So you can't provide any evidence of your claims? Could it be that your claims are wrong?

No one here has provided evidence for or against the exodus. I'd like to see any evidence. Typically the side making a positive argument bears the burden of proof.

Actuially Aggrad08 said: "Especially considereing that the evidence against is fairly damning."

From you last post it sounds like you are now agreeing with me that, that is a pretty ridiculous claim. I mean, it would be stupid to make that claim if what you just said is true, that no one has provided any real evidence for or against.

My knowledge extends to my wife who love egyptian documentaries. I don't recall hearing anything about jews in them. I would be curious what aggrad's evidence is but the burden of proof rests with those who say it did happen.

I don’t even know what they would have been called at that point in Egypt other than foreigners. Honestly though, I don’t really care.

It’s obvious that Christians believe the bible is true by faith, and pointing to a lack of a specific type of evidence as evidence is pretty spotty.

I doubt an honest person just relying on empiricism would take a really strong position either direction. But I would never claim that he was an honest seeker of the truth. It’s pretty evident that he wills a certain result.

That’s why I think it’s even stupider for people to think that some kind of empirical evidence could appease, or change the mind of a person like that.

Anyway, so back to you. If you claim to be a Christian on one hand, and yet argue against Christianity, and the bible on the other hand, what would you call yourself?

I don't really argue one way or another. I just point out stupid arguments and bad logic. Its astounding how anyone becomes a christian with the arguments christians make on this board. You'd think there was a conspiracy to make christians look dumb. That is disconcerting because I don't like being associated with idiots.

quote:

---

There is evidence against Israelites ever being in Egypt in 2000 BC ? This is one of the stupidest arguments I have ever seen.

---

NA you think the universe is 6k years old. You have no idea how to interpret evidence or how we know anything about the past.

quote:

---

It’s hard to understand much about people from a 4000 year old archeological site, but it seems like you arguing something even more specific.

---

Well what does the bible claim? The bible makes an outstanding claim that should leave a great deal of evidence.

quote:

---

the According to Exodus 12:37-38, the Israelites numbered "about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children," plus many non-Israelites and livestock.[9] Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550.[10] The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the "mixed multitude" of non-Israelites would have numbered some 2 million people,[11] compared with an entire Egyptian population in 1250 BCE of around 3 to 3.5 million.[12] Marching ten abreast, and without accounting for livestock, they would have formed a line 150 miles long.[13]

---

So that gives you an idea of what we are talking about. The egyptians would supposedly have a slave population near equal to the egyptian population (2/3)-without ever recording a thing. They left, without any impact on the population or economy of the egyptians or the population of canaan.

This group spends 40 years in a desert that shows no signs at all of being able to support such a population, nor has it ever, and in 40 years with 2 million people no one drops so much as a bowl or spoon, leaves remains by a fire, buries their dead ect. Nothing is found despite all the searching in that desert. And it's not that we don't have any evidence at all in the desert. Localized small tribes of bedouin shepards from the period left evidence, but none of a 2 million strong migration

And the worst part of the tale is the anachronisms.

quote:

---

Several details point to a 1st millennium date for the Book of Exodus: Ezion-Geber, (one of the Stations of the Exodus), for example, dates to a period between the 8th and 6th centuries BC with possible further occupation into the 4th century BC,[22] and those place-names on the Exodus route which have been identified - Goshen, Pithom, Succoth, Ramesses and Kadesh Barnea - point to the geography of the 1st millennium rather than the 2nd.[23] Similarly, Pharaoh's fear that the Israelites might ally themselves with foreign invaders seems unlikely in the context of the late 2nd millennium, when Canaan was part of an Egyptian empire and Egypt faced no enemies in that direction, but does make sense in a 1st millennium context, when Egypt was considerably weaker and faced invasion first from the Persians and later from Seleucid Syria.[24]

---

The Bible mentions Pithom as one of the cities which was built by Jewish slave labor during the Egyptian captivity. Pithom has been found and identified, based on actual written inscriptions found at the site. The only problem is that Pithom was built by the Pharaoh Necho II, no earlier than 605 BC. Likewise jericho was a long abandoned city by the time joshua supposedly got his hands on it.

So where did the jews come from? There is no evidence that they were ever in egypt-even though if the events were real it would be near impossible to hide. Is there evidence that we always in canaan-yes.

quote:

---

The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute

---

So no egyptian pottery, no egyptian gods, no egyptian language, no egyptian anything despite 400 years of captivity. No major demographic or economic collapse in egypt no explosion of population in canaan. No new culture in canaan. And the cities that they visited the cities that they built? Well they didn't even exist. All the evidence we have from canaan is completely consistent with the jews arising slowly out of canaan and completely inconsistent with an exodus.

So why would the jews write about that? Well the bible wasn't written and compiled until much later. Just before and throughout the Babylonian captivity (see the documentary hypothesis).

Christians have been trying to ignore the demonstrable false parts and change other parts for some time. Now some even try and argue it was 600 families-not 600k men. Of course that isnt' what it says in the bible the two times its mentioned.

The Bible Unearthed by israel finklestein is a good book for the topic.

Tyson,

http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm

You obviously never once went and looked to see if there was any compiled supportive evidence…yet you talk about how dumb others look… All it took was a simple google search. Now you might say all of it is not compelling, or it’s full of errors, and argue against it and all of that like Aggrad will do, but I find that lack of effort on your part, and the lack of knowledge that there is evidence of foreigners that the Egyptian writing claims were driven out, that they were made rich, and left destruction behind...not even knowing about that is the dumb part. The writings from that time are somewhat rare, yet you earlier erroneously claimed they were plentiful. Yet you see yourself as smart, and others as stupid… People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

Aggrad,

Blah blah blah… Even if I showed you places where things you claim are true were not true, you would ignore it, and move on to something else. It’s because you are not interested in the truth. You ultimately don’t care about that. You are only interested in empowering yourself to reject God. That’s it. I could answer every single objection, but that is actually a total waste of time and would make me more foolish than you.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/11/2012 11:35p).]

I'm going to take a little bit of my time out to show just one example, I picked out to research from the drivel that Aggrad just posted.

He said this:

quote:

---

The only problem is that Pithom was built by the Pharaoh Necho II, no earlier than 605 BC.

---

This is totally wrong... Here is one site (among several) that show his statement to be totally bogus:

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/szablon.php?id=864&PHPSESSID=9fc5a8322cdefe7f4b64607b09d34530

So, cockiness, self assurance, and posturing doesn't make anyone smart, or right, or anything. Tyson thought Aggrad was smart and Christians looked stupid, but yet again he chose to be on the wrong side of things...

Yall can go back to playing, but please don't waste your time with these guys who think that being forceful and self assured equates to being right.

I am failing to see how any of that is ”evidence” of the exodus. noone of it says anything about an exodus. Funny though that the egyptians claim to havedefeated the jews at some point in canaan but never wrote about the time the jews were in egypt for a few hundred years. Surely you can see how pretending silly stuff like this equals proof of an exodus make christians look dumb and devoid of reasoning ability. Did you read your own link?

They weren't called Jews, or even Israel back then. The link makes that clear. Yet again, you didn’t read the text in the link… Yet again, calling others dumb, when you are the one that does dumb stuff, again and again… When you say you “fail to see”… I agree. You do fail to see, or hear, or understand… Someone who reads so little, understands so little, you should be more humble, and more gracious to others... Do unto others the way you would have them to unto you...

Also, I never said any of this stuff equals proof. You are putting words in my mouth. You can interpret all of that evidence in any way you want... it just so happens you have apparently chosen to interpret it on the side of disbelief that it could have agreed with the biblical record.


Sorry, I'm not going to spend any more time on this...


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/11/2012 11:50p).]

quote:

---

This title "Israel Stele" is somewhat misleading because the stele only makes a brief mention of Israel and Canaan. The next ascertained mention of "Israel" dates to the 9th century BC, found on the Mesha Stele.

The line mentioning Israel is grouped together with three other defeated states in Canaan (Gezer, Yanoam and Ashkelon) in a single stanza, beside multiple stanzas regarding his defeat of the Libyans. The line referring to Merneptah's Canaanite campaign reads:

Canaan is captive with all woe. Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized, Yanoam made nonexistent; Israel is wasted, bare of seed. [6]

The phrase "wasted, bare of seed" is formulaic, and often used of defeated nations. It implies that the store of grain of the nation in question has been destroyed, which would result in a famine the following year, incapacitating them as a military threat to Egypt.

The stela does make clear that "Israel" at this stage refers to a people or tribal confederation, the Ancient Israelites, and not a kingdom or city state, since the determinative used is that for "foreign

people", not that for "country". [9]


While the other defeated Egyptian enemies listed besides Israel in this document such as Ashkelon, Gezer and Yanoam were given the determinative for a city-state—"a throw stick plus three mountains designating a foreign country"—the hieroglyphs that refer to Israel instead employ the determinative sign used for foreign peoples: a throw stick plus a man and a woman over three vertical plural lines. This sign is typically used by the Egyptians to signify nomadic tribes without a fixed city-state, thus implying that ysr?r "Israel" was the demonym for a seminomadic or rural population at

the time the stele was created. [3]

---

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele#section_3

Care to explain how mentioning defeating the jews in canaan is evidence of an exodus?

I mean you already made me go to bibleandscience.com

where am I missing proof of an exodus?

quote:

---

Blah blah blah… Even if I showed you places where things you claim are true were not true, you would ignore it, and move on to something else.

---

NA. I made my point. You cannot contradict anything I said. You a child in a mans body. You pretend to search for truth and evidence yet you think evolution is a conspiracy theory. You are an embarrassment to Christians.

quote:

---

I could answer every single objection, but that is actually a total waste of time and would make me more foolish than you.

---

I'm trying very hard not to laugh right now. You cannot answer a single objection I raised. Not one. Just as you cannot answer a single objetion of evolution. You know nothing of evidence you are the one disinterested in the truth. You don't care that evolution is real because it terrifies you. You simply ignore it and call it junk science. You are doing the same thing here.
And to the point. None of what you showed is evidence of 2 million slaves in egypt. The hyskos were not the jews (they were conquerors not slave-don’t let facts mess up your theory though). You would know that if you didn't spend time at websites for the uneducated. Hell even the book posted by another christian admits there is no evidence for the exodus-yet NA is stupid enough to believe they were the Hyksos. Stop humiliating yourself. If you can contradict a single point I made lets here it. That site you came up with is a joke. Why is there no evidence of a massive economic collapse? Why no evidence of a massive population decrease in Egypt or increase in canaan? Why no evidence of them crossing the desert? How did they build cities which did not exist yet? Why no Egyptian cultural artifacts in canaan? Why is there evidence for their rise out of canaan?
The Hyksos NA? Surely you can do better.

dp

[This message has been edited by Aggrad08 (edited 4/12/2012 8:02a).]

Is vm_boy still around? I hope he is still here to study the material posted in this thread and learn from the debate. It shocked me when I realized the exodus didn't happen. I imagine it shocked vm_boy too.

Aggrad,

The link that I cited is not a joke. By saying so, you prove that you are not a serious intellectual, but a just God hating atheist only pretending to be honest. This is why I will not take your arguments seriously, because finding truth is not your goal.

As to Tysonbam:

You first pretended to be neutral, but then when shown potential evidence (that you first claimed didn’t exist), you appear to ignore any evidence for, always doubting it, and putting your faith in anything that would be against any of it being true. A truly honest person would see merit in all of the evidence, and not simply dismiss it wholesale.
That is the difference between an honest seeker of the truth, and someone simply committed to disproving, or not believing.

It’s a faith disposition, or in your case (And Aggrad also) an anti-faith disposition, or approach to everything. Even if you had doubts it was true, there still should be some of the evidence that make you go “hmmm…”, or that you should be willing to admit could be true, or at least corroborated in the ancient text of the bible. That is what a real scholar, or real scientist does. He is usually at least partially uncertain when looking at evidence… especially the mystery of tiny fragments of historical evidence.

Your first answer was more the right attitude, where you kind of admitted that there were no slam dunks either way… That approach will lead you more often to the truth, at least if it’s only empiricism you rely on, and not a faith/anti-faith.

That’s my point. You and Aggrad are exhibiting a faith, not a purely scientific method. Yet the typical argument is that you both would pretend that you are. While you both commit to that dishonest state, it is a waste of time to engage you, though you both might make some good empirical points.

Ultimately my position is I don’t appeal to an evidence apologetic. I deal in presupposition apologetics, because I consider it useless to argue evidence to someone who is committed to faith (an anti-faith), but dishonestly pretending to look only at evidence.



===================================

I post this from the link I gave you to show it was not a joke link:

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You'd think there was a conspiracy to make christians look dumb.
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No way, look at all the cutting and pasting that NA just did; only an intelligent Christian can do that.

NA, I looked at two of your references at random:

Bruins and Plicht. 1996. "The Exodus enigma." Nature 382 (July 18). From what I can find, this report only shows that Jericho is was in existence at a different date. It does nothing to prove or disprove the exodus.


"Some of the "revolutionary" aspects of this book are as follows:

There was no "flight" from Egypt.

Sinai was not a great mountain.

There was no "wandering in the Wilderness".

Princess Bithiah, daughter of Pharoah, was the wife of Mered, a prince of Judah . She rescued Moses from the waters.

The Israelites encamped at the mouth of the Gulf of Suez, over aganist Mt. Shomer.

They crossed the "Sea of Reeds" at this point.

They did not sojourn in the "Sinai Peninusula", but in Midian, where the Biblical Sinai is located. (Exact location unknown.)

They dwelt in the Wilderness of Sinai, east of the Wadi Araba, for 38 years.

The exodus was a land and sea operation, dependent on water transport for the migration from Egypt to Midian.


Robertson, C.C. 1990. On the Tracks of the Exodus

I found a review of this book:

"After reading this book the reader will have gained a much more intimate knowledge of the regions through which Israel moved which conforms and illuminates the Scripture record."
http://www.amazon.com/On-Track-Exodus-C-Robertson/product-reviews/0934666407
The first source here refutes the bible. The first doesn't do anything either way. I'm sure the rest are not helpful to your argument.

[This message has been edited by ShootBoyDang (edited 4/12/2012 12:40p).]

NA has no clue what he is talking about

quote:

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The link that I cited is not a joke. By saying so, you prove that you are not a serious intellectual, but a just God hating atheist only pretending to be honest.

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Says the creationist who thinks the hyksos were the jews of the OT.

[This message has been edited by Aggrad08 (edited 4/12/2012 12:45p).]

Still waiting on evidence of the exodus. Not a link about an egyptian stone referring to Jews in canaan. Certainly not a list to any book ever published about the bible and archeology.

I believe the Exodus happened. Why would the Jews make up a story like that?

Also am a young earth creationist.

Catag94 said:

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"Morally culpable" and "finite sin" are interesting terms for one who denies God.

To whom would God have to answer?

God, who created all did not bring sin into the world, however He in his infinite love and mercy is offering you a way out of the results of sin as is true to His Just nature.

And, a release from the bondage of sin while you live this life.

Is love God and love your neighbor, just too much to ask?

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Does not compute…