One of my main problems with Islam and Christianity is the fact that God and Allah are basically gangsters writ large. Just as a thief or gangster will put a gun to your face and say, “Give me your cash or die,” God says, “Love me or suffer the consequences (eternal damnation).” I find the two morally equivalent and equally reprehensible.

If I say no to the gangster and he harms me, he is morally culpable for a heinous act. Similarly, if reject the God hypothesis and spend eternity in hellfire, isn’t God also worthy of equal scorn? Or maybe even more so because he is inflicting an infinite punishment for a finite sin?

Don't forget God set the building on fire.

tyson: says who?

... and what if He did?

[This message has been edited by Skubalon (edited 4/3/2012 9:07p).]

Is god not all knowing, all powerful and created this burning building we live in?

Yes... and?

i think tyson hits the nail on the head. God created the threatening situation, just as the gangster did. hence, both are morally responsible for any harm based upon your decision.

Skubalon,

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You make God out to be a gangster. I reject your analogy. God isn't saying to you "Believe in me or go to hell." He's saying "Believe in me and come to heaven."

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incorrect. he is saying both. you cannot simply ignore the negative side of the equation.

Well there is a criminal psychology term for people who burn down a building to rescue people. Hero complex? God complex...something like that.

Not really a respectable thing.

You reject God or Allah because you don’t like the rules? If there is such a being your opinion of his rules is worth less than nothing. That line of thinking reminds me of this guy.


[This message has been edited by csp97 (edited 4/3/2012 9:32p).]

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We created the fire when we rebelled against God. Yes He knew it would happen which is why He gave us a way out through Christ.

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...which is an exact parallel of the gangster.

n/m

[This message has been edited by Skubalon (edited 4/3/2012 9:44p).]

You hate God for enforcing consequences for certain behavior, but you have no problem doing it yourself. Funny how that works.

I suppose you could look at it that way. Or, if you didn't want to, there's plenty of reasons not to see it that way. Basically I think you can use the Bible or the Quran to reach whatever conclusion you started with (though admittedly I am much more familiar with the Bible). In the end not liking what a religion teaches is a poor reason for not believing in it, just as liking what it teaches is a poor reason for believing in it.

I think this relates to the debate at hand.

God held Adam and Eve responsible for sins they committed before they knew right from rong. How is that just? How could they know it was wrong to dis-obey before they ate from the tree of knowledge?

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How could they know it was wrong to dis-obey before they ate from the tree of knowledge?

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How did they even have the knowledge to understand what he was saying when he told them not to? I mean if they had absolutely no knowledge whatsoever, no thoughts in their heads at all, such as yourself.

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“Give me your cash or die,” God says, “Love me or suffer the consequences (eternal damnation).” I find the two morally equivalent and equally reprehensible.

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Your premise is incorrect. You have assigned heaven the value of "good" and hell the value of "bad", based on your own arbitrary definitions.

Question 1) If you have problems believing what God says is true about him (being good, etc)...then why do you accept the Christian cultural accounts of heaven and hell as accurate?

Question 2) What if heaven is just "life with God", and hell is just "life without God"...and not the cultural definitions of paradise and hellfire that we have today? Then which do you choose?

I think many of the nonbelievers don't like the concept of pain. They want no pain at all. So they think God made the world incorrectly in their eyes.

You should listen to the old Garth Brooks song the Dance. "I could of missed the pain but I would of had to miss the dance".

Look at what many famous rock band millionaires say their happiest times were? It was when they struggled, before they made it Big.

Look at marriages/ relationships you grow stronger during the tough times. I was a CT the best time was FISH year with all the hazing (pain and challenges).

Part of getting to Heaven is about the journey, the experiences we have along the way (both pleasure and pain). Life is a gift, enjoy it. What are you going to do to with your time here? Are you going to serve yourself or others (God)?



[This message has been edited by booboo91 (edited 4/4/2012 7:10a).]

Listening to Garth Brooks - now that would be Hell.

How dare you! Garth Brooks is amazing! His show at the Wynn is the best show I've ever seen.

"I find the two morally equivalent and equally reprehensible"

The problem with this statement is that the author isn't placing the god in question as a higher being or authoratative figure. To find a god morally reprehensible is to assume an equal footing with that deity. In Christian and Muslim faiths, God is a supreme being and his actions/rules/logic are not subject to criticism from lesser beings.

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"I find the two morally equivalent and equally reprehensible"

The problem with this statement is that the author isn't placing the god in question as a higher being or authoratative figure. To find a god morally reprehensible is to assume an equal footing with that deity. In Christian and Muslim faiths, God is a supreme being and his actions/rules/logic are not subject to criticism from lesser beings.

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Surely you can see why atheists don't buy this argument. You have to believe in a God you can't prove exists and you can't even question him if he does.

It's faith based and entirely unintellectual.



[This message has been edited by Tysonbam (edited 4/4/2012 9:52a).]

Best thread in a while. Keep it up OP.

The analogy in the OP fails in that robbing someone is obviously morally wrong, while worshipping and loving God is not only good, but is the highest good we could hope to achieve. The rest of this topic falls mostly into a free will debate, and that choices lead to consequences. As for damnation, I think most people have that concept wrong. Not much in the way of details is honestly known about it. The passages used are often very symbolic. But, it's fair to say it's not nearly as nice as enjoying God, and becoming more like God for eternity (nothing can compare to that anyways).

[This message has been edited by Cyprian (edited 4/4/2012 10:36a).]

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Surely you can see why atheists don't buy this argument. You have to believe in a God you can't prove exists and you can't even question him if he does.

It's faith based and entirely unintellectual.

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1) I don't entirely disagree with you, but look at it this way. Lets assume for this discussion only, that there is an all knowing and powerful God.

Honestly do you really think we humans can truly understand God?

We humans only live for a tiny bit- roughly 80 years out of Millions of Years of the Earth. We only see the world from our perspective in some neighborhood in a town in the USA? We have no way of seeing the big picture, and even if we could would we have the intellect to comprehend it?

That is why being a parent is helpful in understanding God. You can easily see young kids not understanding the big picture, all they care about is their little world. Adults explain things to them, but in very simplistic terms. And that is what I think we have here (that is why religions agree on supreme being but at some point it gets a little unclear).


2) So how do you prove their is a God? Do what Christians have said since the beginning? Read Scripture, Pray, look at the laws of the natural world. AND it takes FAITH.

3) Open your eyes, pay attention, keep earnestly seeking the truth and you will find God. This is what CS Lewis did, this is what Billions of people do each year.

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Lets assume for this discussion only, that there is an all knowing and powerful christianGod.

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Fify. Now...go.

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1) I don't entirely disagree with you, but look at it this way. Lets assume for this discussion only, that there is an all knowing and powerful God.

Honestly do you really think we humans can truly understand God?

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Considering God is always talking about us getting to know him, I don't understand why he would challenge us to get to know him, do things we can't understand, then use the cop out that we can never understand him.

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2) So how do you prove their is a God? Do what Christians have said since the beginning? Read Scripture, Pray, look at the laws of the natural world. AND it takes FAITH.

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Which isn't at all proving there is a God. If it could be proven then there would be no need for faith.

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3) Open your eyes, pay attention, keep earnestly seeking the truth and you will find God. This is what CS Lewis did, this is what Billions of people do each year.

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Well, that is effectively what atheists do. They come to the opposite conclusion. Nevermind that this statement is worthless rhetoric. Just flowery church language with no reason to believe there is any truth in it at all.

I think the most frustrating thing for Atheists is that they understand the Christian perspective but Christians seem overwhelmingly unable to look at their own faith from any other perspective.

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Well, that is effectively what atheists do. They come to the opposite conclusion. Nevermind that this statement is worthless rhetoric. Just flowery church language with no reason to believe there is any truth in it at all.

I think the most frustrating thing for Atheists is that they understand the Christian perspective but Christians seem overwhelmingly unable to look at their own faith from any other perspective.

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Question- How can you prove to someone staring at a (3-D Stereogram) that there is an image within the picture they are staring at when they do not see it?

I believe God is like those pictures you have to stare at in order to see an image within the picture (3-D Stereograms). It takes some effort. Two people can look a the same picture and see two different things.

I believe seeing God is the same way. Those who don’t want to see God (won’t) and those who do will eventually see God is everywhere in the world we live in.

I didn't make an argument for the existence of god or not. I do understand that an aetheist doesn't believe in the existence of the supreme being. However, if the author's intended audience is a Christian or Muslim, he must include attributes from the god of their faith.

Also pay attention to small miracles in your life, things that should not happen based on the odds.

Again this by itself is not proof. I think the proof of God is the straw that broke the camels back. What is significant and touching to one person, is insignificant to an other, we are all touched by God in different ways.

Have Atheist friend who just witnessed his mothers passing (and the way she died- her belief in God) and it really is moving him away from Atheism.

You saw the same thing with Steve Jobs

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Question- How can you prove to someone staring at a (3-D Stereogram) that there is an image within the picture they are staring at when they do not see it?

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First off you know the creator of the image exists and what he has hidden in the image is documented. Secondly with the right lens and filter one can demonstrably show what is in the picture.

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Also pay attention to small miracles in your life, things that should not happen based on the odds.

Again this by itself is not proof. I think the proof of God is the straw that broke the camels back. What is significant and touching to one person, is insignificant to an other, we are all touched by God in different ways.

Have Atheist friend who just witnessed his mothers passing (and the way she died- her belief in God) and it really is moving him away from Atheism.

You saw the same thing with Steve Jobs

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People who believe in anything are moving at death when they find strength there. It doesn't prove that anything they believed exists.

Atheists tend to look hard at the world and try and figure out what it means.

You seem to propose looking hard at the world for God and you will find it which is most assuredly true.

It's a documented thing called "observation bias." When you are intent on finding proof of something you weight things that support it heavily and disregard things that do not support it.

Which leads me back to one of the most fascinating things about Christians. It's a religion based on faith which means it should not be possible to prove it however Christians seem determined to invent ways to prove it.

Listening to Garth Brooks - now that would be Hell.
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I used to jam in Abilene with Ronny Dunn in the 70's. We both went to Nashville but he stayed and I left to go to grad school for psychology...me the idiot.

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Which leads me back to one of the most fascinating things about Christians. It's a religion based on faith which means it should not be possible to prove it however Christians seem determined to invent ways to prove it.

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Don't disagree with your comments.

There is always that leap (Faith) required to find God but that leap distance is different for everyone (because everyone has different cirmcumstances).

Think of the TV game show the Wheel of Fortune, where you have to guess the word as the letters are slowly filled in. Rarely on the show are all the letters filled in when the answer is given.

Analogy-The more you pray and study scriptures, the more you look at the natural world, the more small miracles you witness in your life the more letters get filled in, until you are able to make the correct answer.

My guess is for many nonbelievers they are at a stage in their life, where not many of the letters are filled in, so the answer is not clear.

Note: I also believe just like in Wheel of Fortune, some are certain they have the right answer and they don't (many Christians are like this).



[This message has been edited by booboo91 (edited 4/4/2012 11:50a).]

I didn't read the other posts so I hope I'm not repeating anything.

Here's where your analogy between God and a gangster breaks down. With the gangster, you're innocent and the gangster attacks you. With God, you have been found guilty of sinning against him.

But here's what the Bible says about it:

1) All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

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But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. - Romans 3:21-26

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2) The wages of sin is death

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But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:22-23

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3) However God sent his son, Jesus, to pay the price for us and set us right with God.

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You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. -Romans 5:6-11

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4) And all you have to do is believe that to be true. Just place your faith of salvation in the hands of God. There's nothing else you can do to earn it.

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For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10:10-13

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5) There is no other name by which we can be saved: not Allah, not Muhammed, not your own, not Joseph Smith.

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then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. Jesus is "'the stone you builders rejected,which has become the cornerstone.' Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved." -Acts 4:10-12

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