I'm hoping this will stay civil. If you are wanting to just call people sick, or freaks, then please simply do not post on this thread. This isn't the Politics board. We know that there are transgendered individuals that post on TA, and there are certainly more than we know that struggle with issues of gender identity.

My question has to do with the compatibility of transgenderism and Christianity. I've long had an issue with the LGBT acronym simply because it lumps transgender in with them, giving the impression that it is an issue of sexual orientation. LGB are explicitly related to orientation, the T is not. We know that gender identity issues have always existed. I know several transgendered individuals and they have all said the same thing. They were always aware that they seemed to be in the wrong body. Whether this is the result of some childhood drama or something they are born with is unknown, as far as I'm aware.

Is transgenderism and Christianity compatible? Can one have a personal relationship with Christ, and still live full-time as other than their biological sex? On the surface, I would say that the answer is obviously "yes", as one can have a relationship with anyone regardless of how they present. But, I also know there are some verses that are often pointed to that deal wearing clothes of the opposite sex (oddly, they are never used to condemn women wearing men's clothes). Is living as the gender you identify with sinful? I often hear people claim it's a mental illness. If it is a mental illness, then can we call it sinful? We would never say a schizophrenic person sins by talking to the voices they hear.

So, given all that, can a theological argument be made for both sides of the issue?





***As I said, I'm hoping to avoid much of the hateful rhetoric we see on this issue when it's discussed on the board to the south. If you are a Christian, please let's remember that there are transgendered individuals here and that our responses must be grounded in love.

Quote:

---

Can one have a personal relationship with Christ, and still live full-time as other than their biological sex? On the surface, I would say that the answer is obviously "yes", as one can have a relationship with anyone regardless of how they present.

---

I wanted to elaborate on this to avoid any misunderstanding about what I'm saying. I'm not saying "everything goes". I'm saying that I don't see why one cannot love God w/ all their heart, soul and might, and love their neighbors as themselves, even while living in a way that isn't consistent with your biological sex. Which kind of leads to another point - I know many transgender people, before transitioning, really struggle with self-hate. Can one love others as themselves while they hate themselves?

I think what we do makes us who we are influences what we do makes us... etc. If a person can live in the church and not in conflict with the church, their own struggle for salvation will be fruitful. They will become the person they were made to be in Christ.

We all struggle with sins and passions. It's about what we do and who we are ... what we are becoming. Sexual sins and desires aren't special in this way.

Thanks for the reply. Follow up question: do you consider this a sexual sin, or inherently sexual in nature?

Not necessarily. I said sexual in the sense of, having to do with the sex, but also because I view homosexuality the same way.

I honk how we view ourselves can be healthy or unhealthy in both a secular and Christian way, and that the two may not always be in line with each other.

Your questions are too vague for more than that. What does living it out mean? Dressing differently? Taking a male name? Sex with the same sex? Mutilation of the body? There aren't that many ways sex affects our lives nowadays other than those, I guess?

k2aggie07 said:

---

Your questions are too vague for more than that. What does living it out mean? Dressing differently? Taking a male name? Sex with the same sex? Mutilation of the body? There aren't that many ways sex affects our lives nowadays other than those, I guess?

---

My apologies for the vagueness of the questions. I would say living one's life as the gender they identify as. I guess it may affect the answer based on if it's just presenting oneself on a certain way (born male, but dress and present oneself as female, including taking female name) vs actual body modification, ranging from hormone replacement all the way to gender reassignment surgery.

I'm asking because a very good friend of mine who truly does love Christ has struggled with gender identity issues since she was about 5 (born male). She doesn't currently live as a woman, which according to her leads to crippling depression. It was that common struggle with depression that actually led to our friendship. Her first priority is serving God, but as she's told me, the depression is becoming worse and worse. She's in counseling, but it's hard for her to find a counselor that specializes in gender identity, but from a Christian perspective. I'm at a loss about what to tell her because I don't know if it's inherently sinful. My thinking is that if the depression damages her relationship with Christ, and she's better able to follow Him as a woman, then wouldn't that be better? But, if it is inherently sinful, I don't want to give counsel that encourages sin. She's currently in a very loving marriage with her wife (at least from what we've seen on the surface), and her wife just wants her to be healthy mentally and spiritually.

It's such a tough situation to witness. Thanks for your input.

Ok so, were talking about a genetic man? An XY? Because that matters, I think... in cases of chromosomal disorders etc.

I'm not a therapist or a doctor or a priest. Just a guy. These are my opinions.

I'm not sure him living as a female is going to actually benefit him. I don't struggle with this so I can't imagine what he goes through, but I have struggled with depression in the past. There are a couple of things there. If he's really depressed, that's a chemical issue that may have a situational trigger but really may not be related to anything in particular. That is to say, if he's clinically depressed now, living as a female may not help. It's difficult -- it may well make it worse. If he's just obsessed / sad / unhappy I don't think indulging what amounts to an alternate life or alternative fantasy is going to be beneficial.

From a Christian perspective, if he is a "woman" then he can't be married to a woman. Hard stop. I can't imagine any priest in my faith endorsing bodily mutilation (and in my opinion that includes the purposes of vanity such as elective cosmetic surgery). And I would be extremely skeptical of the spiritual benefit of hormone therapy or other mind-altering drugs for anything other the treatment of a medical disease.

I will pray for your friend and his wife.

k2aggie07 said:

---

I will pray for your friend and his wife.

---

Thank you for this and your response in general.

Quote:

---

I think the best way to be healthy mentally and physically is to live as your biological gender.

---

What if that's not the case for everyone? Clearly there are plenty of people that live far more mentally healthy after transitioning.

Quote:

---

Breaking that covenant is for sure a sin and living as a woman is sinful against your wife and kids.

---

She's not broken the covenant. And I don't see how it's sinful against the wife given she's supportive. The way she sees it, it's still the same person regardless of what they look like on the outside.

The question, though, that she's asking is more if this is something that's a salvational issue. Can one still walk with Christ and live as the opposite sex? I can see the argument that it could be considered a lie, which is sinful. She's always going to be transgendered, the question is is it sinful to alleviate the depression to live as she believes she is inside? They've both talked about how much better it is for her mentally when she's presenting as a woman. But is it one of those things that's sinful regardless of the help it may provide?

Also, please don't take my response as combative. I'm really just trying to get a better grasp on this issue from a theological/spiritual perspective so I can offer godly guidance to a close friend that's really struggling.

k2aggie07 said:

---

And if feeling "better" and being "happy" are spiritual red herrings? What then? All sins feel good in the moment. Happiness is not the short path to God's will.

---

They could be. But my question is whether it's inherently sinful?

Beyond my paygrade. But I think it comes from an unhealthy self image, which is not from God. God loves us as we are in perfection, as we existed as concepts of His before we were born.

Back to the premise, is transgender and Christianity compatible?

All sin and fall short of the Glory of God. Your friend should be encouraged to follow Christ wherever that leads. As we often see God will lead us to go against our own desires. Sin is often the result of me following these desires.

But Christ freely gives Himself to those who believe. Thank goodness because I've been a Christian for 15 years and I'm still a rotten person often.

k2aggie07 said:

---

And if feeling "better" and being "happy" are spiritual red herrings? What then? All sins feel good in the moment. Happiness is not the short path to God's will.

---

I think this hits the nail on the head. What is our purpose in God's plan? Is it to be happy or to serve Him? What if those two things conflict? And are feelings how we know we're in God's plan? We know we'll face challenges do we not?

This is why I harp on feelings constantly. If a schizophrenic has two personalities that want to get married, do you address the problem by performing the ceremony? Does their happiness resolve the issue of have mental illness? Or do you treat the illness? If someone is suicidal do we tell them to follow their feelings or treat them? Why is sex and attraction so special in our society that it should be treated differently?

Last night I was reading St Clement of Alexandria and he comments that the only reason for the differences between men and women are sexual (reproductive) in nature, and in the heavenly state this will cease, because we will no longer be different; salvation is the same for all. You asked if I thought this was sexual - frankly, with regard to our faith I can't see why anything else would matter. In Christ there is no different between male and female, that difference exists only in how we relate to each other here -- which should be the same unless sexuality is involved.

So the question becomes - if the stress of being male or female isn't coming from the church (the church doesn't see sex, I mean) then it must be coming from the world or from the self.

If it's a sin, it will be caused by one of the seven "root" vices or passions (what the west calls the deadly sins, orthodoxy recognizes as the prime sources of sin): pride, anger, lust, envy, gluttony, greed, and sloth. St. John Cassian is the usual source for this list, and he actually includes an eighth - despondency, dejection, or melancholy.

If we will find sin in this matter, it could be pride - the desire to be different or noticed. It could be anger, anger at God or others for how they are treated. It could be lust, the desire could be rooted in a sexual sin. Envy of the opposite sex. But perhaps the most likely here is the sin caused by despondency.*

St John wrote of despondency as follows:

Quote:

---

29. Sorrow and despondency. In our fifth struggle, we are faced with having to deflect the arrows of all-consuming sorrow, which, if they conquered us, would prevent us from seeing God, plunge our soul from the heights of its worthy stature, weaken and crush us. Sorrow will not allow us to pray with the necessary heartfelt animation, nor read the Holy books (a means of spiritual therapy), nor work diligently, nor be at peace and affable with people. Having taken away from us all powers of reasoning, sorrow will make us impatient and cantankerous, agitate our heart and make our soul appear inane and gloomy, crushing it with destructive depression.

29. Sometimes, this sickness is begotten from some type of passion: anger, lust or desire to become rich. At other times, without any apparent reason but through the actions of the cunning enemy, we are suddenly overwhelmed with such sorrow that we alter our attitude toward even our dearest individuals, so that anything they say to us, we regard as inappropriate and superfluous, unable to respond to them politely as our heart is filled with bitterness.

29. There is another, most frightful aspect of sorrow, which does not instill into the sinner an intention to change the lifestyle, but a destructive depression. It didn't allow Cain to repent after he murdered his brother, and forced a depressed Judas to hang himself after his betrayal.

29. The sorrow of this world is extremely complainant, impatient, cruel, obstinate and leads toward destructive depression. Having overwhelmed a person, it upsets him, distracts him from prayer, from every redeeming activity and from any act of repentance.

29. We can conquer ruinous sorrow if we try to enliven our soul with visions of future joy. In this way, we will be able to overcome the various forms of sorrow emanating from anger, from suffering losses, from having been offended, from spiritual disorders and that sorrow which brings us to depression. Being joyous in our vision of future blessings and remaining in this disposition, we will not lose heart when we experience unfortunate circumstances, nor exalt ourselves when we are happy considering our circumstances to be worthless and temporary

---

Here is a good article on some patristics commentaries on despondency. http://www.pravmir.com/depression-and-despondency/

*I want to comment a bit on the eastern vs western idea of sin. Sin in patristic psychology is not solely action oriented but is often described asa disease that distorts our lives and souls and self image. The cure for sin is spiritual medicine: Christ and grace. This disease expresses from passions, which are like cancers that grow in us and enslave our wills. Being a slave to a passion is a cause for pity and mercy, not for disgust. And they take care and effort to cleanse from the soul. I find this very different from the more juridical concept of sin prevalent in the west (i.e. ation-forgiveness oriented rather than being-cure) even if practically speaking it is only a difference in terminology.

NM misread

Just watchlisting this. The last time I posted on this board looking for a church for a transfer friend I was attacked, so will be staying out of the theology of it

It's not a sin to be a male, and it's not a sin to be a female. So why would it be a sin to change from one to the other? I doubt you'd hang on to your genitals in the afterlife anyways so it seems to be rather moot.

k2aggie07 said:

---

You didn't read carefully. It's a passion, something that produces sin, not a sin itself. I also am certain you didn't read the article. Lazy drive-by posting.

---

I did read the article. It makes no serious acknowledgement of depression as an illness rooted in brain chemistry rather than just a "passion." It also suggests self-help cures rather than getting a trained therapist's help or possible pharmacological assistance (unless the article is for trained therapists? the audience for this is a little vague). The only thing I can figure is that he isn't actually referring to real depression, especially a major depressive disorder or episode, but rather temporary bouts of "the blues."

Unless the author deals with chronic major depression, I doubt he fully understands it, no matter how much research he's done on the topic. And while he makes a couple throwaway lines in one direction or another, his overall point is clear. The idea that depression qualifies as a "passion" suggests the entire structure is fundamentally flawed without a full comprehension of the level of immutability in behavior.

Ag_of_08 said:

---

Just watchlisting this. The last time I posted on this board looking for a church for a transfer friend I was attacked, so will be staying out of the theology of it

---

First, I'm sorry that you were attacked. I'm going that this thread can be handled in mature and respectful way. I think we've been able to avoid many of the hateful trolls up to this point. Second, I think it's clear that it's an issue that is in this grey area. Personally, I am leaning towards that transitioning for my friend isn't inherently sinful. If sin is involved, it's more of an internal thought process issue, if that makes sense. Now, I think the sin I see most commonly around this issue isn't the transitioning, but the lack of love shown towards those that struggle with gender identity.

But I think with anything, we need to be on guard with our hearts. What i mean is, for example, it's okay to buy a nice car. It's not okay to buy a nice car because you are envious of your neighbor's car, or you're wanting it as a status symbol. If transitioning helps the depression, her wife and children are supportive, and she places her focus on Christ and draws closer to Him, then transition. Perhaps she was born this way in order to be a Godly witness to others struggling with gender identity. Maybe not, but I do know that teens and children that struggle with this need to not be condemned but loved. They need to not be rejected by the church, because they will gladly be embraced by the more sexualized elements of this community, which will only draw them further from Christ.

It is a tough issue for the church because I think it's been incorrectly viewed as a sexual issue, and also as we learn more about gender vs sex, we need to realize that maybe our preconceptions are flawed.

Thanks for everyone's input so far. I had a conversation with my friend last night and aggressive said it was helpful. Her wife just wants her to be mentally and spiritually strong. She doesn't care what she looks like on the outside, because she loves the person. We ended in prayer and I think that's what the focus is going to be on....prayer. She's not going to move forward until she's sure that her relationship with Christ is solid. To her, that is the most important thing. If she can transition and walk with Christ, then she will.

Seamaster said:

---

As Pope Francis said, Transgenderism is a denial of the creator.

---

Only the body counts? What value is the mind in that formula?

To the OP, My 2 cents:

Point #1 Everyone is different, has unique gifts & challenges in life. We all mess up and fall short and sin. Physically- We see some folks are born with birth defects, Albinos and Hermaphrodites. There are also mental conditions people have (Kleptomania, Schizophrenia). This is a small percentage of society. Note: Transgenders- folks confused- mind does not match their DNA- make up only .2% of the population.

Point #2- Everyone is Equal BUT we are Not the same. We should treat everyone with love and respect but also Men and women are different. We think and act differently. Men- much more agressive in nature- Testosterone Note: unitended consequences of the new bathroom laws- is letting all males in. It is not the .2% of the Transgenders who are the problem it is 50% of the population- the rest of the males.

Point #3 Follow the rules- loving guide rails, that help us do the right things, live the right way.The church is correct follow the laws of the church. To help us do the right things. Clear to see everything we want to do in life, is not always good for us. (Johnny Manziel) Note: find it interesting as a society we celebrate- woman of the year! - Bruce Jenner - leaving his wife and kids (divorce).

Final Point- Understand we are to Love (God and Neighbor). Pray to God, build that relationship with Jesus. Fill up that empty hole in our heart that can only be filled by God= Love.(St. Augustine) Note: Find it interesting, the high suicide rate of Trans after surgery (after the get what they think they want).

That "study" you're citing in your last point is not accurate.

And a man going into the women's restroom to peep is still committing a serious crime.

Dr. Watson said:

---

Seamaster said:

---

As Pope Francis said, Transgenderism is a denial of the creator.

---

Only the body counts? What value is the mind in that formula?

---

Why do we treat schizophrenia, kleptomania, If the mind dominates? Answer-we recognize it is not normal.

Note: LGBT- is a complex issue, there is not a one size fits all answer. Thus prayer, love and God are required.

Dr. Watson said:

---

That "study" you're citing in your last point is not accurate.

And a man going into the women's restroom to peep is still committing a serious crime.

---

Do not understand both comments. please clarify.

The only issue with the relationship between a transgender person and God and those who aren't transgender making assumptions about it.