Great point, George. I have written a lot about AI for business in the last few years. There's a case where a large company activated its new AI and the computer wrote a new algorithm on its own in the first 12 hours to accomplish another task. The guys who created it admitted they neither knew that it would or even could so that. I find that somewhat fascinating but mostly troubling.

lazuras_dc said:

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also thought that widespread access to facts for all people would also improve society, we'd all have the same facts at our disposal and because most people are good people ...

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Who knew that having all of human knowledge at our fingertips would make us DUMBER

Yes this documentary basically reinforced my existing opinions. I had already taken IG and FB off my phone as part of my New Years resolution and only really check FB at work (go figure). But it's been replaced by a Texags addiction. Not sure what's worse.

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Essentially, social media has segregated us into things we only like (or want to see). Im like both of you in that it would have been the opposite. And there is the flaw with AI. Can you write code to insure randomness/prevent addiction?

Scariest part is when you're talking about something and the ad pops up the next day on the work laptop or watching Hulu.

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Scariest part is when you're talking about something and the ad pops up the next day on the work laptop or watching Hulu.

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Absolutely this. My wife calls and says she is pricing a trip to Disney and the next time I am on Spotify here's an ad for Disney hotels

Yeah that's a thing, not confirmation bias. Snowden told us about the capabilities (related to NSA), but your phone mic will pick up things you say and throw ads at you. Happens to us several times a week. It can be the most random thing ever... AD.

Carlo4 said:

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lazuras_dc said:

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also thought that widespread access to facts for all people would also improve society, we'd all have the same facts at our disposal and because most people are good people ...

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Who knew that having all of human knowledge at our fingertips would make us DUMBER

Yes this documentary basically reinforced my existing opinions. I had already taken IG and FB off my phone as part of my New Years resolution and only really check FB at work (go figure). But it's been replaced by a Texags addiction. Not sure what's worse.

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Essentially, social media has segregated us into things we only like (or want to see). Im like both of you in that it would have been the opposite. And there is the flaw with AI. Can you write code to insure randomness/prevent addiction?

Scariest part is when you're talking about something and the ad pops up the next day on the work laptop or watching Hulu.

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The "flaw" isn't with AI, it's with the humans programming it to make billions of dollars off advertising.

There's an inherent conflict of interest, and this isn't that different than cigarette companies lying about how addictive their product is, or secretly upping the nicotine to increase addiction.

As the doc showed, they took classes specifically to learn how to use technology to manipulate humans into getting addicted.

Everything they pointed out, from how facebook feeds are different every time to news feeds that refresh with new content every time you open the page plays to our human instincts.

Couple that with human chemistry, and it's scary. The stats on teenage depression and suicide since 2011 that they showed really drive home the point.

I told my friend about this documentary and told him he needs to watch it especially since he has a 14yr old and a 10yr old. He said he and wife watched it then told the 14yr to go watch it by herself. After she did they started asking her about it and she stated it was scary and doesn't really want any part of social media.

My oldest is almost 9 and she has friends with phones already. No way am I giving my daughter a phone until at least sophomore yr in highschool and I've always said that. There's too much trouble kids can get into with phones.

I have seen a meme come around from time to time over the years that has a tube of toothpaste and a plate with all the toothpaste squeezed out on it. It basically says have your kid squeeze all the toothpaste out on the plate then tell them to put it back in the tube. When they ultimately say they can't or it's impossible tell them that toothpaste is like the words you say, or the pics you post, or texts you send, etc etc. Once they're out, they're out, they'll never go back in. I feel with social media you really have to drill in the fact that you can delete whatever you want but it will never be completely deleted. It'll all be out there forever, whether in a database somewhere, or a friend or random person screenshoting it, downloading it, whatever without you knowing. I've passed up resumes because of quick Google searches of candidate names and finding questionable social media posts. Everything you post can and will follow you.

I've not watched the documentary, but I've been worried about this kind of stuff for a while. It's big in video games, too, and I'm constantly talking to my kids about it.

Carol Baskin said:

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My wife and I have been talking about getting off social media for a while now and we pulled the trigger after watching this. There is a ton of truth in it and being terrified after watching it is the correct response IMO.

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Isn't Texags social media?

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Isn't Texags social media?

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TexAgs is an anomaly, a form of 1990's social media that has somehow survived into present day.
Not much harm here IMO.

As long as you stay away from the Politics and General boards, your mental health should stay relatively healthy.

Complete Idiot said:

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Is this documentary age appropriate for kids ages 10 and up? Would like to watch it as a family.

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My 11 year old watched it with us (she doesn't get to have social media or a smart phone currently. It had some stuff about suicide and self harm that was a little upsetting for her, but overall it wasn't inappropriate for her. Some of the more complex issues probably went over her head, but she got the message that "social media=dangerous."

G Martin 87 said:

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The Milkman said:

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The point that really struck the strongest with me that I had never considered before was that everything we think about AI is a fear that they would overcome our strengths. Take our jobs etc. But this is AI overcoming our weaknesses, and sending us into addiction. It is so true and really made me take a step back.

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I thought The Social Dilemma didn't go far enough in demonstrating the significance of AI in intentionally building increasingly effective addiction strategies. The truth is that AI has learned how to get humans hooked. The developers don't control it anymore. This TED talk hammers that point, and it's from 2017.

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Yikes. When will enough people wake up and mobilize to regulate this AI that uses our data to manipulate?

Very good points, lining up with the Netflix documentary, about how slowly nudging you to extremism works best to capture your attention. No question polarization and extremism has ramped up with for profit cable news but it's been exponential since for profit social media attention sellers. I see people everywhere, even on Texags, that are so obviously caught in the web - throwing out the latest buzz words for whatever opponent they have identified, groups of people focusing on the same obscure topics and generating nearly identical content in their posts. I feel bad for them since before I watched any of this I knew they were being manipulated/influenced/wormholed.

Complete Idiot said:

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G Martin 87 said:

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The Milkman said:

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The point that really struck the strongest with me that I had never considered before was that everything we think about AI is a fear that they would overcome our strengths. Take our jobs etc. But this is AI overcoming our weaknesses, and sending us into addiction. It is so true and really made me take a step back.

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I thought The Social Dilemma didn't go far enough in demonstrating the significance of AI in intentionally building increasingly effective addiction strategies. The truth is that AI has learned how to get humans hooked. The developers don't control it anymore. This TED talk hammers that point, and it's from 2017.

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Yikes. When will enough people wake up and mobilize to regulate this AI that uses our data to manipulate?

Very good points, lining up with the Netflix documentary, about how slowly nudging you to extremism works best to capture your attention. No question polarization and extremism has ramped up with for profit cable news but it's been exponential since for profit social media attention sellers. I see people everywhere, even on Texags, that are so obviously caught in the web - throwing out the latest buzz words for whatever opponent they have identified, groups of people focusing on the same obscure topics and generating nearly identical content in their posts. I feel bad for them since before I watched any of this I knew they were being manipulated/influenced/wormholed.

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So true. Before watching this, no explanation for the spike in craziness on FB made any sense. A lot of people aren't able to resist the manipulation at all. It's so subtle that we're all victims of it to varying degrees.

lazuras_dc said:

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Who knew that having all of human knowledge at our fingertips would make us DUMBER

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Its not that we're dumber but that we think we know more about subjects than we really do.

It's not unlike taking an open book test. I know now that open book tests were always the hardest. My Public Administration prof at A&M had nothing but open book tests admitting that in real life you will have access to all the information, books and tools. It was more important to know where the relevant material/information was, than knowing exactly what it was. What we all found was that when you know that it's an open book test in advance, people are going to study the material less than for a closed book test. Yes, we would know about the material but we never really knew (or grok, for you scf-fi fans out there) the material. Sometimes you could 'fake it until you make it' but other times you find yourself just pulling BS out of the air and try to make it sound like you knew what you were talking about. You would try and skirt by sounding more knowledgeable than you really were. The prof, as an expert in the field, could often tell the difference but I doubt average person could.

And I think the same happens all the time now. People with only passing knowledge comment on subjects with enough conviction and it convinces readers they are correct when in fact they are mostly uninformed and passing on that bad information or malformed ideas. And, to use a math/physics concept, information is never destroyed so it's really hard to stop bad info and ideas. George Carlin once talked about people being stupid, full of **** and ****ing nuts. Stupid and nuts can be easy, but distinguishing those that are FoS are the hardest for adults and it is damn near impossible for kids.

Imagine what these algorithms could do if the end goal was not financial incentive. I just do not see how you regulate these things b/c how do you regulate something the creators do not even understand fully.

I did find it ironic that the guy at the end of the show says people should go outside and enjoy the world...as the creator of VR.

All this talk about AI being so powerful? I heard Common say "A-Eye" was going to do all these great things for us?

Why doesn't someone just ask IBM's Watson to find a viable vaccine for COVID by this afternoon please? They already said it could do things in hours that used to take days or weeks.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frai.2020.00065/full

Electrical_Ag said:

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All this talk about AI being so powerful? I heard Common say "A-Eye" was going to do all these great things for us?

Why doesn't someone just ask IBM's Watson to find a viable vaccine for COVID by this afternoon please? They already said it could do things in hours that used to take days or weeks.

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if i've learned anything from movies, Watson will find a way to kill all the infected humans and their loved ones so they can't spread anymore.

You guys ever check out the site waitbutwhy? The guy writes some really interesting stuff, but he's ridiculously long winded.

I used to blow off the potential dangers of AI. Then I read his article on it. Fascinating and worrisome.

https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html

EastSideAg2002 said:

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I did find it ironic that the guy at the end of the show says people should go outside and enjoy the world...as the creator of VR.

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I also thought it was ironic that the monetizing guy for Facebook said he doesn't allow any screen time for his kids... that's telling.

double aught said:

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You guys ever check out the site waitbutwhy? The guy writes some really interesting stuff, but he's ridiculously long winded.

I used to blow off the potential dangers of AI. Then I read his article on it. Fascinating and worrisome.

https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html

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Great article. Read it a few years ago. It's a long read but very well thought out and paints a not so happy, but realistic picture of a future AI world.

G Martin 87 said:

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Complete Idiot said:

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G Martin 87 said:

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The Milkman said:

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The point that really struck the strongest with me that I had never considered before was that everything we think about AI is a fear that they would overcome our strengths. Take our jobs etc. But this is AI overcoming our weaknesses, and sending us into addiction. It is so true and really made me take a step back.

---

I thought The Social Dilemma didn't go far enough in demonstrating the significance of AI in intentionally building increasingly effective addiction strategies. The truth is that AI has learned how to get humans hooked. The developers don't control it anymore. This TED talk hammers that point, and it's from 2017.

---

Yikes. When will enough people wake up and mobilize to regulate this AI that uses our data to manipulate?

Very good points, lining up with the Netflix documentary, about how slowly nudging you to extremism works best to capture your attention. No question polarization and extremism has ramped up with for profit cable news but it's been exponential since for profit social media attention sellers. I see people everywhere, even on Texags, that are so obviously caught in the web - throwing out the latest buzz words for whatever opponent they have identified, groups of people focusing on the same obscure topics and generating nearly identical content in their posts. I feel bad for them since before I watched any of this I knew they were being manipulated/influenced/wormholed.

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So true. Before watching this, no explanation for the spike in craziness on FB made any sense. A lot of people aren't able to resist the manipulation at all. It's so subtle that we're all victims of it to varying degrees.

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Dr Zubin Damania also does a great followup to the documentary.

Did youtube recommend that to you after you watched the Doc?

THe Youtube link is somewhat ironic.

double aught said:

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You guys ever check out the site waitbutwhy? The guy writes some really interesting stuff, but he's ridiculously long winded.

I used to blow off the potential dangers of AI. Then I read his article on it. Fascinating and worrisome.

https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html

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Good grief man! I've learned too much in too short a time!

They'll be coming for you first!

What if he's an AI bot?

Any complete idiot is indistinguishable from magic.

Complete Idiot said:

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Did youtube recommend that to you after you watched the Doc?

THe Youtube link is somewhat ironic.

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He actually addresses that irony in the blog. You should watch it.

Funny to see some of the people in the show spewing rhetoric about climate change that, unbeknownst to them, they were manipulated to believe by the very tools they're criticizing.

Bretton Gekko said:

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Funny to see some of the people in the show spewing rhetoric about climate change that, unbeknownst to them, they were manipulated to believe by the very tools they're criticizing.

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I'm glad I wasn't the only one that did a "wait a minute now" at these comments

Complete Idiot said:

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double aught said:

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You guys ever check out the site waitbutwhy? The guy writes some really interesting stuff, but he's ridiculously long winded.

I used to blow off the potential dangers of AI. Then I read his article on it. Fascinating and worrisome.

https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html

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Good grief man! I've learned too much in too short a time!

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Read the Fermi Paradox one next.

Just watched this with my wife. Its funny because the one thing I enjoy about FB are the ads for companies I've never heard of about the things I like. I guess I've been the perfect target for these guys all along.

Reading Dune for the first time and Frank Herbert seems fairly prophetic to me at the moment. It's a book ahead of it's time in 1965.

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."

We watched this last night and it was frightening. I had already deleted my Facebook account over a year ago and never did Twitter because I had the foresight to see it's negative impact on me and others. I do still have Instagram, LinkedIn, and will consider TexAgs social media. Rarely use the former two.

As someone who worked a bit in the digital marketing world over the last year you would be floored as to what is happening in that sector. You are being tracked in everything that you do. It was eye opening learning about how that industry works. There are companies (besides the usual Big Tech monsters) that can and are tracking your "intent" on the web. They can basically troll every IP address on the planet to track and store what you are searching for, package that information up, and then sell it to companies for lead generation. After walking through some demos by some of these companies, I flat out told them in the demo it was evil. They just kind of shrugged and basically acknowledged my comment, but, hey, it's money.

Best thing about watching it is that it made my wife realize how manipulated she is on Instagram. Her spending on facial care b.s. has skyrocketed during the pandemic solely because of it. She was blown away by the end of it.

Also, even though it largely tells a story that impacts all of us it still has a left leaning bias. Even with something like that you can't get a fully bi-partisan presentation. However, I still highly recommend it.