How a man can be a better man?

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Sad that the other thread was locked just because someone was done contributing to it. I'd like to continue the conversation.

BusterAg said:

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I guess my question is, what does RetiredAg's friend need to do to no longer be a man? Assuming his affirmation remains the same, when does it cease being "fatherly" affirmation? Obviously I said earlier he should strive to be more manly, not less. What does that look like? What can he do to be more of a man, and not a woman?
Again, a lot of this is in the sub-conscious processing and emotional development, with a whole host of Oedipus issues, etc. I'm not sure we know the answer to your question, precisely, though, as this phenomenon of fathers changing genders and remaining as part of the family is quite new.

If you believe that Freud was on the right track (which he often was), simply being a man that other women (who like men) might find sexually attractive in some way is probably enough. Masculine is masculine, and boys and girls know it when they see it. Simply be a man, and love and affirm your daughters. That's it.

I can't imagine that changing your name to a girls name, and asking to be called "her" wouldn't confuse this process quite a bit.


That makes sense. I don't really have a problem with "simply being a man." It comes naturally to me. RetiredAg's friend, obviously not. It would probably help to give him some practical steps. Some homosexuals can begin to desire the opposite sex with some help. Others cannot, but at least they have an option to abstain (practically). But a person who desires to be the opposite sex (transsexuals) must be guided to "act like" their sex. You can't simply abstain from being either male or female. It's an either/or, in my opinion. So what are practical steps a man like his friend can take to be a better man?
PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

Sad that the other thread was locked just because someone was done contributing to it.
It wasn't that I was done participating in it. It was the increase in the number of trollish comments that I wanted to avoid.


Quote:

That makes sense. I don't really have a problem with "simply being a man." It comes naturally to me. RetiredAg's friend, obviously not. It would probably help to give him some practical steps. Some homosexuals can begin to desire the opposite sex with some help. Others cannot, but at least they have an option to abstain (practically). But a person who desires to be the opposite sex (transsexuals) must be guided to "act like" their sex. You can't simply abstain from being either male or female. It's an either/or, in my opinion. So what are practical steps a man like his friend can take to be a better man?
What does a man "act like"? Because you'd never even consider that my friend struggles with gender identity if you were to meet her. She's spent the better part of 3 decades trying to "act like a man", which is why the depression has spiraled out of control for her.

I've asked this question before when the topic of "manhood" or "masculinity" comes up. What are these traits of manhood that are unique only to men? How is it defined? Is it mannerisms? Is it how they look on the outside? Or is it something within...those internal character traits?

There was an excellent TED Talk on this from Joe Ehrmann called Be A Man.
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Quote:

What are these traits of manhood that are unique only to men? How is it defined? Is it mannerisms? Is it how they look on the outside? Or is it something within...those internal character traits?
Yes, these are my questions.

And troll comments can be flagged for staff to remove at the bottom of each post. No need to request to lock an entire thread.
swimmerbabe11
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This person doesn't want to leave their wife nor quit fathering the children....nor has any intent to go through the operation.

So what does it mean to quit "acting"?
PacifistAg
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Create Account said:


Quote:

What are these traits of manhood that are unique only to men? How is it defined? Is it mannerisms? Is it how they look on the outside? Or is it something within...those internal character traits?
Yes, these are my questions.

And troll comments can be flagged for staff to remove at the bottom of each post. No need to request to lock an entire thread.
Well, staff could have said no to my request. I appreciate that they didn't though. You were still free to do exactly as you did and start another thread. No harm...no foul.
PacifistAg
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But a person who desires to be the opposite sex (transsexuals) must be guided to "act like" their sex. You can't simply abstain from being either male or female. It's an either/or, in my opinion. So what are practical steps a man like his friend can take to be a better man?
Well, you ask what steps can be taken to "be a better man". How do you even define "better man"? What would be "better man" in your view? It's hard to say what steps should be taken to reach a desired outcome when we don't even know what outcome you are looking for.

On the surface, I imagine my friend "acts" just as "manly" as any guy here. That doesn't help her torment though. How do you define "manhood" or "masculinity"?
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RetiredAg said:


Quote:

But a person who desires to be the opposite sex (transsexuals) must be guided to "act like" their sex. You can't simply abstain from being either male or female. It's an either/or, in my opinion. So what are practical steps a man like his friend can take to be a better man?
Well, you ask what steps can be taken to "be a better man". How do you even define "better man"? What would be "better man" in your view? It's hard to say what steps should be taken to reach a desired outcome when we don't even know what outcome you are looking for.

On the surface, I imagine my friend "acts" just as "manly" as any guy here. That doesn't help her torment though. How do you define "manhood" or "masculinity"?
I don't. Hence, my OP. I know there is such a thing as man and woman. And like BusterAg said, it's "obvious." But not to all. So what is it, I wonder?

I asked in the other thread, what does your friend need to do to no longer be a man? Or, what does he need to do to be a woman?
BusterAg
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RetiredAg said:


What does a man "act like"? Because you'd never even consider that my friend struggles with gender identity if you were to meet her. She's spent the better part of 3 decades trying to "act like a man", which is why the depression has spiraled out of control for her.

I've asked this question before when the topic of "manhood" or "masculinity" comes up. What are these traits of manhood that are unique only to men? How is it defined? Is it mannerisms? Is it how they look on the outside? Or is it something within...those internal character traits?

There was an excellent TED Talk on this from Joe Ehrmann called Be A Man.

None of what Joe says in this talk, about affirming feelings, taking responsibility, is inherently feminine. I would say that his tone / message is pretty authoritative and combative. He is calling us out to get in touch with out emotions. Challenging us to accept responsibility. A lot of what he is doing is more "masculine" in nature.

Let me ask the question back. If Joe told his daughter that she was valuable, important, beautiful, attractive, and had many redeeming qualities as a woman, do you think that it would have the same impact as if Joe's wife said the same thing? My opinion: no. Why not: because Joe is a man, and most daughters are pre-wired to want to find a man to have kids with some day.

Look, part of being a man is related to procreation and sex. Part of being a woman is about procreation and sex. The relationship between a father figure and a daughter as the little girl wades through this age is important to her self-esteem and confidence. The reasons for this are less logical than they are sub-conscious and emotional.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

I asked in the other thread, what does your friend need to do to no longer be a man? Or, what does he need to do to be a woman?
Well, I guess it depends on whether or not you consider sex and gender to be the same thing. I can't really speak for her and what exactly it will take for her. If I were in that situation, I would imagine my answer would be to live daily as a woman. To be on the outside how I felt on the inside.

But, is this thread about my friend and her issue specifically, or more geared towards the subject of masculinity and how it's defined by society?
BusterAg
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Create Account said:

That makes sense. I don't really have a problem with "simply being a man." It comes naturally to me. RetiredAg's friend, obviously not. It would probably help to give him some practical steps. Some homosexuals can begin to desire the opposite sex with some help. Others cannot, but at least they have an option to abstain (practically). But a person who desires to be the opposite sex (transsexuals) must be guided to "act like" their sex. You can't simply abstain from being either male or female. It's an either/or, in my opinion. So what are practical steps a man like his friend can take to be a better man?
My reading is that most of this is little related to how you act. It is more related to how people react to you.

I would say that "being a better man" requires only two things, really:

1) Acknowledge that you are a man.
2) Take responsibility for being a father.

That's pretty much it.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

If Joe told his daughter that she was valuable, important, beautiful, attractive, and had many redeeming qualities as a woman, do you think that it would have the same impact as if Joe's wife said the same thing? My opinion: no. Why not: because Joe is a man, and most daughters are pre-wired to want to find a man to have kids with some day.
My opinion, it wouldn't matter to my daughter whether I said those things or my wife did.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

1) Acknowledge that you are a man.

2) Take responsibility for being a father.
Okay, what's #2 mean? Also, I have seen plenty of men that check both of those boxes, but are "men" that I'd never want my son to emulate.
BusterAg
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RetiredAg said:


Quote:

If Joe told his daughter that she was valuable, important, beautiful, attractive, and had many redeeming qualities as a woman, do you think that it would have the same impact as if Joe's wife said the same thing? My opinion: no. Why not: because Joe is a man, and most daughters are pre-wired to want to find a man to have kids with some day.
My opinion, it wouldn't matter to my daughter whether I said those things or my wife did.

You do realize that there is a pretty large body of scientific evidence that contradicts your viewpoint here? Or maybe it is just that you believe that your situation is an outlier, due to your family dynamic?
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RetiredAg said:

Quote:

I asked in the other thread, what does your friend need to do to no longer be a man? Or, what does he need to do to be a woman?
Well, I guess it depends on whether or not you consider sex and gender to be the same thing. I can't really speak for her and what exactly it will take for her. If I were in that situation, I would imagine my answer would be to live daily as a woman. To be on the outside how I felt on the inside.

But, is this thread about my friend and her issue specifically, or more geared towards the subject of masculinity and how it's defined by society?
No, I don't think society has a coherent definition of male and female. Or at least I think they do, but can't express it. That's the point of this thread. To express what all of us already know. There is male and female. What does it mean? What does it mean to "live daily as a woman"? What does it mean to "live daily as a man"? What does it mean to "be on the outside"?
BusterAg
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RetiredAg said:


Quote:

1) Acknowledge that you are a man.

2) Take responsibility for being a father.
Okay, what's #2 mean? Also, I have seen plenty of men that check both of those boxes, but are "men" that I'd never want my son to emulate.

Easy-peasy church answer: the right man for your sons to emulate is Jesus, right?

You are conflating being a better person / Christian with being a father. I'd call that a distraction.
PacifistAg
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BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:


Quote:

If Joe told his daughter that she was valuable, important, beautiful, attractive, and had many redeeming qualities as a woman, do you think that it would have the same impact as if Joe's wife said the same thing? My opinion: no. Why not: because Joe is a man, and most daughters are pre-wired to want to find a man to have kids with some day.
My opinion, it wouldn't matter to my daughter whether I said those things or my wife did.

You do realize that there is a pretty large body of scientific evidence that contradicts your viewpoint here? Or maybe it is just that you believe that your situation is an outlier, due to your family dynamic?
You do realize that I'm simply addressing the question from my personal perspective. But perhaps it's a result of having an amazingly strong and Godly wife that my daughter doesn't care about the genitalia or appearance of the one complimenting her.
PacifistAg
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BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:


Quote:

1) Acknowledge that you are a man.

2) Take responsibility for being a father.
Okay, what's #2 mean? Also, I have seen plenty of men that check both of those boxes, but are "men" that I'd never want my son to emulate.

Easy-peasy church answer: the right man for your sons to emulate is Jesus, right?

You are conflating being a better person / Christian with being a father. I'd call that a distraction.
I'm not conflating. I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about. What's "take responsibility for being a father" mean? What does it look like? Is it tied, in any way, to the clothes you wear or the way you present in public? Is it tied to genitalia? What do you mean in #2.

I've seen many "acknowledge they are a man" and "take responsibility for being a father", but that doesn't make them a "better man". They were still pretty sorry men.
BusterAg
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RetiredAg said:

BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:


Quote:

If Joe told his daughter that she was valuable, important, beautiful, attractive, and had many redeeming qualities as a woman, do you think that it would have the same impact as if Joe's wife said the same thing? My opinion: no. Why not: because Joe is a man, and most daughters are pre-wired to want to find a man to have kids with some day.
My opinion, it wouldn't matter to my daughter whether I said those things or my wife did.

You do realize that there is a pretty large body of scientific evidence that contradicts your viewpoint here? Or maybe it is just that you believe that your situation is an outlier, due to your family dynamic?
You do realize that I'm simply addressing the question from my personal perspective. But perhaps it's a result of having an amazingly strong and Godly wife that my daughter doesn't care about the genitalia or appearance of the one complimenting her.
God bless good wives.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

That's the point of this thread. To express what all of us already know. There is male and female.
Where do intersex people fall in this?


Quote:

What does it mean? What does it mean to "live daily as a woman"? What does it mean to "live daily as a man"? What does it mean to "be on the outside"?
When I talk about "living daily as a woman", I'm talking about presenting oneself as a woman.
PacifistAg
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BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:

BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:


Quote:

If Joe told his daughter that she was valuable, important, beautiful, attractive, and had many redeeming qualities as a woman, do you think that it would have the same impact as if Joe's wife said the same thing? My opinion: no. Why not: because Joe is a man, and most daughters are pre-wired to want to find a man to have kids with some day.
My opinion, it wouldn't matter to my daughter whether I said those things or my wife did.

You do realize that there is a pretty large body of scientific evidence that contradicts your viewpoint here? Or maybe it is just that you believe that your situation is an outlier, due to your family dynamic?
You do realize that I'm simply addressing the question from my personal perspective. But perhaps it's a result of having an amazingly strong and Godly wife that my daughter doesn't care about the genitalia or appearance of the one complimenting her.
God bless good wives.
Indeed. I certainly outkicked my coverage with her.
BusterAg
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RetiredAg said:

BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:


Quote:

If Joe told his daughter that she was valuable, important, beautiful, attractive, and had many redeeming qualities as a woman, do you think that it would have the same impact as if Joe's wife said the same thing? My opinion: no. Why not: because Joe is a man, and most daughters are pre-wired to want to find a man to have kids with some day.
My opinion, it wouldn't matter to my daughter whether I said those things or my wife did.

You do realize that there is a pretty large body of scientific evidence that contradicts your viewpoint here? Or maybe it is just that you believe that your situation is an outlier, due to your family dynamic?
You do realize that I'm simply addressing the question from my personal perspective. But perhaps it's a result of having an amazingly strong and Godly wife that my daughter doesn't care about the genitalia or appearance of the one complimenting her.
The truth is that your daughter will likely size up her future boyfriends and suitors against a backdrop that stems from her relationship with you. Not so much her mom.

Guys are much the same way with their moms. It's just human nature.
BusterAg
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RetiredAg said:


When I talk about "living daily as a woman", I'm talking about presenting oneself as a woman.

I anticipate it is more about being acknowledge by other people as a woman.
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RetiredAg said:


Quote:

That's the point of this thread. To express what all of us already know. There is male and female.
Where do intersex people fall in this?


Quote:

What does it mean? What does it mean to "live daily as a woman"? What does it mean to "live daily as a man"? What does it mean to "be on the outside"?
When I talk about "living daily as a woman", I'm talking about presenting oneself as a woman.
I'm not sure where intersex people fall. What does it mean to present oneself as a woman? Or man?
PacifistAg
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BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:

BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:


Quote:

If Joe told his daughter that she was valuable, important, beautiful, attractive, and had many redeeming qualities as a woman, do you think that it would have the same impact as if Joe's wife said the same thing? My opinion: no. Why not: because Joe is a man, and most daughters are pre-wired to want to find a man to have kids with some day.
My opinion, it wouldn't matter to my daughter whether I said those things or my wife did.

You do realize that there is a pretty large body of scientific evidence that contradicts your viewpoint here? Or maybe it is just that you believe that your situation is an outlier, due to your family dynamic?
You do realize that I'm simply addressing the question from my personal perspective. But perhaps it's a result of having an amazingly strong and Godly wife that my daughter doesn't care about the genitalia or appearance of the one complimenting her.
The truth is that your daughter will likely size up her future boyfriends and suitors against a backdrop that stems from her relationship with you. Not so much her mom.

Guys are much the same way with their moms. It's just human nature.
Perhaps. Then again, she could be a lesbian for all I know. Perhaps I'm not the best to comment on this because of my upbringing and the cultish church I grew up in that promoted such distorted views on manhood and womanhood.
PacifistAg
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Create Account said:

RetiredAg said:


Quote:

That's the point of this thread. To express what all of us already know. There is male and female.
Where do intersex people fall in this?


Quote:

What does it mean? What does it mean to "live daily as a woman"? What does it mean to "live daily as a man"? What does it mean to "be on the outside"?
When I talk about "living daily as a woman", I'm talking about presenting oneself as a woman.
I'm not sure where intersex people fall. What does it mean to present oneself as a woman? Or man?
It means to present onself as a woman or a man. Kind of like if you present yourself to the world as a slob means you look like a slob to others.

But, getting back to the intersex point. I use it because it's clear that there are people that aren't "male or female". So saying it's "what all of us already know" is inaccurate.
PacifistAg
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BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:


When I talk about "living daily as a woman", I'm talking about presenting oneself as a woman.

I anticipate it is more about being acknowledge by other people as a woman.
I would disagree. My interactions with this community have shown me it's not about whether others perceive them as being a woman. "Passability" is not the issue.
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Ok, intersex people are something different. Presenting yourself as a woman or man means to present oneself as a woman or a man? That doesn't make any sense. Well, it makes perfect sense in that A=A, but doesn't really answer the question.
PacifistAg
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But, I think we run the danger of getting bogged down in the issue of transgenderism on this thread. First, before delving into that, I would imagine we need to know what "being a man" actually entails. What does that look like? I've asked this on several threads in the past, and I know that Created asked in the OP.

May I make a suggestion? Before going down this rabbit trail related to transgenderism, let's focus on defining masculinity, manhood, etc before addressing the rest.
BusterAg
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RetiredAg said:

BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:


When I talk about "living daily as a woman", I'm talking about presenting oneself as a woman.

I anticipate it is more about being acknowledge by other people as a woman.
I would disagree. My interactions with this community have shown me it's not about whether others perceive them as being a woman. "Passability" is not the issue.
"Passability" and acknowledgement are very different things.

Pretty sure that trans women hate it when you call them "dude" and would prefer to be called ma'am.
PacifistAg
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Create Account said:

Ok, intersex people are something different. Presenting yourself as a woman or man means to present oneself as a woman or a man? That doesn't make any sense. Well, it makes perfect sense in that A=A, but doesn't really answer the question.
Sorry, but I don't see how you are confused with "presenting as a woman". It seems obvious to me. I'm not sure how to explain it. It's living day-to-day life as a woman.
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RetiredAg said:

Create Account said:

Ok, intersex people are something different. Presenting yourself as a woman or man means to present oneself as a woman or a man? That doesn't make any sense. Well, it makes perfect sense in that A=A, but doesn't really answer the question.
Sorry, but I don't see how you are confused with "presenting as a woman". It seems obvious to me. I'm not sure how to explain it. It's living day-to-day life as a woman.
I agree it's obvious and hard to explain.
swimmerbabe11
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RetiredAg said:


Quote:

If Joe told his daughter that she was valuable, important, beautiful, attractive, and had many redeeming qualities as a woman, do you think that it would have the same impact as if Joe's wife said the same thing? My opinion: no. Why not: because Joe is a man, and most daughters are pre-wired to want to find a man to have kids with some day.
My opinion, it wouldn't matter to my daughter whether I said those things or my wife did.


My opinion...as a daughter and female...it is a huge distinction.
PacifistAg
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BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:

BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:


When I talk about "living daily as a woman", I'm talking about presenting oneself as a woman.

I anticipate it is more about being acknowledge by other people as a woman.
I would disagree. My interactions with this community have shown me it's not about whether others perceive them as being a woman. "Passability" is not the issue.
"Passability" and acknowledgement are very different things.

Pretty sure that trans women hate it when you call them "dude" and would prefer to be called ma'am.
True, but whether others acknowledge it or not is not "what it's about". Yes, they may get upset, but acknowledgment from others isn't the "focus" from my experience.
BusterAg
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RetiredAg said:

May I make a suggestion? Before going down this rabbit trail related to transgenderism, let's focus on defining masculinity, manhood, etc before addressing the rest.
Any definition of masculinity is going to involve a collection of generalization, stereotypes, and other such things.

However, that doesn't mean the term has no meaning.

One scientific approach: men have more testosterone in their body chemistry than females. Testosterone is highly correlated with competitive and protective behaviors. Therefore, it is logical to say that, in general, men have more motivation to be competitive and physically protective than women.

Then there are brain differences related to analytical processing, spacial awareness, and probably others that we are still learning about.

Finally biological differences related to other senses, such as color vision and smells.

Yes, the definition has cultural influences. But, things can be on a scale of being masculine and feminine, and those comparisons are not meaningless.
swimmerbabe11
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BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:

BusterAg said:

RetiredAg said:


Quote:

If Joe told his daughter that she was valuable, important, beautiful, attractive, and had many redeeming qualities as a woman, do you think that it would have the same impact as if Joe's wife said the same thing? My opinion: no. Why not: because Joe is a man, and most daughters are pre-wired to want to find a man to have kids with some day.
My opinion, it wouldn't matter to my daughter whether I said those things or my wife did.

You do realize that there is a pretty large body of scientific evidence that contradicts your viewpoint here? Or maybe it is just that you believe that your situation is an outlier, due to your family dynamic?
You do realize that I'm simply addressing the question from my personal perspective. But perhaps it's a result of having an amazingly strong and Godly wife that my daughter doesn't care about the genitalia or appearance of the one complimenting her.
The truth is that your daughter will likely size up her future boyfriends and suitors against a backdrop that stems from her relationship with you. Not so much her mom.

Guys are much the same way with their moms. It's just human nature.

Yes, exactly.

A compliment from my dad or my brothers has a totally different synaptic response than it does from my mom. Similarly, most girl's reaction to another girl compliment is totally different than to a boy's.
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