Buzzfeed vs. Chip and Joanna

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BusterAg
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In reply to Zobel • 9:33a, 12/8/16
AG
k2aggie07 said:
As long as you're willing to own that you're basing your self worth on other peoples judgment of this one thing, that's fine. I'd prefer to look at the whole picture. You're forcing me to render judgment on you by focusing on one (small) piece. Your sexual proclivities do not define you. No one's do - or should. And if they do, that's a problem in and of itself (homosexual, heterosexual or otherwise).
I would further this.

You (BB, not k2, replied to the wrong post) are allowing my stance on the acceptability of your sexual proclivities to define who I am as a person, in your mind. If I don't agree with you on this, I must be a bad person, or at least bad enough that you don't want to hang out with me.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to BusterAg • 9:45a, 12/8/16
AG

Quote:
You (BB, not k2, replied to the wrong post) are allowing my stance on the acceptability of your sexual proclivities to define who I am as a person, in your mind. If I don't agree with you on this, I must be a bad person, or at least bad enough that you don't want to hang out with me.
I don't think it makes you a bad person. You seem fine. I still wouldn't want to hang out with you. Gay people are the only group I can think of who are expected to be friends with people who oppose their rights.
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BusterAg
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In reply to Sq16Aggie2006 • 9:50a, 12/8/16
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Sq16Aggie2006 said:
Aggrad08 said:
The real impact has been described above. Actual marriages which provided actual benefits to society, have had their institutional definition expanded to include other marriages which do not offer these same benefits; and cannot by design offer these same benefits. You've actually lead me to change my argument and confirm that society as a whole has been harmed; and not just people with traditional marriages.
This is actually a reasoned approach.

The reality is that children that are raised by both their biological parents have better life outcomes than those that are not. And, marriage, being a lifelong commitment to a person who is going to change and develop and grow, is hard, sometimes harder than others. We should be celebrating those couples who choose to stay together and raise productive kids as the heros that they are.

However, as a society, we have chosen to give preference to the celebration of individualism, and celebrate the fact that people who are not really in a place to do the above are great people, too. We have emphasized that to the extent that we want to say that homosexual marriages are just as important, just as great, as traditional heterosexual marriages that focus on the sanctity of the nuclear family.

Honestly, it is my opinion that this choice has hurt us. I would prefer that we celebrate the responsibility of adults to commit to a nuclear family over the individual right for adults to choose not to do this.

There is nothing irrational, or hateful, or mean spirited or ugly about this position. I'm not telling you to stop being gay. I just value the nuclear family, and the good that the sanctity of this brings to society, a lot more than you.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to BusterAg • 9:56a, 12/8/16
AG

Quote:
Honestly, if you want to be gay, that is fine with me.
This is tolerance, not approval. I'm happy you tolerate people like me, just stop saying that you "approve." First off, it doesn't matter whether you do or not, and second, trying to "change gay people for the better" is not approving.



Quote:
I have a different opinion from you on whether or not tacit approval of homosexuality is good for society. It is a very reasoned and rational belief, and I will expound on my reasoning in a post or so.

What I would prefer is that people would accept that this viewpoint is rational, not bigoted, not mean-spirited, I have a right to that opinion, and that opinion should not define me as a person.
I don't think it defines you as a person. There are plenty of things that make one person not want to hang out with another person. For me, this is one of them.


Quote:
Unfortunately, you really hate that people hold the belief that homosexuality is bad for society.
This right here - this is not accepting. People like me are doing something bad for society. That's a pretty big thing to level at someone while expecting them to be your buddy. Again, I can't think of any other group expected to do this.


Quote:
So, you would prefer that people not express that opinion, and would like to change everyone's mind in that regard.
Express it all you want. You just don't get to do it while having a beer with me.


Quote:
You would prefer that I not teach this belief to my children, or defend this belief in my community. Your umbrage with my stance on this subject is tough enough that we couldn't be friends. This line of thinking is seen throughout our culture today, where people who hold this belief and support it are attacked.

You're not entitled to anyone's friendship, and people thinking you have a bad opinion is not an attack.


Quote:
So, while I realize that our society has decided that homosexuals are going to be celebrated, I would simply prefer if people accept the fact that I disagree that this is good for us as a culture, and allow me to have my minority viewpoint.
Have at it. Have it for the next 40 years and watch it become a more and more minority viewpoint until you're someone's crazy grandpa who is "from a different time." Just don't expect me to hang out with you while you do it.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to BusterAg • 9:58a, 12/8/16
AG

Quote:
I'm not telling you to stop being gay.
Then what are you telling me? This is bad for society and it's really important that you be able to tell that to anyone. What are gay people supposed to do? How do we live and how should society deal with us to minimize whatever damage we're doing?
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swimmerbabe11
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9:59a, 12/8/16
I think the public accomodation laws are relevant to K2's mention of acceptance not being good enough -- needing approval and agreement as well.

IMO, its pretty obvious that the same people are lobbying for gay marriage and the public accomodation laws. Similar to pro-lifers getting ultrasound bills and the like when they can't outrightly ban abortion. It moves the dial closer.

I've been very vocal about the fact that I don't think that the state should be involved in marriage at all...but fine, so we have legal marriage and the state has opened that up to two people, regardless of their demographic as long as they are human and of age. Fine, don't care...but that's not enough. The next step is to make me voice approval or disapproval, when you ask me to provide art to celebrate (cakes) or host the event...and when I say that my religion makes me uncomfortable with providing those services, to prosecute. That's when it becomes my problem.

When my pastor says that legal marriage is not the same as religious marriage and that within religious marriage, homosexuality is a sin (just as is any other sexual sin), and that puts us in danger with the law...then it becomes my problem.

You do you, but once you start requiring my involvement, then it's a problem.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:09a, 12/8/16
AG

Quote:
I think the public accomodation laws are relevant to K2's mention of acceptance not being good enough -- needing approval and agreement as well.
I guess I missed the boat where gay people were suddenly "accepted." Maybe yall are just using "accept" and "tolerate" interchangeably but they're really two very different things. If that's the case, I see K2's point, but it's not responsive to my initial comment. Advocating that someone end, minimize, or alter X trait about themselves is neither tolerant nor accepting.



Quote:
IMO, its pretty obvious that the same people are lobbying for gay marriage and the public accomodation laws. Similar to pro-lifers getting ultrasound bills and the like when they can't outrightly ban abortion. It moves the dial closer.
Fine. They're still distinct sets of laws that do distinct things. If your problem is with public accommodation laws, altering marriage laws does nothing to fix your problem. Also, in almost all cases, the PA law pre-dated the marriage law, so it can't be said that marriage equality caused the other.


Quote:
I've been very vocal about the fact that I don't think that the state should be involved in marriage at all...but fine, so we have legal marriage and the state has opened that up to two people, regardless of their demographic as long as they are human and of age. Fine, don't care...but that's not enough. The next step is to make me voice approval or disapproval,
And you're free to approve/disapprove. People are free to respond to your opinion if they don't share it.


Quote:
when you ask me to provide art to celebrate (cakes) or host the event...and when I say that my religion makes me uncomfortable with providing those services, to prosecute. That's when it becomes my problem.
Again, public accommodations. Marriage equality did not affect the baker's life. A PA law that was likely on the books when the marriage was just make-believe affected their life.


Quote:
When my pastor says that legal marriage is not the same as religious marriage and that within religious marriage, homosexuality is a sin (just as is any other sexual sin), and that puts us in danger with the law...then it becomes my problem.
What danger with the law?


Quote:
You do you, but once you start requiring my involvement, then it's a problem.
Fine. Again, this has nothing to do with marriage equality. I also find this comical coming from someone who would deny/undo my marriage because a religion I don't subscribe to doesn't like it.
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swimmerbabe11
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10:14a, 12/8/16
By your definition, I would undo all of the marriages?
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Beer Baron
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:20a, 12/8/16
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swimmerbabe11 said:
By your definition, I would undo all of the marriages?
Sorry, I just assumed and I shouldn't have. Would you not? You were opposed before it was legal, but now that it is can I keep it?
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swimmerbabe11
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10:20a, 12/8/16
I'm not sure the order really matters tbh. They are in lockstep with a common goal. In some states, PA laws came first..because those were easier to move the dial with. They prepped the state for acknowledging legal gay marriage.
In others, it was the opposite..where marriage got on the books, the next step was to force culture to change with the new law.

I so don't care about legal marriage. I do absolutely care about things that affect my church or my business. If one didn't seem to always come with the other, less people would get upset
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Beer Baron • 10:22a, 12/8/16
Beer Baron said:
swimmerbabe11 said:
By your definition, I would undo all of the marriages?
Sorry, I just assumed and I shouldn't have. Would you not? You were opposed before it was legal, but now that it is can I keep it?

I oppose government intercession in marriage. period.
I'd prefer not to register my spouse with the government. I think it is unnecessary and just another way for the government to dictate our lives. Even worse, its an avenue to dictate what happens in churches.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:23a, 12/8/16
AG
Ok, so am I allowed to keep my marriage now that it's legal.
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Beer Baron • 10:24a, 12/8/16
I suppose?
I was never in opposition of legal gay marriage any more/less than I am in opposition of legal straight marriage.
I oppose the whole legal ordeal.

It's a religious institution. Let everyone follow their faith.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:27a, 12/8/16
When has it ever been solely a religious institution?
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AGC
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In reply to Beer Baron • 10:29a, 12/8/16
AG
Does religious freedom predate PA laws?
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 10:29a, 12/8/16
When has there ever been a government that actually separated the church and the state?

The institution has always been religious...that is not changed by the fact that people used it as a poiltical/economic tool
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:31a, 12/8/16
swimmerbabe11 said:
When has there ever been a government that actually separated the church and the state?

The institution has always been religious...that is not changed by the fact that people used it as a poiltical/economic tool


How far back are you going when you say "always"? The state has always had a hand in marriage so long as there has been a state. I think assuming it's just a religious institution hides much of the history and tradition around marriage. It's also a political and social statement in many cases.
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Jim Hogg is angry
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10:32a, 12/8/16
AG
The Pew Research Center conducted a study earlier this year that concluded 57% of voting aged Americans were supportive of SSM, while 38% opposed (5% covers MOE and undecided).

The United States surpassed the 200MM mark in 2016, in terms of registered voters. 76,000,000 of these would not be supportive of SSM. It's horrific to think someone would essentially declare 76,000,000 Americans unemployable simply because they follow their conscience and adhere to the natural view of marriage.
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AGC
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 10:32a, 12/8/16
AG
Dr. Watson said:
When has it ever been solely a religious institution?


BB is on a witch hunt with his vindictive streak and being condescending, if not insulting, to swimmer. That was never the point of this line of questioning. He's going for his pound of flesh.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:32a, 12/8/16
AG

Quote:
I suppose?
I was never in opposition of legal gay marriage any more/less than I am in opposition of legal straight marriage.
I oppose the whole legal ordeal.
That's good that I'm allowed to keep it. Can I ask you this though - you mention not being any more/less opposed, which I understand and am fine with. But, given that you thought the whole legal construct was bad/wrong to begin with, what was your stance on me and my husband being granted access to this bad/wrong legal institution? In a yes/no, up/down vote, how would you have voted?
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Beer Baron • 10:37a, 12/8/16
Abstaining isn't an option? This is a gun to my head, can't leave the voting booth unless I press a button situation?

Because, abstaining in protest would be my first instinct.
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 10:37a, 12/8/16
AG
Dr. Watson said:
When has it ever been solely a religious institution?
Genesis 2.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to AGC • 10:38a, 12/8/16
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AGC said:
Does religious freedom predate PA laws?
Yeah I guess so. Also I've repeatedly said that I generally oppose such laws. I'd be fine if all of them were repealed tomorrow. I'm just pointing out that they're separate from marriage laws.
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 10:39a, 12/8/16
When have clerics of some sort not been the arbiters of the marriage?
Because, like I said, we are pretty novel in our separation of church and state.

Why do you think there is a Church of England? Because it was the only way to get permission to divorce. Even the king was limited by the church in this regard.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:39a, 12/8/16
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
Abstaining isn't an option? This is a gun to my head, can't leave the voting booth unless I press a button situation?

Because, abstaining in protest would be my first instinct.
It's certainly an option, I was just genuinely curious which way you'd vote if you had to one way or the other.
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Beer Baron • 10:40a, 12/8/16
Beer Baron said:
AGC said:
Does religious freedom predate PA laws?
Yeah I guess so. Also I've repeatedly said that I generally oppose such laws. I'd be fine if all of them were repealed tomorrow. I'm just pointing out that they're separate from marriage laws.

I think you are largely the outlier on that...are you not?
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AggieRain
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:41a, 12/8/16
AG
Quote:
I oppose government intercession in marriage. period.

I'd prefer not to register my spouse with the government. I think it is unnecessary and just another way for the government to dictate our lives. Even worse, its an avenue to dictate what happens in churches.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 10:46a, 12/8/16
AG

Quote:
I think you are largely the outlier on that...are you not?

Possibly. Honestly have no idea. At this point I think there's a very good argument to be made that while well-intentioned, they do more harm than good.
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BusterAg
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In reply to Beer Baron • 11:49a, 12/8/16
AG
Beer Baron said:
Express it all you want. You just don't get to do it while having a beer with me.
I would not intentionally do this. That would be rude. I would rather discuss the quality of the beer.

Quote:
You're not entitled to anyone's friendship, and people thinking you have a bad opinion is not an attack.
Of course not. But putting a litmus test out there that you reserve your beer consumption companionship for those that agree with you about this issue is pretty judgmental.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to BusterAg • 11:57a, 12/8/16
AG

Quote:
I would not intentionally do this. That would be rude.
You have no problem doing so here. Along with all your "bad for society" nonsense.


Quote:
Of course not. But putting a litmus test out there that you reserve your beer consumption companionship for those that agree with you about this issue is pretty judgmental.
I love this. My marriage is literally "bad for society" according to you and I'm the judgmental one for electing to hang out with people who don't think that instead of hanging out with you.
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BusterAg
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In reply to Beer Baron • 12:14p, 12/8/16
AG
Beer Baron said:

Quote:

Of course not. But putting a litmus test out there that you reserve your beer consumption companionship for those that agree with you about this issue is pretty judgmental.
I love this. My marriage is literally "bad for society" according to you and I'm the judgmental one for electing to hang out with people who don't think that instead of hanging out with you.
Well, you are the one that cannot tolerate hanging out with someone that disagrees with you about this, not me.

I would totally buy you and your husband both beers, just for the opportunity to meet the guy that married someone who argues so intelligently.
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to Beer Baron • 12:18p, 12/8/16
Hm, I'm not sure that's true. I think plenty of people hate Christianity, God, and think religion is bad all around but think Christians should still be okay with being their friends and not offended by it.

As far as I'm concerned, the way you convey your beliefs is very important. I can be friends with someone who would be happy if every church wasted away or disappeared tomorrow..as long as he's not trying to berate me and dissuade me from being a Christian every time I see him.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 12:26p, 12/8/16
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
Hm, I'm not sure that's true. I think plenty of people hate Christianity, God, and think religion is bad all around but think Christians should still be okay with being their friends and not offended by it.

As far as I'm concerned, the way you convey your beliefs is very important. I can be friends with someone who would be happy if every church wasted away or disappeared tomorrow..as long as he's not trying to berate me and dissuade me from being a Christian every time I see him.
I get that. If my views on Christianity are abhorrent to you and that's a dealbreaker for you, so be it. For some people that very well may be the case and that's fine. I wouldn't think it judgmental of them to do so when the initial problem in the relationship is coming from my end.

Some people have opinions that are dealbreakers for other people. I'm sure my black friends would get along just fine with most of my family members if they met them. I wouldn't expect them to still be friends with my family members if they knew certain opinions they hold, however.
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In reply to BusterAg • 2:15p, 12/8/16
BusterAg
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In reply to Beer Baron • 2:35p, 12/8/16
AG
Beer Baron said:

Quote:
I'm not telling you to stop being gay.
Then what are you telling me? This is bad for society and it's really important that you be able to tell that to anyone. What are gay people supposed to do? How do we live and how should society deal with us to minimize whatever damage we're doing?
Celebrate the specialness of parents staying together to raise kids together.
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