However, our formal service is done with a spirit of reverence, worship and fellowship, and we often see God providing grace to those who do their best in their ignorance.

Lastly, I would contest the idea that Apostolic succesion is the only way to have validity. After all, who made Paul an Apostle in the first place? He wasn't ordained by other men, but by Jesus himself. I see the succession issue as similar to the priest/prophet system in the Old Testament. The priests were an unbroken succession of Aaronites who ministered to God in a very strict way under a very strict set of rules. These were predictable, unchanging, and inflexible. Then there were prophets. Samuel and Elijah are both great examples if this. Neither was an Aaronite or a priest, but both offered sacrifices. This was not permitted under Levitical law! Elijah even offered a sacrifice in a high place dedicated to another God miles and miles from the officially sanctioned sacrifices of the Temple! But God approved of then both anyway. My point is that consistency, predictibility, and proscribed practice are great, necessary, and holy. But God is not limited by such things, and sometimes He will color outside the lines to accomplish His purpose
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Zobel
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AG
Evidence for variance in apostolic directives other than the date of Pascha?

I doubt your baptist church practices are like the early church. The early church was a Eucharistic church, centered around the sacrifice of the Eucharist, presided over by a bishop.

Here's an article about just that.
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/onbehalfofall/the-eucharistic-liturgy-in-ancient-house-churches/

St Paul was approved by the Apostles. He wasn't just taken at his word as a messenger of Christ.

Prophets came filled with the spirit of God. We all have that same Spirit; we are all Elijah's and Samuels. Just as the OT describes them as God's "Christs" we are His Christs, all. God colors outside the lines but not outside of His Church. There is no scriptural support for this position. There is only one way to God and that is through Christ. And there is only one way to join with Christ and that is baptism. And being joined in baptism is being joined to the body of Christ which is the church. The scriptures are clear on this.
Zobel
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AG
Put another way. The prophets called out the apostasy of the Jews over and over again. The justify the outside-the-church view with the OT example, you'd have to say the church apostasized.

And, the Sanhedrin approved which prophets were real or not (whether their prophecy was scripture). So even then we have an analog in the OT structure of an authorized body approving.
AgLiving06
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tehmackdaddy said:

AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

AgLiving06 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

k2aggie07 said:

The scriptures don't speak for themselves. They require interpretation.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit cannot speak to me through the Scriptures? That's what I mean by "reach".

If I use this logic, the Mormonism and Jehovah Witness can all be justified as "the Holy Spirit speaking to them through Scriptures" right?

Where's the line in your opinion?

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses DO use that as justification, but it doesn't have anything to do with me.


That doesn't concern you? That the Church Jesus started is so vague that anybody can go offtrack through their estimation of what the Holy Spirit is telling them?
That is the nature of the beast that is free will. L. Ron Hubbard is quoted as stating the best way to make money is to start a religion...and then he started a religion, and people actually follow it.

It doesn't make them correct.

So what if you've been completely wrong and Mormonism is correct? You're satisfied that the God you worshipped led you down the wrong path (essentially on purpose)?

When I stand before God I won't have any defense for myself.

I feel like you have to be a Calvinist because what you describe as a God is kind of scary.
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Zobel
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AG
I just got done with church so I haven't had time by you do realize items 3 and 4 in your list are an appeal to the church right? And item 5 is completely subjective...?
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Zobel
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AG
What orthodoxy? which churches?
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Sq16Aggie2006
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JJMt said:

I suppose the majority and mainstream, and as defined and limited by the universally acknowledged scriptures.

You've not answered my questions above. You are would be more comfortable being an offensive coordinator than a defensive, I suspect.
Zobel
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AG
Hold off on spiking the football counselor I am not home from church yet.
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Faithful Ag
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K2 - I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts and I appreciate the effort you put into them. You are very knowledgeable, well researched, and you represent the faith well in your discussions. Thank you for insight and please continue bringing such great value to the the board.

I will continue to mostly lurk. With that being said I have a few questions/points for our protestant friend...

Quote:

From brief researching, it seems that the common Protestant tests for NT canonicity today can be summarized as follows:

1. Was the book written by an apostle or a close associate of an apostle?
2. Was the book written during the apostolic era?



how are we to know who wrote the book in question (and when) without relying on the testimony and the tradition of the men of the church in those days? By who's authority would we know the writings were authentic? This is where apostolic succession comes into play.

It seems to me that anyone who claims the Bible to be their only authority must first submit and concede to the idea that (like it or not) there was some sort of visible and hierarchical church and the first decades and centuries of Christianity. The next question should be what happened to that church? Did that church cease to exist once the so called Consensus of inspired writings became clear? I believe this church can be clearly seen from the days of Jesus through the acts of the apostles and beyond to the present.

Quote:


3. Orthodoxy - does the book contradict the faith as set forth in the undisputed books? If so, then it's not canonical.

I think this is an accurate expression of how Catholics and EO believers view the Bible and how the Bible fits into the proper context of its role in the church and in the faith.

The issue protestants have to come to grips with is the fact that the church, with its leaders bishops priests and deacons etc., along with The apostolic practices and traditions that the church was taught from the apostles existed before the writings came into existence. Furthermore the Bible is not and was not intended to be the sole, all-inclusive, standalone authority for believers.

Because of the promises and assurances that Jesus gave to his church that the Holy Spirit would guide over it at the gates of hell will not prevail against it, we can have faith in the truth that is the word of God in the Bible. God used fallible men to do his infallible work. The same theory applies to our church today... despite being full of fallible people, we know that there can be only one truth and that God wants us to know the truth.
Quote:


4. Universal church recognition - was the book acknowledged universally, or at least by the greater part, of the catholic (small c catholic) church?

Instead of saying small c catholic you could just say Christian Church, since no historical distinction can be made. If I am wrong, please tell me when the big C Catholic Church was founded.
Quote:


5. Was the work inspired? (i.e., not all writings of the apostles were necessarily inspired. For example, if we were to find some of the lost letters of Paul, they would not automatically be added to the canon).

As K2 alluded...this is completely subjective. How can YOU conclude with any level of certainty or confidence that the Bible you use is in fact the authentic and inerrant Word of God? Not everything Paul wrote was preserved, and every word he was not automatically granted the status of inspired. Who are you, and who were they to decide??

You yourself have said that you cannot and will not place your trust in men or their traditions... I fail to see how you can square the two. Fallible men were involved throughout the process. The significant difference is that theyhad the authority and the protection of the Holy Spirit to guide them and to make such a judgement.

You have not made a sufficient case to support your foundation. Like it or not you are placing your trust in men...you just have no idea who those men are.
Faithful Ag
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One more thing I'd add... so much of these discussions focus on how the infallible word of God came to us. What good is an infallible book without an infallible interpretation and understanding of that book?

Zobel
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AG
Ok, the plethora of questions.

1. Which church councils do you believe made the canon the canon? Is it the same councils as your RCC friends, or different councils?

As I've said, none. There has never been a formal conciliar statement about what is and isn't by the Orthodox Church. We use the scriptures we use because they are testified by the church, including fathers, continual use, liturgical use, etc. to be trustworthy and to contain the truth.

2. What did the councils rely upon to reach their decision? Was it entirely divine revelation during the council, or something else or additional?

Not relevant with regard to canon, see above. However, every council addressed a heresy, and the response to heretical views was always supported by and expressed through scripture. Theology, true philosophy, is using the powers of the mind, cleansed by God, to express ineffable truths. Worldly philosophy is using the power of the mind for the same purpose. This us why given the same piece of information (printed words on a page) different people express different opinions.

3. What was the status of the New Testament prior to the councils? Were the books non-inspired, non-canonical? Were Christians wrong in relying upon the books of the NT prior to the councils?

Again, you're fundamentally missing what councils are and what they do. See my post above about Dallas and brick houses. The councils don't create anything, they only say what is and isn't already a correct teaching.

4. So you would agree that if church tradition conflicts with scripture, scripture is conclusive? What is your take on the previous RCC tradition of selling indulgences, or of the church selling positions of cardinals and bishops to the highest bidder or passing those positions down from father to son?

Saying church tradition conflicts with scripture is a null, because scripture is tradition and tradition contains scripture. As I quoted Bishop Auxentios on the previous page "Scripture conveys Tradition, just as Tradition reflects all that Scripture is."

My take is that those are sinful acts. Both of these were addressed by the canons of the council of Chalcedon in 451 AD. Again, this doesn't mean that before the canon it wasn't wrong. It just means the council made a definitive statement about it.
Quote:

If any Bishop should ordain for money, and put to sale a grace which cannot be sold, and for money ordain a bishop, or chorepiscopus, or presbyters, or deacons, or any other of those who are counted among the clergy; or if through lust of gain he should nominate for money a steward, or advocate, or prosmonarius, or any one whatever who is on the roll of the Church, let him who is convicted of this forfeit his own rank; and let him who is ordained be nothing profited by the purchased ordination or promotion; but let him be removed from the dignity or charge he has obtained for money. And if any one should be found negotiating such shameful and unlawful transactions, let him also, if he is a clergyman, be deposed from his rank, and if he is a layman or monk, let him be anathematized.

5. If any body that calls itself a church is incorrect, then that makes Christ a liar by all Christians?
No, that's not what I said. Christ said He was to establish a church and the gates of hell would not prevail. If that church has not prevailed, then we make Christ a liar. If that church apostasized, or disappeared for several centuries, or whatever other claims a protestant sect may make, then it isn't the church. It must be pure and undefiled, forever, always. The Church is the repository of the Truth, it is the Body of Christ.

6. RCC vs Orthodoxy statement
My view on the Roman church has been expressed several times. I believe they basically embraced an error of papal supremacy leading to a multitude of additional errors -- including the seeds of the Reformation. In this regard, the "standard" for binding tradition is no longer by them. They view that the pope's decrees supersede council canons, ecumenical or otherwise. Obviously I don't agree. But this isn't an either : or problem, just because they have an unsupportable doctrine doesn't make all of their doctrine wrong.

7. The Church of Christ makes the exact same claim. You also note in other posts that the heresies today are the same as always. Does that tradition make them correct? Absolutely not, because they violate the one standard we all agree upon, and that is the Word of God.
The Church of Christ may make the claim all they want to. The fact is they were founded in the late 1800s and can in no way trace their tradition continuously to the apostles. Their claim relies on an ellipsis view: the church ... now. This violates what I addressed in item 5.

Heresies aren't wrong because they violate scripture, they're wrong because what they say isn't true. Scripture isn't the source of Truth, it witnesses to the Truth. Christ is the Truth. You're putting the root of your belief structure in the wrong place. And, every single heretic quoted scripture as St Vincent of Lerins famously noted (I linked it above).

8. Re: Early Church as reflected in the scriptures
The early church as reflected in the scriptures didn't appeal to the new testament because the NT didn't exist when those books were written. The written gospels are all dated to ~70-100 AD. St Paul was likely dead before the first gospel was written. However, we do have copious evidence of the Church as reflected by patristic writings from around the same time as the scriptures (the Didache ~80-100 AD, St Ignatius in 108 AD, St Justin in 150 AD, St Irenaeus in 180 AD, St Hippolytus in 215 AD, etc etc etc).

Your analogy about Spanish vs american attorneys is flawed, because what you're (hopefully) attempting to suggest is that your "legal system" is the original one. I would hope you would presume that you were citing original legal precedents, not ones with a defined start date some 17 centuries after the founding of "the law". On the other hand, I gladly claim the Apostles and the fathers as part of the same faith I practice today, with a continuous unbroken adherence to the same "system".

9. About bibles being in one book.
Here's a random article I found about the subject. A quote: "Before the 13th century, however, the Bible as a physical object was very different from its modern counterpart. Bibles could be assembled in any order, incorporate only some of the books thought necessary to a Bible today, and even include added "non-biblical" texts completely unfamiliar to the modern reader." So perhaps my dating it to the printing press was incorrect; regardless, I think medieval times is a bit late for the bible-in-a-book concept.

10. And what is the EO position on the apocryphal texts? The early church fathers appear to have been divided. Is their opinion controlling or is a later decision by a RCC church council controlling?
Apocryphal texts are useful for teaching but are not Holy Scripture, i.e., are not to be read in Church or considered to be authoritative. This is a consistent teaching by the fathers.

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tehmackdaddy
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AG
k2aggie07 said:

This almost suggests it doesn't matter what you do then.

If you're planning on approaching the throne with a list of accomplishments then you definitely believe differently than me, which is: the standard for entrance into heaven is perfection, and anything short of that is absolute failure.

My church asks: why should you be let into heaven? My response: "Through nothing of my own, but through my faith in Christ - which is itself a gift from God - who paid the debt of my sin with His death and was raised again so that I might live."

Also, a few "Romans Road" verses:
3:23
5:8
6:23
10:9-10

So not that it doesn't matter what I do, but no matter what I do I have no defense.
swimmerbabe11
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A Biblical book did not become authentic because the church accepted it; the church accepted it because it was authentic and commended itself to the church as an inspired. We believe that the church's role in deciding the canon was passive and in submission to the will of God. God led the church to recognize and preserve certain writings as His Word because they speak with prophetic and apostolic authority and are the vehicles of divine power calling sinners to repentance and to faith in the Christ to whom they bear witness.
Zobel
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Quote:

We do know who wrote the book in question by relying on the testimony and tradition of the early church fathers, in part. But that does not lead to apostolic succession or hierarchical church. We rely on historical records for all kinds of other historical information, none of which leads to those conclusions.
So we believe them when they say that St John, or St Paul wrote these things...but we assume they're liars and heretics when they tell us the things that St John or St Paul taught them? The historical record doesn't lead to a hierarchical church? My goodness man. The mental contortions are kind of impressive.

Quote:

I would rephrase the question to what happened to the early church. My guess is that it got corrupted, as all human institutions from Adam have been corrupted. The Pharisees used the same arguments against Jesus that you're using against me. They relied on tradition and the organized religion to oppose Christ's teachings.
The Church is not a human institution. It is the Body of Christ, established by Christ, by God Himself. It is led, to this day, by the Holy Spirit, God Himself. You are welcome to believe in the great apostasy (i.e,. "it got corrupted") but this removes all hope from any semblance of Truth, because this means that Christ is a liar. "It got corrupted" == hell prevailed against the Church. You are perfectly describing the ellipsis view I said above.


Quote:

When do you think that the writings came into existence, and when did the church and its leadership come into existence? There's fairly incontrovertible evidence that many of the books of the NT were written within 30 years or less of Christ's death.
Yep, St Pauls letters are all dated in the 50s, and the gospels from the 50s or 70s to 100s. But we have St Clement's writings which certainly date to the first century because he died in 99. What did St Clement say about this? Bishops and apostolic succession.
Quote:

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.
As noted St Ignatius who died ten years later.

Quote:

It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who has glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience you may be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing, (1 Corinthians 1:10) and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, you may in all respects be sanctified.

These are first generation Christians, witnessed to by the apostles directly.
Quote:

As to the first point above, I have no idea when the Catholic Church was founded. My guess is that there was no specific date, but instead was a process that slowly transformed the early church into what the RCC is today. You tell me when the corruption of the RCC that was manifested in the middle ages began, and that will probably be the latest date possible.
Your mixing your concepts here. The catholic, i.e., universal Church of Christ, was founded at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was received. The Church at Rome, which became one of the Five Great Sees, was founded sometime later by Sts Peter and Paul.

Quote:

As to your second point above, I said that I do not completely understand the 5th test, but I suspect that the Church councils relied upon the same test. If that's true, then your attacks on that test are also attacks on the very Church councils on which you place your trust.
So, basically you have no idea, but you're pretty sure other people used the same assumptions as you. I see.

Zobel
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So you don't believe in free will?
 
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