I did not know that. Good call.

While I wholeheartedly agree with the OP, doesn't seem anyone is asking women how they view these characters.

An honorable mention of a strong woman from Silence of the Lamb was the victim in the well. The fact that she didn't just sit down there and take it. She did something about it by taking his dog hostage. I loved that about that movie.

Albatross Necklace said:

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This seems relevant

It all makes sense pic.twitter.com/8VPBOiHb4f

— Portal Patrol (@portal_patrol_) July 17, 2023

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That's a weird framing and application of the findings of the LEGO study. They found out a lot of things about gendered play, but importantly that boys were pretty quick to utilize constructed lego buildings or sets as a backdrop for play, but girls were more interested in what might be happening in the interior spaces of buildings which is why all the Friends sets have a ton of outfitted rooms and pets and stuff to help extend play sessions.

I don't know that I'd use it to explain why female heroes are often poorly written. Especially since film directing and writing are still pretty male-dominated professions.

Urban Ag said:

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The single greatest strong female badass character in cinematic history is Ellen Ripley/Sigourney Weaver in Aliens.

Cameron absolutely nailed this. She was great in Alien but Aliens took it to another level. I was 12 when it the theater and my parents let me go even though it was rated R.

As a young, testosterone fueled, male, in the 80's, I didn't think twice about the fact that a female saved the day. Vazquez was f'ing badass too.

Ripley took control of the APC and bailed out the Marines. Later took control when some beta corporate guy and sh** young officer weren't getting it done. She wasn't a "Karen" she was just rationale and on point. She let an alpha male (Corporal Hicks) give her a quick training on the weaponry without being all "Captain Marvel" about it.

After strapping about 75 lbs on weapons and armament to her body in the elevator, on her way to save Newt, the last thing she did was kind of fix her hair which was absolute genius in reminding the audience she was a pissed off woman on a mission but still feminine.

Perfection. This was the way.

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I think this is more Sigourney Weaver being amazing than James Cameron. Apparently, Cameron was pushing the crew really hard and they did not get along at all because he liked to adjust things and fix a lot of things himself, which they saw as kind of stepping on their jobs. At one point, he fired a guy (rightfully) and they walked off set. They were all basically irreplaceable, so production was stopped until Sigourney stepped in and had a sit down with Cameron and Gale Ann Hurd. She was really well liked by the cast and crew and had the clout as the returning star to actually get things done with Cameron, so she did. She got production going again and kind of patched things up between him, Hurd, and the crew. I think the success of Ripley had a lot to do with Sigourney Weaver herself having not just a strong personality but also a lot classically feminine traits like empathy and an ability to mother and meditate and bringing those with her into the character. I don't think a lot of actresses could have pulled Ripley off the way she did.

I think Katniss Everdeen and Buffy the Vampire Slayer are pretty kick ass

85aggie777 said:

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JayHowdy! said:

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The best strong female character that I have seen in years is Phoenix from last years Maverick. She was strong, confident, extremely capable and at the same time beautiful, understanding and sympathetic. All of this and without the usual Hollywood BS that goes along with a strong female character. She was written as a pilot, trying to do her best, and to get selected for the mission that only a few of the worlds best pilots could execute. Not once was was there a disbelief that this character was there due to quotas, gender inclusion, or simply that we had to have a female pilot. Hats of to the writers that created this character, a character that I hope my daughter could emulate and become in the future.

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I had the exact same feeling when I watched the movie. She was a competent pilot without her or the movie needing to make a "statement" about the fact she was a woman in a male dominated field or making her macho. Top Gun: Maverick got it right on so many levels.

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There is actually an interview I either saw or read about how the character was written more in line with what we've seen in the last couple of decades. However, once they started spending time with actual female pilots and seeing how they acted, they realized that they were not over-compensating for being women and were just competent pilots that happened to be women.

Point being, it was reality that actually molded that character to feel real.

It all comes down to lazy writers who think creating a "Strong Female Lead" is simply substituting a badass male character with a female. It simply doesn't work that way.

I'd argue it's more than that. Good "badass male characters" still have to overcome something and their abilities aren't just there because. They are given backstory or progression to show how they became badass. We don't see John Wick's history of becoming the Baba Yaga but we hear it from someone that is terrified of him and it sets everything else up.

I'd suggest that it is part of a larger problem that Hollywood has had, especially since 2020: the predictability of "underrepresented" groups in films.

This is the Apple problem. If you see a character clearly using an Apple product, they will not be an antagonist, nor some kind of traitor. Generally, if any corporation has their product easily featured and used by a character, there is a near zero % likelihood, the character is bad.

The same kind be said of underrepresented groups featured in movies. Conflict arises between white man and (Insert underrepresented group here), I know what the outcome is going to be. Some obvious spoilers below...


Hey, Jurassic World Dominion threw in 3 black characters to go with a nearly all-white cast. Will any double-cross them? Of course not.

Rian Johnson has a new "mystery". The question is, which straight man did the killing and is the bad guy, and who will be the hero that helps the detective? And this will be totally different from his Last Jedi movie. Or his TV show Poker Face.


Boba Fett is informed by a redneck looking water monger of street thugs. These street hooligans actually like like mulitcultural poster for Vespa...I bet I know how this will turn out.

A disagreement between Poe and Laura Dern's boring character aboard a spaceship, let's have Poe mansplain everything, while Admiral Holdo heroically saves the day.

Wait...is Reva going to stay evil and slaughter young Luke and others? How refreshing that here is a black woman that is a true antagonist!!!! Oh wait, never mind. . . she turns her back on the dark side...


Here's a movie with a school aged group of kids, cue up a (likely minority) girl rocking her math and science skills. Let's really show how much she like science, but unlike nerds in the past, she also needs to be cute and athletic. I bet if any of these kids is actually bad, is a bully or makes a huge mistake, it's probably her (said nobody ever).


I feel like Hollywood needs to rediscover that minorities and women can also play some evil characters and great villains, even if the hero is a white guy.

Maybe I am giving Cameron too much credit. That's fine and I'll take your word for it. I have always been a Sigourney fan. And she's still got it going on.

Saw a little bit of Training Day the other night.

Denzel does evil so well.

I mean Cameron is responsible for two of the greatest female heroes of all time. I doubt that's a coincidence.

Quote:

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Rian Johnson has a new "mystery". The question is, which straight man did the killing and is the bad guy, and who will be the hero that helps the detective? And this will be totally different from his Last Jedi movie. Or his TV show Poker Face.

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Minor quibble. Poker Face had several pretty despicable characters who were not white or male. If you haven't watched it, it's pretty hilarious and entertaining.

jeffk said:

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Quote:

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Rian Johnson has a new "mystery". The question is, which straight man did the killing and is the bad guy, and who will be the hero that helps the detective? And this will be totally different from his Last Jedi movie. Or his TV show Poker Face.

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Minor quibble. Poker Face had several pretty despicable characters who were not white or male. If you haven't watched it, it's pretty hilarious and entertaining.

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I liked that show and watch it off and on, and I wish I didn't use it as an example. I guess I could say that the main bad guy (from when I last watched) was the casino owner, with Benjamin Bratt as his henchman, but it's not a great example.

Iowaggie said:

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I'd suggest that it is part of a larger problem that Hollywood has had, especially since 2020: the predictability of "underrepresented" groups in films.

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I was going to say the same thing.

This isn't lazy writing or bad writing. This is writers and creators either 1) completely buying into the current "strong girl" zeitgeist or 2) being afraid of a backlash from Twitter and the media due to said zeitgeist.

As you mentioned, the same holds true for other underrepresented characters, as well.

I think it's been going on for a lot longer than a few years, but it's gotten really, really bad recently.

Urban Ag said:

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Maybe I am giving Cameron too much credit. That's fine and I'll take your word for it. I have always been a Sigourney fan. And she's still got it going on.

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Cameron has a history of consistent, hardcore female leads or co-leads.

Ridley Scott directed the first Alien. He deserves more credit for Ridley than Cameron.

aTmAg said:

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Ridley Scott directed the first Alien. He deserves more credit for Ridley than Cameron.

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Actually Nintendo deserves that credit.

BassCowboy33 said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Maybe I am giving Cameron too much credit. That's fine and I'll take your word for it. I have always been a Sigourney fan. And she's still got it going on.

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Cameron has a history of consistent, hardcore female leads or co-leads.

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Jamie Lee and Tia Carrere in True Lies.

Urban Ag said:

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Maybe I am giving Cameron too much credit. That's fine and I'll take your word for it. I have always been a Sigourney fan. And she's still got it going on.

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Cameron definitely deserves a lot of credit for the movie as a whole, I mean the guy has got serious vision and talent directing, but if you dropped someone like Brie Larson into the same role with the same script and everything I think you'd have the same ****ty Captain Marvelesque character regardless of who directed it.

Then again, IIRC Cameron only agreed to do the movie with Sigourney signed on, so maybe he does deserve more credit than I'm giving him.

85aggie777 said:

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JayHowdy! said:

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The best strong female character that I have seen in years is Phoenix from last years Maverick. She was strong, confident, extremely capable and at the same time beautiful, understanding and sympathetic. All of this and without the usual Hollywood BS that goes along with a strong female character. She was written as a pilot, trying to do her best, and to get selected for the mission that only a few of the worlds best pilots could execute. Not once was was there a disbelief that this character was there due to quotas, gender inclusion, or simply that we had to have a female pilot. Hats of to the writers that created this character, a character that I hope my daughter could emulate and become in the future.

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I had the exact same feeling when I watched the movie. She was a competent pilot without her or the movie needing to make a "statement" about the fact she was a woman in a male dominated field or making her macho. Top Gun: Maverick got it right on so many levels.

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It helps when the female badass doesn't have to be a physically dominant badass, especially when interacting with physically dominant male counterparts.

Another strong female lead that I haven't seen mentioned yet is Emily Blunt in Edge of Tomorrow.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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BassCowboy33 said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Maybe I am giving Cameron too much credit. That's fine and I'll take your word for it. I have always been a Sigourney fan. And she's still got it going on.

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Cameron has a history of consistent, hardcore female leads or co-leads.

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Jamie Lee and Tia Carrere in True Lies.

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Terminator/T2 - Linda Hamilton
Aliens - Weaver
The Abyss - Mary Elizabeth long ass last name
True Lies - chef's kiss
Titanic - Kate


After that who cares

I appreciate the fact that Cameron wrote several scripts, including Rambo First Blood Part 2, and worked on video games from the 90s onward.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Maybe I am giving Cameron too much credit. That's fine and I'll take your word for it. I have always been a Sigourney fan. And she's still got it going on.

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Cameron definitely deserves a lot of credit for the movie as a whole, I mean the guy has got serious vision and talent directing, but if you dropped someone like Brie Larson into the same role with the same script and everything I think you'd have the same ****ty Captain Marvelesque character regardless of who directed it.

Then again, IIRC Cameron only agreed to do the movie with Sigourney signed on, so maybe he does deserve more credit than I'm giving him.

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Some of y'all have an unhealthy level of hate for Brie Larson.

Mayor West said:

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Another strong female lead that I haven't seen mentioned yet is Emily Blunt in Edge of Tomorrow.

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Quote:

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My big complaint about female action films is that many of the actors aren't athletic. You can fake a lot of things in movies, but you can't fake athleticism. Theron in Atomic Blonde, Weaver in Aliens, Emily Blunt in EoT, and Linda Hamilton in T2 are good examples of seriously flawed action characters who lean heavily on cunning and guile to defeat far superior opponents.

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Was mentioned already actually.

Chipotlemonger said:

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Mayor West said:

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Another strong female lead that I haven't seen mentioned yet is Emily Blunt in Edge of Tomorrow.

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Quote:

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My big complaint about female action films is that many of the actors aren't athletic. You can fake a lot of things in movies, but you can't fake athleticism. Theron in Atomic Blonde, Weaver in Aliens, Emily Blunt in EoT, and Linda Hamilton in T2 are good examples of seriously flawed action characters who lean heavily on cunning and guile to defeat far superior opponents.

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Was mentioned already actually.

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I probably should have spelled the title out, lol. I LOVE her in that film.

Yea, I need to rewatch it. It's been years, and it is so good. Her best movie I can think of.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Maybe I am giving Cameron too much credit. That's fine and I'll take your word for it. I have always been a Sigourney fan. And she's still got it going on.

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Cameron definitely deserves a lot of credit for the movie as a whole, I mean the guy has got serious vision and talent directing, but if you dropped someone like Brie Larson into the same role with the same script and everything I think you'd have the same ****ty Captain Marvelesque character regardless of who directed it.

Then again, IIRC Cameron only agreed to do the movie with Sigourney signed on, so maybe he does deserve more credit than I'm giving him.

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Sigourney Weaver had already rejected offers from Fox to do Alien sequels, thinking Ripley would be poorly written. Then she read James Cameron’s script. She was impressed with the quality of Cameron’s writing, and loved the mother-daughter bond between Ripley and Newt.

5/51 pic.twitter.com/cYihKJaSZI

— All The Right Movies (@ATRightMovies) July 18, 2023

Speaking of…

Iowaggie said:

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I'd suggest that it is part of a larger problem that Hollywood has had, especially since 2020: the predictability of "underrepresented" groups in films.

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It's a harsh truth, but accurate.

The video is certainly spot-on for most 'strong female characters' today, but it can also be applied beyond that.

Black Panther and Falcon from the MCU immediately come to mind...neither of them make any major mistakes, are usually the ones dictating things to others, with no actual flaws. They are made out to be saintly.

The "Superman" complex does the opposite of what it is intended. Instead of making the character look 'stronger', it makes them look cold and distant. It's no surprise some of these recent films/series haven't resonated with audiences.

The best characters are the ones with flaws who make mistakes, learn from others, and grow. Not the ones who know it all, lecture everyone, are all-powerful, and don't need help.

Anyone with an interest in Cameron/Ripley/Aliens needs to watch that episode of The Movies That Made Us on Netflix (sounds like a few have from the comments).

fig96 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Maybe I am giving Cameron too much credit. That's fine and I'll take your word for it. I have always been a Sigourney fan. And she's still got it going on.

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Cameron definitely deserves a lot of credit for the movie as a whole, I mean the guy has got serious vision and talent directing, but if you dropped someone like Brie Larson into the same role with the same script and everything I think you'd have the same ****ty Captain Marvelesque character regardless of who directed it.

Then again, IIRC Cameron only agreed to do the movie with Sigourney signed on, so maybe he does deserve more credit than I'm giving him.

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Some of y'all have an unhealthy level of hate for Brie Larson.

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She's basically a Michael Bolton..

For the record, I like Brie Larsen. I find her incredibly sexy and have since seeing Kong Skull Island. I get it that her personality in the real world is off-putting. That said, she has the body, the face, and the hair. But her voice for some reason, drives me crazy (in a good way).

That's the thing about women. The template can and will be skewed in so many ways. As the "crazy/hot matrix" guy said, "hot" is very subjective.

I don't mind seeing a strong female

I mind seeing a 104 pound female beating a 6 foot 4 inch 215 pound man in a hand to hand combat fight

ABATTBQ11 said:

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fig96 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Maybe I am giving Cameron too much credit. That's fine and I'll take your word for it. I have always been a Sigourney fan. And she's still got it going on.

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Cameron definitely deserves a lot of credit for the movie as a whole, I mean the guy has got serious vision and talent directing, but if you dropped someone like Brie Larson into the same role with the same script and everything I think you'd have the same ****ty Captain Marvelesque character regardless of who directed it.

Then again, IIRC Cameron only agreed to do the movie with Sigourney signed on, so maybe he does deserve more credit than I'm giving him.

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Some of y'all have an unhealthy level of hate for Brie Larson.

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She's basically a Michael Bolton..

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do what?

NSFW