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How a man can be a better man?

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Think of a woman, and add reason and accountability.

and dispensable.

Just remember, when the ship goes down, women and children get the life rafts first because men are disposable. That's why they get drafted.

Adam *needed* a woman.

According my wise, departed grandfather "A man is someone who will clean up **** when no one else will clean up ****" Sort of a "buck stops here" mentality. Nothing wrong with delegation, shared responsibility, or asking for help. But when something needs to be taken care of you "man up" and take care of it.

From the flip side, I grew up with my single mother. She's a saint, but she couldn't be my role model. My grandfather filled that role and taught me "how to be a man". I learned assertiveness, decisiveness, confidence, leadership, self-sufficiency, independence, how to stand up for myself, how to provide for others, my work ethic, handling the stress of total responsibility, sacrificing the present for the future, and "it's okay to be wrong and screw up" from my grandfather. You might start talking about stereotypes, but none of the women in my family embody those traits. They couldn't have shown me how to be the man I am, even if they wanted to. Without my grandfather I would be less of a man. Not saying women can embody any of those traits, but I've never met one that embodies all of them.

I'm sure everyone here can think about their father-figure and their mother-figure, if you were lucky enough to have both, and think of the different traits that made each who they were.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I'm sure everyone here can think about their father-figure and their mother-figure, if you were lucky enough to have both, and think of the different traits that made each who they were.

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Nope.

All such opinions are misogynist, and outdated by at least a century.

Har. Har.

I had asked my wife last night about receiving a compliment from her father vs the same compliment from her mother. She said it would have meant more coming from her mother. Perhaps our upbringings shaped how we parent, which is why our daughter couldn't care less about the gender of the one complimenting her. That, to me at least, points to there being a strong environmental influence on that issue. Of course, it's just anecdotal evidence, so take it for what it's worth.

I don't know anything about "mean more" but I think the feeling they evoke and the reaction to each is unique. I think you need reinforcement from both.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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I don't know anything about "mean more" but I think the feeling they evoke and the reaction to each is unique. I think you need reinforcement from both.

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I can see that and agree. I just don't think the reaction is really dependent on what the specific parent looks like on the outside. It kind of goes to the nature vs nurture argument. Obviously both are at play, with the question being how much for each.

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I just don't think the reaction is really dependent on what the specific parent looks like on the outside.

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Is maleness and femaleness what you look like on the outside?

The difference is maternal vs paternal.

Besides, what you are saying is that your friend is a woman on the inside. You refer to this person as a "She" (I assume at their request) Can someone be "P"aternal while presenting themselves as a female, requesting that others do so as well, and fully embracing being feminine?

swimmerbabe11 said:

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The difference is maternal vs paternal.

Besides, what you are saying is that your friend is a woman on the inside. You refer to this person as a "She" (I assume at their request) Can someone be "P"aternal while presenting themselves as a female, requesting that others do so as well, and fully embracing being feminine?

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That's a great question. I honestly don't know. I, like I assume all here, have very little experience with this so I'm trying to learn on the go. I guess it goes to what does "paternal" look like?

Also, I use female pronouns out of respect for my friend. She hasn't specifically asked, but I know she prefers it and so I try to be respectful of that. My goal is to be a friend to her and help in any way, and if using certain pronouns will keep that window open to help, then I'll do it.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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The difference is maternal vs paternal.

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I think we'll run into the same problems defining maternal and paternal as we would in trying to define the (non-biological) characteristics of a man vs the characteristics of a woman.

I suspect that you would agree that different people have different levels of maternal or paternal instincts, strengths, and weaknesses. So, can a man have some level of 'maternal' strengths and can a woman have some level of 'paternal' strengths?

kurt vonnegut said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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The difference is maternal vs paternal.

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I think we'll run into the same problems defining maternal and paternal as we would in trying to define the (non-biological) characteristics of a man vs the characteristics of a woman.

I suspect that you would agree that different people have different levels of maternal or paternal instincts, strengths, and weaknesses. So, can a man have some level of 'maternal' strengths and can a woman have some level of 'paternal' strengths?

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Absolutely.

However, this is not just about compliments coming from a hairy, burly, assertive parent versus compliments coming from a well groomed, nurturing parent. A good father or mother could frankly be either (and, with some effort, possibly both).

Something that is really important, and seems to be ignored here, is that only a father is of the gender that can procreate with his daughter. For many women, affirmation that you are sexually desirable is a very deep emotional need. For many girls, a father's affirmation in general affirms this desire to be sexually attractive in particular. The reason why the mother cannot fill that role is because she cannot "speak for" the rest of the procreation available men in the world as well as a father can, because she is not one.

Now, before we go off an anecdotes, I am not saying that this issue is the same for every family, every person, and that any particular person does or does not have a healthy self image due to their particular circumstances. However, the evidence that a father's affirmation is important to a young woman's self confidence is pretty thick, regardless of the psychological analysis that people lay out to describe why.

Frankly, Freud basically achieved academic immortality by laying this stuff out there for analysis. His work is still around because the assumptions in his models do a very good job of loosely predicting the behavior of people.

I just don't see how having a father figure that prefers to be called "her" doesn't have a high probability of mucking this subject up.

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Something that is really important, and seems to be ignored here, is that only a father is of the gender that can procreate with his daughter. For many women, affirmation that you are sexually desirable is a very deep emotional need. For many girls, a father's affirmation in general affirms this desire to be sexually attractive in particular. The reason why the mother cannot fill that role is because she cannot "speak for" the rest of the procreation available men in the world as well as a father can, because she is not one.

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I think you are on to something here. But I think a woman's father provides someone who is capable of procreating with her, has no desire to do so, and still provides affection. The key is non-sexual affection from a clearly male figure. I think lack of a father figure, or an abusive one, makes it difficult for a woman to separate sexual and non-sexual affection coming from men. Sexual affection is usually selfish, and non-sexual affection is usually unselfish, and someone who can't tell the difference is going to have a really hard time with relationships.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Something that is really important, and seems to be ignored here, is that only a father is of the gender that can procreate with his daughter. For many women, affirmation that you are sexually desirable is a very deep emotional need. For many girls, a father's affirmation in general affirms this desire to be sexually attractive in particular. The reason why the mother cannot fill that role is because she cannot "speak for" the rest of the procreation available men in the world as well as a father can, because she is not one.

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I think you are on to something here. But I think a woman's father provides someone who is capable of procreating with her, has no desire to do so, and still provides affection. The key is non-sexual affection from a clearly male figure. I think lack of a father figure, or an abusive one, makes it difficult for a woman to separate sexual and non-sexual affection coming from men. Sexual affection is usually selfish, and non-sexual affection is usually unselfish, and someone who can't tell the difference is going to have a really hard time with relationships.

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Yeah. Basically.

But the reason why Dad qualifies to play that role for girls is because he is a male.

This is not something that I just made up. Pretty extensive study on this subject.

I just got a little creeped out by "Dad's affection is different because he can procreate with her". Thought that needed a little context

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I just got a little creeped out by "Dad's affection is different because he can procreate with her". Thought that needed a little context

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I'm glad you did. I knew what Buster was driving at, but the quote above made me a bit uncomfortable too.

BusterAg said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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The difference is maternal vs paternal.

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I think we'll run into the same problems defining maternal and paternal as we would in trying to define the (non-biological) characteristics of a man vs the characteristics of a woman.

I suspect that you would agree that different people have different levels of maternal or paternal instincts, strengths, and weaknesses. So, can a man have some level of 'maternal' strengths and can a woman have some level of 'paternal' strengths?

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Absolutely.

However, this is not just about compliments coming from a hairy, burly, assertive parent versus compliments coming from a well groomed, nurturing parent. A good father or mother could frankly be either (and, with some effort, possibly both).

Something that is really important, and seems to be ignored here, is that only a father is of the gender that can procreate with his daughter. For many women, affirmation that you are sexually desirable is a very deep emotional need. For many girls, a father's affirmation in general affirms this desire to be sexually attractive in particular. The reason why the mother cannot fill that role is because she cannot "speak for" the rest of the procreation available men in the world as well as a father can, because she is not one.

Now, before we go off an anecdotes, I am not saying that this issue is the same for every family, every person, and that any particular person does or does not have a healthy self image due to their particular circumstances. However, the evidence that a father's affirmation is important to a young woman's self confidence is pretty thick, regardless of the psychological analysis that people lay out to describe why.

Frankly, Freud basically achieved academic immortality by laying this stuff out there for analysis. His work is still around because the assumptions in his models do a very good job of loosely predicting the behavior of people.

I just don't see how having a father figure that prefers to be called "her" doesn't have a high probability of mucking this subject up.

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That makes sense. Great post.

BTW, I'm sure you all may be aware because it's created quite the stir, but National Geographic has a special issue this month discussing gender issues. I got it last night and have read through some of it. Very informative, especially with regards to the science of it all. Also, this issue doesn't only deal with gender identity issues, but the views on gender and gender roles of 9 yr olds around the world, "rites of passage" for boys around the world.

I'd highly recommend.

Hi RetiredAg, before the fatherhood conversation started, you were talking about being a man/woman, or presenting as a man/woman, or living as a man/woman. Are all of these different or the same - being, presenting, living? Can you explain further what they mean - admittedly you said it was hard to do.

Notice who is missing

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Notice who is missing

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Yeah, I pointed that out to my wife. Such an odd omission to make. I had seen, at least in the previews on the internet, a cover with Avery Jackson (the 9 yr old transgender girl). Looked for that cover specifically because the omission on this cover.

Create Account said:

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Hi RetiredAg, before the fatherhood conversation started, you were talking about being a man/woman, or presenting as a man/woman, or living as a man/woman. Are all of these different or the same - being, presenting, living? Can you explain further what they mean - admittedly you said it was hard to do.

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I think there's a slight difference between presenting vs living as a man/woman. To me, at least, I see "presenting" as something done at a moment in time, and not necessarily something that's 24/7. Take my friend for example. She lives as a man, but if they go out on a date where she is being herself, then while they are out, she is "presenting" as a woman. "Living" I see as someone who has transitioned and lives every day as a woman or man.

As for "being", a lot of that has to do with whether or not you see sex and gender as the same thing, or more specifically, if you see gender as binary and tied to genetics vs seeing gender as being on a spectrum.

I point it out because what androgeny and feminism does is try to kill femininity.

A major trend and style company that I used for work published a trend brief with this as the cover the other day



Its almost offensive because it is a man dressed in a caricature of feminine beauty. That's children's accessories and fuchsia and a gold grill. What is genderless about that? Feminism/androgeny kill feminine beauty and dress it up as 'more powerful' as though women have none unless they pretend to be men.

Sorry, thats a derail..just a slight rant I have.

RetiredAg said:

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Create Account said:

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Hi RetiredAg, before the fatherhood conversation started, you were talking about being a man/woman, or presenting as a man/woman, or living as a man/woman. Are all of these different or the same - being, presenting, living? Can you explain further what they mean - admittedly you said it was hard to do.

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I think there's a slight difference between presenting vs living as a man/woman. To me, at least, I see "presenting" as something done at a moment in time, and not necessarily something that's 24/7. Take my friend for example. She lives as a man, but if they go out on a date where she is being herself, then while they are out, she is "presenting" as a woman. "Living" I see as someone who has transitioned and lives every day as a woman or man.

As for "being", a lot of that has to do with whether or not you see sex and gender as the same thing, or more specifically, if you see gender as binary and tied to genetics vs seeing gender as being on a spectrum.

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I see sex as binary based on reproduction - male and female. Gender is the properties of male and female which is the point of my OP. What does "being" mean based on your views?

As far as "presenting", do you mean dress, hair style, make up, etc? I think it's interesting that we as a society can identify a transgender person precisely because of our understanding of masculinity and femininity with respect to these things.

Is "living" = sexual organs that have been removed or added? Is that what you mean by "transitioned"? I'm guessing they don't have to be functioning since I don't think we are there yet scientifically.

That cover, with the child, from what I've seen as become a huge topic of dissent on what age a child should have the license to make these types of decisions.

Meanwhile in Virginia, we have the bathroom bill happening and they wrote in it that schools will have to inform the parents of children who try to transition at school. Opponents of the bill are raging against this and saying that it endangers the kids...which leads to a whole different rant of mine.

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Its almost offensive because it is a man dressed in a caricature of feminine beauty.

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This is a very good observation.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I just got a little creeped out by "Dad's affection is different because he can procreate with her". Thought that needed a little context

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There is a difference between "he can procreate with her" and "he is of the gender that she can procreate with."

Frankly, it is kind of creepy and icky to even think about as an adult, but it makes perfect sense that kids are going to learn a lot about their sexuality from their parents.

If you read Freud, he is pretty blunt and up front about it. He specifically says that a boy unconsciously desires to replace his father as the sexual mate of his mother. I'm not sure if I would go that far, but the general idea that the relationship between girls and father figures is usually very important due to specifically to gender issues is very strong.

Thanks. I will likely pick this up.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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I point it out because what androgeny and feminism does is try to kill femininity.

A major trend and style company that I used for work published a trend brief with this as the cover the other day



Its almost offensive because it is a man dressed in a caricature of feminine beauty. That's children's accessories and fuchsia and a gold grill. What is genderless about that? Feminism/androgeny kill feminine beauty and dress it up as 'more powerful' as though women have none unless they pretend to be men.

Sorry, thats a derail..just a slight rant I have.

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Understandable rant. I've noticed a lot of women are offended at recent announcements of men as new models for places like Cover Girl. I get that these men are probably highly skilled at makeup, but I could see how women could be offended by it.

It's funny that you critique feminism as trying to kill femininity, because I've heard the same critique about feminism trying to kill masculinity. I think it's dangerous, though, to make a blanket statement about feminism because there are countless women that consider themselves feminist because they truly just want equality among the sexes. I see a lot of Christian feminists that are like this. They aren't wanting to attack masculinity or femininity, but inequality.

Yes, and there are several movements of "feminism." The old school feminists (my grandmother) would be in an uproar over the photo swimmerbabe11 posted for the precise reasons she made - it admits that that's what femininity looks like.

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I see sex as binary based on reproduction - male and female. Gender is the properties of male and female which is the point of my OP. What does "being" mean based on your views?

As far as "presenting", do you mean dress, hair style, make up, etc? I think it's interesting that we as a society can identify a transgender person precisely because of our understanding of masculinity and femininity with respect to these things.

Is "living" = sexual organs that have been removed or added? Is that what you mean by "transitioned"? I'm guessing they don't have to be functioning since I don't think we are there yet scientifically.

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I'm not sure how else I can explain it to you. This seems like a minor thing to get hung up on. As for "society can identify a transgender person precisely because of our understanding of masculinity and femininity", I'd disagree. Assuming you live in a major city, I'd wager you walk past transgender people daily without having a clue.

Create Account said:

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Yes, and there are several movements of "feminism." The old school feminists (my grandmother) would be in an uproar over the photo swimmerbabe11 posted for the precise reasons she made - it admits that that's what femininity looks like.

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Yes, which is why I think it's dangerous to generalize about "feminism".

Opposite. That's not what femininity looks like. That's what a child in dress up clothes looks like.

Current feminism kills femininity in the way that it says "We don't need men because we can become men!" which totally destroys all the wonderful traits of womanhood.

RetiredAg said:

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I see sex as binary based on reproduction - male and female. Gender is the properties of male and female which is the point of my OP. What does "being" mean based on your views?

As far as "presenting", do you mean dress, hair style, make up, etc? I think it's interesting that we as a society can identify a transgender person precisely because of our understanding of masculinity and femininity with respect to these things.

Is "living" = sexual organs that have been removed or added? Is that what you mean by "transitioned"? I'm guessing they don't have to be functioning since I don't think we are there yet scientifically.

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I'm not sure how else I can explain it to you. This seems like a minor thing to get hung up on. As for "society can identify a transgender person precisely because of our understanding of masculinity and femininity", I'd disagree. Assuming you live in a major city, I'd wager you walk past transgender people daily without having a clue.

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It is not a minor thing, it is the crux of my OP - what are the properties of maleness and femaleness. What makes a man a man? How can he be a better man? What makes a woman a woman? How can she be a better woman? What properties make them different? If a person was convinced they should be a man - what would they do? If they were convinced they should be a woman - what would they do?

Not easy questions, but they are questions. I think the answers are "obvious", but as you said, not easy to explain. Not minor either. They are fundamental.

Presenting as a woman = ?
Living as a woman = ?
Being a woman = ?