Do you believe in the Great Flood story?

45,993 Views | 412 Replies | Last: 9 yr ago by oragator
TPS_Report
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AG
quote:
What is to be made of genesis 9:11 if it's a regional flood?


I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

As noted in an earlier post, which Hebrew word for "earth" was used in this translation?

This is one of my biggest complaints about literalism among us Christians. We are , at best, reading a translation. More likely, we are reading a translation of a translation of a translation. Even more difficult, it's a translation from ancient languages. We have almost no grasp of the context involved.

It reminds me of a cheesy afternoon movie I saw one weekend where an assassin says to his client, "So you want me to draw a bead on the pigeon." In context, that means to aim a rifle at a target individual so as to shoot them dead. But without context, the phrase is complete nonsense.

What if there was a turn of phrase in ancient Hebrew where, with proper context, the word for year really means moon? What if Noah was 900 "moons" old? That would put him in his 80's. This changes things immensely. All of the sudden, what was seen as balderdash becomes very plausible.

What if the verse really reads like so: "I establish my covenant with you: Never again will your people be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy Israel (or Canaan or where ever it was said to have happened)." But we don't know because all we have is a translation.
cdhaggie07
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AG
There is a writing style in the bible where the bible makes a statement, and then it will specify that statement a short while later.

In genesis 41, it says "And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere."

Then in 42 it specifies: "And the sons of Israel went to buy grain among those who journeyed, for the famine was in the land of Canaan."

So using just the bible's internal context, we can safely say that in this instance, all the world was an expression to describe Egypt, Canaan and the surrounding area, the author wasn't implying that Chinese or native Americans also came to Egypt.

The same thing applies to the flood story. All the animals and every living thing is specified as clean beasts, unclean beasts, and fowl, plus probably some worms and other "creeping things" they were aware of at the time. That's it. No kangaroos, no penguins, etc. These are specific groups of animals that are further defined in Leviticus and the mosaic law. Noah only brought aboard these animals, and they all could have easily fit into a boat the size of the ark. Noah's flood was universal in terms of the impact on humanity that was geographically concentrated at the time based on all the context the bible provides.
SapperAg
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AG
Except there's still no evidence for such a genetic bottleneck in any animals. And no evidence for a regional flood that would have completely covered mountains.
Aggrad08
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AG
Also no evidence for shipbuilding technology capable of a boat half that size, or that a men lived hundreds of years and were still healthy enough after those hundreds of years to build a boat like that.

And let's not forget that not a single one of the other societies in the area at the time seemed to suffer any catastrophic event.
Madman
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AG
The Chinese were around before during and after the time when most Christians think the flood would have taken place. That fact alone should cause some head scratching.
commando2004
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AG
quote:
Also no evidence for shipbuilding technology capable of a boat half that size

The ark wasn't really a ship, though. It had no sails, oars, rudder, or other means of navigation or propulsion. All it needed to do was float.
Amazing Moves
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quote:
quote:
Also no evidence for shipbuilding technology capable of a boat half that size

The ark wasn't really a ship, though. It had no sails, oars, rudder, or other means of navigation or propulsion. All it needed to do was float.
That still doesn't explain the rest of the story. I guess that water magically appeared and then disappeared as it receded? God then got rid of the geological evidence and replaced all of the animals in their native lands. After a short habitation , God turbo charged their genitals and birthing capabilities. Bottleneck gone. The rest of the world was in suspended animation.
Aggrad08
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AG
quote:
The ark wasn't really a ship, though. It had no sails, oars, rudder, or other means of navigation or propulsion. All it needed to do was float
Getting something like that to float without breaking in half or leaking badly isn't as easy as it sounds. And that doesn't explain how they built it or the fact that he was hundreds of years old.
Line up and wait 18L
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I believe.
Marco Esquandolas
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AG
quote:
I believe.
What, exactly?
Line up and wait 18L
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The question as posted. I believe in the flood as described in the Bible.
Aggrad08
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AG
Is there any fact which could change your mind about that belief?
bigtatum
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Even with that style God promises to never flood the earth again, whatever that may mean to you. It's flooded countless times since then if we're talking regional floods? if we're talking an end to regional floods then God lied
cdhaggie07
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AG
quote:
Even with that style God promises to never flood the earth again, whatever that may mean to you. It's flooded countless times since then if we're talking regional floods? if we're talking an end to regional floods then God lied

He promises to never wipe out humanity to that extent with a flood ever again. Humans are now on all 7 continents, that promise has been kept.
Line up and wait 18L
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quote:
quote:


SapperAg
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AG
There have been floods from Monsoons and Cyclones and Tsunamis with far greater death tolls. And there is still no evidence for a massive regional flood like the Bible describes.
Line up and wait 18L
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TPS_Report
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AG
quote:
I believe.
Do you believe there are any mistranslations in the English versions of the Bible?
bigtatum
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quote:
quote:
Even with that style God promises to never flood the earth again, whatever that may mean to you. It's flooded countless times since then if we're talking regional floods? if we're talking an end to regional floods then God lied

He promises to never wipe out humanity to that extent with a flood ever again. Humans are now on all 7 continents, that promise has been kept.


If you say the flood is a regional event then it didn't wipe out humanity and we continue to have regional floods this promise isn't kept.
cdhaggie07
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AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
Even with that style God promises to never flood the earth again, whatever that may mean to you. It's flooded countless times since then if we're talking regional floods? if we're talking an end to regional floods then God lied

He promises to never wipe out humanity to that extent with a flood ever again. Humans are now on all 7 continents, that promise has been kept.


If you say the flood is a regional event then it didn't wipe out humanity and we continue to have regional flood this promise is kept.

The flood happened before humans spread to Europe, Asia, Australia, and the Americas.
bigtatum
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You've successfully resolved absolutely none of the conflict between the bible and reality. Now it's a local flood but all of humanity is in this locale but animals are all over the place and humans apparently can't migrate out if this local place and survive. You may have made up an interpretation that is less believable than a global flood
Aggrad08
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AG
Ignoring the obvious copying of the story from the epic of Gilgamesh, I'm not sure how you can pretend that at the time period described all mankind was on one continent or one area of one continent. The only time that was true was with africa a very long time before civilization. Noah's story comes so late in the game that man has already invented wine and domesticated many animals. I'm not sure how anyone would try an argue mankind wasn't very widespread at that time.
Amazing Moves
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Do you think this is some kind of test of faith? Is that why you keep testifying? Amen and, I believe. With out adding anything to the discussion.
Amazing Moves
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quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Even with that style God promises to never flood the earth again, whatever that may mean to you. It's flooded countless times since then if we're talking regional floods? if we're talking an end to regional floods then God lied

He promises to never wipe out humanity to that extent with a flood ever again. Humans are now on all 7 continents, that promise has been kept.


If you say the flood is a regional event then it didn't wipe out humanity and we continue to have regional flood this promise is kept.

The flood happened before humans spread to Europe, Asia, Australia, and the Americas.
What is your proof?
SapperAg
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AG
Indeed. The only event comparable to the "regional flood" hypothesis is the end of the last glacial maximum when you did have flooding that created the Black Sea and Persian Gulf. Humans were already widely spread across 6 continents.
Amazing Moves
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Indeed. The only event comparable to the "regional flood" hypothesis is the end of the last glacial maximum when you did have flooding that created the Black Sea and Persian Gulf. Humans were already widely spread across 6 continents.
How long did it take for these things to happen?
Knife_Party
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I saw some show on the History channel (take that for what it's worth) pushing the idea that a glacial damn broke and filled the Black Sea "overnight." Obviously it would take a while to fill such a large area with water, but the gist is that it was a massive single flood event that could have inspired mythical flood stories.
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Marco Esquandolas
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My sense is that there is no amount of history, archeology, or geology that could ever be marshalled to change the literalist's mind.
Amazing Moves
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Flood myths. Check it. Its a fairly small read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth
Amazing Moves
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quote:
My sense is that there is no amount of history, archeology, or geology that could ever be marshalled to change the literalist's mind.
That good ol' test of faith seed implanted by the I word. Some people refuse to test it.
Jacques
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I don't believe in a world wide flood. Or the ark such as it is described. I could believe, I suppose, a local flood inspiring the story.
commando2004
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AG
quote:
What if there was a turn of phrase in ancient Hebrew where, with proper context, the word for year really means moon? What if Noah was 900 "moons" old? That would put him in his 80's. This changes things immensely. All of the sudden, what was seen as balderdash becomes very plausible.
Interesting thought. If true, then Methuselah lived to be 78 by modern reckoning. That's certainly plausible.

But that introduces a complication with Gen. 5:21, which would imply that Enoch had a son when he was only 5 years old!
SapperAg
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I thought about that when I was trying to reconcile my faith with what science showed. Like with the Enoch example, you're left wondering when the transition to solar years occurred and why. Really, it just reads like the Greek myth about the golden, silver, and bronze ages of man. Great men, better than us in every way, lived for a long time and then died and we just aren't as cool.
 
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