Apologize if this has been posted before. But it's so spot on that of course Hollywood definitely doesn't get it.

Just a specific example of a more general problem of poor, lazy, unoriginal writing.

I brought this up in a past thread. The usual EB gatekeepers got very emotional defending these "kickass" girls

I've had this conversation with my wife multiple times. I personally am not a major fan of action these days because they've largely turned them into plotless messes with minimal dialogue only serving to bridge one ridiculous over the top scene to the next.

It's even worse what they have done to female characters as the critical drinker articulates better than I can.

Furlock Bones said:

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Apologize if this has been posted before. But it's so spot on that of course Hollywood definitely doesn't get it.

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That was actually way more insightful and dead on than I thought it would be. It's definitely an over-compensation of sorts, as he mentions. And it hollows out their characters and they resonate much less with most viewers.

Was that Sebastian Gorka?

I agree it's a symptom of lazy writing and not limited to female characters. Don't just tell us they're badass, show us.

Most action heroes are shallow tropes or empty vessels. Men or women. I do think there's a notable percentage of male viewers who just don't prefer "strong" (I'd substitute loud here) female leads in media. Heck, people just complain about their voices with regularity. So, it's a tough needle to thread.

And I have no idea how that YouTube guy has a wide listenership. His cadence and voice are severely grating.

Didn't watch the full video, but bad writing is bad writing, bad characters are bad characters. Doesn't matter the gender. I noticed they threw Ray (Star Wars) on screen as a poorly written "strong female character," - Poe and Finn were just as poorly written.

Good thing Hollywood is properly appreciating and investing in their writers so all of this can get better.

…

It's not a strong female lead unless they are head scissor a man or two.

jeffk said:

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Most action heroes are shallow tropes or empty vessels. Men or women. I do think there's a notable percentage of male viewers who just don't prefer "strong" (I'd substitute loud here) female leads in media. Heck, people just complain about their voices with regularity. So, it's a tough needle to thread.

And I have no idea how that YouTube guy has a wide listenership. His cadence and voice are severely grating.

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Yet, almost all of the good classic strong female characters are loved by me and I would argue the vast majority of men. Sarah Connor, Riple (Sigourney Weaver) etc. Hell, Meryl Streep in "The River Wild" randomly comes to mind as well. Emily Blunt in Sicario is another more recent example of a well written strong female character that resonates with the audience and isn't completely unrealistic.

It kind of feels like with many modern movies, they are trying to turn these females into men, instead of strong women.

Things like Viola Davis beating that absolutely shredded beast of a male warrior at hand to hand combat in "The Woman King" is just eye-roll worthy and a gaping plot hole imo.

Hollywood went from "women are just as intelligent as men and can have merit and strength all their own" to "women are smarter, stonger, and morally superior to men" within the last 20 years. Writers aren't free to allow their Strong Female Lead to show any weakness or failing, or, worst of all, to rely upon a man's strength. 3rd Wave Feminism is a joke.

Cliff.Booth said:

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Hollywood went from "women are just as intelligent as men and can have merit and strength all their own" to "women are smarter, stonger, and morally superior to men" within the last 20 years. Writers aren't free to allow their Strong Female Lead to show any weakness or failing, or, worst of all, to rely upon a man's strength. 3rd Wave Feminism is a joke.

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yea, that's one of the major points the video makes. in doing so, the writers have thrown the entire point of storytelling out of the window.

main character struggles. has to learn or achieve something. then, overcomes prior failings.

now, it's strong female character is superior. does stuff. if she needs to learn then it's all a self actualization routine. "the power was always in me"

Charlize Theron in Atomic Blonde is the most egregious example of this. Pinning 250 lb baddies to the wall with high heels...**** off

cr06gis said:

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Charlize Theron in Atomic Blonde is the most egregious example of this. Pinning 250 lb baddies to the wall with high heels...**** off

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agree with the video in the OP.

But does a movie named "atomic blonde" really take itself seriously? I'd throw that in there with the Charlie's angels remake with Cameron Diaz…..she ain't kicking dudes butts in real life either but no one really cares cause it's just Charlie's angels….

cr06gis said:

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I brought this up in a past thread. The usual EB gatekeepers got very emotional defending these "kickass" girls

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Just wait until the first Dylan-like "woman" starts as the lead "female" role…I can almost hear the Critical Drinkers "…the message" echoing through as the entertainmentnistas self-fellate over their own enlightenment!

You list some good female characters and I definitely don't disagree with the assertion that some writers get lazy with writing female leads. I do think it's interesting that most of those you chose as good female leads can definitely be described as being more masculine than your average everyday woman. It's tough to create a female lead, especially in action movies, that isn't just woman playing a male role or a damsel in need of saving. I don't have a great answer to that. Good characters are complex and hard to write. And a lot of movies aren't actually that well written.

I actually think Black Widow is an interesting example. They wanted her to be badass but also feminine and separate her from the rest of the male heroes. So they created a fighting style for her that sort of leveled the playing field for her. Is it realistic? No, not really, but it's not implausible within that universe.

Marion in Raiders is the perfect female character.

C@LAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Marion in Raiders is the perfect female character.

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you misspelled Ripley in Aliens

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Ripley and Clarice Starling are 1a and 1b for the best female characters.

cr06gis said:

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Charlize Theron in Atomic Blonde is the most egregious example of this. Pinning 250 lb baddies to the wall with high heels...**** off

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I actually thought this film did a good job with its action sequences. Her character is physically outmuscled at multiple parts of the film and physically dismantled by her larger foes. She has to win with gadgets, guns, and utensils for the most part. If I remember correctly, some of the reviews actually complained about the severe amount of physical beating she took from male characters as a form of masculine torture porn (because of the aforementioned women are as strong as men reviewers! I also remember one that complained she hit men in the nuts too much, lol). Reviewers weren't used to seeing a woman get beaten like that and a film getting away with it. Obviously, the film isn't all-that realistic, since it's set in the John Wick universe during the Cold War, but i loved how she had to fight differently to compete. She couldn't just Wick an opponent into submission.

My big complaint about female action films is that many of the actors aren't athletic. You can fake a lot of things in movies, but you can't fake athleticism. Theron in Atomic Blonde, Weaver in Aliens, Emily Blunt in EoT, and Linda Hamilton in T2 are good examples of seriously flawed action characters who lean heavily on cunning and guile to defeat far superior opponents.

cr06gis said:

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Charlize Theron in Atomic Blonde is the most egregious example of this. Pinning 250 lb baddies to the wall with high heels...**** off

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Yeah gonna disagree on this one. She's a badass in that movie, well written character who's pissed off and capable.

Is there some suspension of disbelief required? Should she be wearing heels? (She does less than you think btw, I know the movie well.) Sure, but she's also 5-10 and physical and reasonably believable in the role.

cr06gis said:

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I brought this up in a past thread. The usual EB gatekeepers got very emotional defending these "kickass" girls

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I'd be curious to see this thread as characters like Captain Marvel and Rey are pretty universally acknowledged to be weak characters by posters here.

I enjoyed Atomic Blonde, but it's practically a superhero movie.

Aggie_Journalist said:

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Didn't watch the full video, but bad writing is bad writing, bad characters are bad characters. Doesn't matter the gender. I noticed they threw Ray (Star Wars) on screen as a poorly written "strong female character," - Poe and Finn were just as poorly written.

Good thing Hollywood is properly appreciating and investing in their writers so all of this can get better.

…

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The issue generally posited by this and many other videos is that it is not simply bad or lazy writing, it is that there is a pervasive idea within Hollywood writing circles that a strong female character is simply a female character that is hyper masculine. They take all the crap that women complain about in men, surround a female character with it, and then call her strong. It's not that they suck at writing, they just don't understand what a strong woman is in the first place because they associate strength and a strong character with masculinity. Thus, a strong woman is just a man with a vagina.

This video actually does a good job of explaining what a strong female character actually looks like in practice:

She also gets the **** kicked out of her on a couple occasions too.

fig96 said:

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cr06gis said:

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Charlize Theron in Atomic Blonde is the most egregious example of this. Pinning 250 lb baddies to the wall with high heels...**** off

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Yeah gonna disagree on this one. She's a badass in that movie, well written character who's pissed off and capable.

Is there some suspension of disbelief required? Should she be wearing heels? (She does less than you think btw, I know the movie well.) Sure, but she's also 5-10 and physical and reasonably believable in the role.

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Bruce Almighty said:

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I enjoyed Atomic Blonde, but it's practically a superhero movie.

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Don't disagree, but so are John Wick and other similar films. That in itself isn't a flaw of the movie or character.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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Aggie_Journalist said:

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Didn't watch the full video, but bad writing is bad writing, bad characters are bad characters. Doesn't matter the gender. I noticed they threw Ray (Star Wars) on screen as a poorly written "strong female character," - Poe and Finn were just as poorly written.

Good thing Hollywood is properly appreciating and investing in their writers so all of this can get better.

…

---

The issue generally posited by this and many other videos is that it is not simply bad or lazy writing, it is that there is a pervasive idea within Hollywood writing circles that a strong female character is simply a female character that is hyper masculine. They take all the crap that women complain about in men, surround a female character with it, and then call her strong. It's not that they suck at writing, they just don't understand what a strong woman is in the first place because they associate strength and a strong character with masculinity. Thus, a strong woman is just a man with a vagina.

This video actually does a good job of explaining what a strong female character actually looks like in practice:

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Just a warning...

If you have never seen Avatar: The Last Airbender, do NOT watch this video. Instead, go to Netflix and watvh the greatest animated series ever (possibly the greatest series ever). You will see firsthand how great all the characters are. The above video has mucho spoilers.

jokershady said:

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cr06gis said:

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Charlize Theron in Atomic Blonde is the most egregious example of this. Pinning 250 lb baddies to the wall with high heels...**** off

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agree with the video in the OP.

But does a movie named "atomic blonde" really take itself seriously? I'd throw that in there with the Charlie's angels remake with Cameron Diaz…..she ain't kicking dudes butts in real life either but no one really cares cause it's just Charlie's angels….

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True but she takes head and body shots from 200+ lb brutes that would cleave the head off the average man.

Over, and over, and over, again.

I like the film. It's actually pretty good. And it may not take itself too seriously but it is a serious film. But they just so overplayed that hand.

The single greatest strong female badass character in cinematic history is Ellen Ripley/Sigourney Weaver in Aliens.

Cameron absolutely nailed this. She was great in Alien but Aliens took it to another level. I was 12 when it the theater and my parents let me go even though it was rated R.

As a young, testosterone fueled, male, in the 80's, I didn't think twice about the fact that a female saved the day. Vazquez was f'ing badass too.

Ripley took control of the APC and bailed out the Marines. Later took control when some beta corporate guy and sh** young officer weren't getting it done. She wasn't a "Karen" she was just rationale and on point. She let an alpha male (Corporal Hicks) give her a quick training on the weaponry without being all "Captain Marvel" about it.

After strapping about 75 lbs on weapons and armament to her body in the elevator, on her way to save Newt, the last thing she did was kind of fix her hair which was absolute genius in reminding the audience she was a pissed off woman on a mission but still feminine.

Perfection. This was the way.

It seems that about every six months a new movie about a super ninja female warrior comes out. Usually it is an eponymous title. No thanks.

Urban Ag said:

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jokershady said:

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cr06gis said:

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Charlize Theron in Atomic Blonde is the most egregious example of this. Pinning 250 lb baddies to the wall with high heels...**** off

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agree with the video in the OP.

But does a movie named "atomic blonde" really take itself seriously? I'd throw that in there with the Charlie's angels remake with Cameron Diaz…..she ain't kicking dudes butts in real life either but no one really cares cause it's just Charlie's angels….

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True but she takes head and body shots from 200+ lb brutes that would cleave the head off the average man.

Over, and over, and over, again.

I like the film. It's actually pretty good. And it may not take itself too seriously but it is a serious film. But they just so overplayed that hand.

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I mean, John Wick gets thrown off a 20 story building and lives, gets hit by a car going 60 mph and lives, gets shot in the abdomen and continues fighting for another 20 minutes. So, in the scheme of things for that action style and universe, that's a nitpick.

This seems relevant

It all makes sense pic.twitter.com/8VPBOiHb4f

— Portal Patrol (@portal_patrol_) July 17, 2023

The best strong female character that I have seen in years is Phoenix from last years Maverick. She was strong, confident, extremely capable and at the same time beautiful, understanding and sympathetic. All of this and without the usual Hollywood BS that goes along with a strong female character. She was written as a pilot, trying to do her best, and to get selected for the mission that only a few of the worlds best pilots could execute. Not once was was there a disbelief that this character was there due to quotas, gender inclusion, or simply that we had to have a female pilot. Hats of to the writers that created this character, a character that I hope my daughter could emulate and become in the future.

JayHowdy! said:

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The best strong female character that I have seen in years is Phoenix from last years Maverick. She was strong, confident, extremely capable and at the same time beautiful, understanding and sympathetic. All of this and without the usual Hollywood BS that goes along with a strong female character. She was written as a pilot, trying to do her best, and to get selected for the mission that only a few of the worlds best pilots could execute. Not once was was there a disbelief that this character was there due to quotas, gender inclusion, or simply that we had to have a female pilot. Hats of to the writers that created this character, a character that I hope my daughter could emulate and become in the future.

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There was originally a love storyline between her and Rooster, but Cruise and Barbaro decided to cut it out for Phoenix's sake.

JayHowdy! said:

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The best strong female character that I have seen in years is Phoenix from last years Maverick. She was strong, confident, extremely capable and at the same time beautiful, understanding and sympathetic. All of this and without the usual Hollywood BS that goes along with a strong female character. She was written as a pilot, trying to do her best, and to get selected for the mission that only a few of the worlds best pilots could execute. Not once was was there a disbelief that this character was there due to quotas, gender inclusion, or simply that we had to have a female pilot. Hats of to the writers that created this character, a character that I hope my daughter could emulate and become in the future.

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I had the exact same feeling when I watched the movie. She was a competent pilot without her or the movie needing to make a "statement" about the fact she was a woman in a male dominated field or making her macho. Top Gun: Maverick got it right on so many levels.