ESPN's Michael Jordan Doc moved up to April

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Fat Bib Fortuna
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8:34p, 5/14/20
I have to put Shaq on the bottom half of the top 10 because he never fixed the flaw in his game - the FT shooting. Except for one bizarro year where he 62.2% of them, he was a coin flip at the FT line.
he shot 52.7% on FT for his career. Duncan shot 69.6% and Olajuwon shot 71.2% and both of them improved dramatically over time.

If Shaq had shot 70% instead of 52.7% from the free-throw line in his career, he would have scored an extra 1,941 points in his career. That is a staggering number.

Add that to his career totals and he's up over 30,000 points in his career and his scoring average goes from 23.7 to 25.3 per game.That small jump in points per game would have had him finish 11th in scoring average instead of 21st.


Magic Johnson was a rookie in the NBA 40 years ago and no one player before or since has matched that skill set in that size of body. Oscar Robertson (6 foot 5) and LeBron James (6 foot 8) come the closest, but I hold the unpopular, oft-ridiculed opinion that when it comes to the post 1980 NBA, it goes #1) Michael, #2) Magic. Unfortunately, he didn't take his personal life as seriously as his professional life and it cost him at least half a decade of basketball that had he kept playing in, he might have added 4,500 more assists and 450 more steals to his totals. That would have him top 2 in assists and top 10 in steals. Regardless, his talent combined with size is, IMO, the most unique in basketball history.
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oragator
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In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 8:42p, 5/14/20
No way he would have had that many more more points because there wouldn't have been a hack shaq If he were a decent shooter, though I get that point,
Interestingly though, if you saw the SECN show on him, he and Dale Brown both said that he shot a high percentage in practice, but he was self conscious for some reason in games, which is weird.
My biggest thing about Shaq was that as amazing as he was around the rim, he was almost no threat if he was more than 4 feet from the basket. Duncan and Olajuwon both had mid range games.
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Bruce Almighty
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8:47p, 5/14/20
AG
I seem to remember that Shaq had a decent FT % in the 4th quarter but was horrible in the other 3.
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TCTTS
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1:36a, 5/15/20
AG
A couple of notes/observations from Bill Simmons' podcast with Van Lathan this week that I thought were incredibly insightful...
  • When Jordan is brought to tears at the end of episode seven, a lot of people seem to think that those tears come from him being so incredibly passionate about winning that he can't help but get that emotional ("That's because you've never won anything," etc). And I think that's true to an extent. But Simmons and Lathan both think there was more to it than that. Rather, they believe that in that moment, Jordan is also grappling with, in real time, how much he sacrificed - his relationship with his family, his reputation, his privacy, any shot at normalcy, etc - to achieve his goal of being the best to ever play the game. And that's what I love so much about this doc, and Jordan in general, is that it's so refreshing to see someone OWN that in the way he does, all these years later. Where as you would expect someone in his position to have regrets in hindsight, twenty years later - that maybe he should have spent more time with his family, etc - he has none. To Michael Jordan, winning was more important than ANYTHING. And he's flat out saying that he couldn't have achieved what he achieved by thinking/being any other way. He has that self-awareness. He understands what he sacrificed, what that goal required, and he's content with his decision. To the point where if he wasn't still content to this day, he wouldn't have been who he was back then. Right or wrong, good or bad, it's just incredible see to him still have that mindset to this day. It's what *he* wanted, what *he* deemed important, and f/ck everyone else, he actually went and did it. He achieved the impossible. He stepped on the f/cking moon, and no one else can say they did the same or even understand what it's like.
  • Expanding on that, the other great Simmons and Lathan's point is some of the best Jordan/LeBron analysis I've heard. Basically they argue that Jordan had the perfect family life growing up; a nice, middle class upbringing, smart, hard-working, loving parents, older brothers and sisters, etc. So, after leaving home, it was easier for Jordan to essentially not need to replicate that again for himself in his pursuit of greatness. In his mind, he had been there done that, and he wanted something else. Whereas LeBron had a terrible childhood, no father, he and his mother were dirt poor, etc. So what LeBron cherishes, in addition to basketball greatness, *is* the family life; to be the father to his kids that he never had, to be a great husband, have healthy, long-lasting friendships, etc. And he too got what he wanted. In fact, in the grand scheme of things, his feat of achieving that balance could be considered just as impressive, if not more so. So when people say LeBron lacks the killer instinct Jordan had - which I agree with - what they're not acknowledging is that in its place is something LeBron cherishes more.
Anyway, I'm not at all justifying Jordan being an assh/le, potentially cheating on his wife, not being there for his kids, etc (though I think he had/has a better relationship with them than we know), I'm just saying that it's refreshing to see someone in his position still not only have the same conviction to this day, but understand what that conviction cost him and still be ok with it. Because if he wasn't ok with it, he wouldn't be Michael Jordan. And further, compared to LeBron, they both achieved their goals, on their own terms, in their own ways. Jordan is the greatest of all time, no doubt. But LeBron got the family he always wanted... and yet is still at least part of "the greatest" conversation.
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SACR
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In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 2:50a, 5/15/20
AG

Disagree that on the FT shooting on Shaq. It's not like he didn't try to fix this 'flaw. Reality is, because of his height and wing span, when he shot free throws, he was shooting 'down' at the rim instead of up. The only realistic fix would be to shoot from his knees.

Or he could shoot underhand all the time.
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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In reply to SACR • 3:18a, 5/15/20
SACR said:

Disagree that on the FT shooting on Shaq. It's not like he didn't try to fix this 'flaw. Reality is, because of his height and wing span, when he shot free throws, he was shooting 'down' at the rim instead of up. The only realistic fix would be to shoot from his knees.

Or he could shoot underhand all the time.


Shaq is 7 1 with a 7v7 wingspan and shot .527.
Mark eaton 7ft4 wingspan 7ft5 shot .619
Shawn bradley 7ft6bwingspan 7ft5 shot .717
Yao ming 7ft6 wingspan 7ft5 shot .833
Even manute bol who was 7ft7 with an 8ft6 wingspan shot .562.

So yeah that reason makes no sense.
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AgShaun00
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In reply to TCTTS • 7:39a, 5/15/20
AG
TCTTS said:
A couple of notes/observations from Bill Simmons' podcast with Van Lathan this week that I thought were incredibly insightful...
  • When Jordan is brought to tears at the end of episode seven, a lot of people seem to think that those tears come from him being so incredibly passionate about winning that he can't help but get that emotional ("That's because you've never won anything," etc). And I think that's true to an extent. But Simmons and Lathan both think there was more to it than that. Rather, they believe that in that moment, Jordan is also grappling with, in real time, how much he sacrificed - his relationship with his family, his reputation, his privacy, any shot at normalcy, etc - to achieve his goal of being the best to ever play the game. And that's what I love so much about this doc, and Jordan in general, is that it's so refreshing to see someone OWN that in the way he does, all these years later. Where as you would expect someone in his position to have regrets in hindsight, twenty years later - that maybe he should have spent more time with his family, etc - he has none. To Michael Jordan, winning was more important than ANYTHING. And he's flat out saying that he couldn't have achieved what he achieved by thinking/being any other way. He has that self-awareness. He understands what he sacrificed, what that goal required, and he's content with his decision. To the point where if he wasn't still content to this day, he wouldn't have been who he was back then. Right or wrong, good or bad, it's just incredible see to him still have that mindset to this day. It's what *he* wanted, what *he* deemed important, and f/ck everyone else, he actually went and did it. He achieved the impossible. He stepped on the f/cking moon, and no one else can say they did the same or even understand what it's like.
  • Expanding on that, the other great Simmons and Lathan's point is some of the best Jordan/LeBron analysis I've heard. Basically they argue that Jordan had the perfect family life growing up; a nice, middle class upbringing, smart, hard-working, loving parents, older brothers and sisters, etc. So, after leaving home, it was easier for Jordan to essentially not need to replicate that again for himself in his pursuit of greatness. In his mind, he had been there done that, and he wanted something else. Whereas LeBron had a terrible childhood, no father, he and his mother were dirt poor, etc. So what LeBron cherishes, in addition to basketball greatness, *is* the family life; to be the father to his kids that he never had, to be a great husband, have healthy, long-lasting friendships, etc. And he too got what he wanted. In fact, in the grand scheme of things, his feat of achieving that balance could be considered just as impressive, if not more so. So when people say LeBron lacks the killer instinct Jordan had - which I agree with - what they're not acknowledging is that in its place is something LeBron cherishes more.
Anyway, I'm not at all justifying Jordan being an assh/le, potentially cheating on his wife, not being there for his kids, etc (though I think he had/has a better relationship with them than we know), I'm just saying that it's refreshing to see someone in his position still not only have the same conviction to this day, but understand what that conviction cost him and still be ok with it. Because if he wasn't ok with it, he wouldn't be Michael Jordan. And further, compared to LeBron, they both achieved their goals, on their own terms, in their own ways. Jordan is the greatest of all time, no doubt. But LeBron got the family he always wanted... and yet is still at least part of "the greatest" conversation.
on your first point, I never consider it about winning. I think it was more to do that alienated everyone for the sake of winning and knows he that most of his teammates didn't like him. They respected him which was more important, but they didn't like him. That is hard for anyone to know that you did all the things in your profession to be successful and win, and no one really likes you. That is my take on that. That would hurt me 20 years later. My mindset is I made you guys champions, I made you better to better provide for your family. They didn't appreciate that.
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TCTTS
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10:50a, 5/15/20
AG

https://www.newsweek.com/juanita-jordan-surprised-father-michael-jordan-last-dance-1504285
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BigHitterDaLama
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11:44a, 5/15/20
Jordan transformed the way the NBA was played and ushered in a new style that is the cornerstone of the NBA today......all the greats from the last 2 decades attribute their basketball passion, style, etc. to Jordan.......the only other player who gets a mention is Kobe.

One could argue he impacted his sport ON and OFF the court, in only a way that has another rival/equal....Tiger Woods. I am talking about the advertising, the shoe deal(s) and endorsements, branding, a global reach and popularity for a single athlete. The Bulls big games during those years made Sunday telecast, to impact viewership. Everyone wanted to see Mike. When Tiger is in the hunt on a Sunday, viewership goes off the charts. The similarities between Mike and Tiger are eerie......the fuel to destroy the competition, the dad relationship, the scrutiny of being flawed (infidelity in marriage, gambling..Mike, rubbing people the wrong way).

The TW "Last Dance", when it comes years down the road, will be amazing to watch.

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SACR
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In reply to BigHitterDaLama • 11:54a, 5/15/20
AG
Quote:
When Tiger is in the hunt on a Sunday, viewership goes off the charts.
Putting NBA games on television on Sundays was a conscious choice by the network.

PGA events are four rounds beginning on Thursday, with the final rounds played on Sunday. While viewership soars anytime Tiger is in the hunt in the final round, I'm quite sure the most viewed day of any pro golf event is Sunday, simply because that is the final round of every event.
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Some Junkie Cosmonaut
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In reply to SACR • 12:20p, 5/15/20
AG
SACR said:
Quote:
When Tiger is in the hunt on a Sunday, viewership goes off the charts.
Putting NBA games on television on Sundays was a conscious choice by the network.

PGA events are four rounds beginning on Thursday, with the final rounds played on Sunday. While viewership soars anytime Tiger is in the hunt in the final round, I'm quite sure the most viewed day of any pro golf event is Sunday, simply because that is the final round of every event.


what point are you attempting to make here?
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Stive
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In reply to SACR • 12:23p, 5/15/20
AG
It's a numerical fact that golf tournament's Sunday viewership goes through the roof when Tiger is in the hunt compared to when he's not. It's not just "viewership seems higher on Sundays". It's viewership when Tiger is in the hunt on Sundays is much higher than viewership on Sundays when he isn't.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to Some Junkie Cosmonaut • 12:36p, 5/15/20
AG
I had the same question...
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Some Junkie Cosmonaut
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In reply to Stive • 12:40p, 5/15/20
AG
not to mention the flood of money tiger brought to the pga...
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Chipotlemonger
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In reply to SACR • 12:43p, 5/15/20
AG
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SACR
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In reply to Some Junkie Cosmonaut • 1:37p, 5/15/20
AG

He's using Bulls playing on Sundays and PGA television ratings on Sundays to say Jordan and Tiger are similar. Networks chose to put Bulls games on Sundays because of Jordan. Golf tournaments were playing their final rounds on Sunday long before their Tiger came on the scene.

So this one data point where he's saying they're similar is more of a coincidence than a fact.

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SACR
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In reply to Stive • 1:39p, 5/15/20
AG
Stive said:
It's a numerical fact that golf tournament's Sunday viewership goes through the roof when Tiger is in the hunt compared to when he's not. It's not just "viewership seems higher on Sundays". It's viewership when Tiger is in the hunt on Sundays is much higher than viewership on Sundays when he isn't.
No kidding, I never disputed that point. I'm one of those people who doesn't particularly care about golf, but will turn on any major on Sunday if I hear Tigers is in the hunt because I like watching excellence in action.
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BigHitterDaLama
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In reply to Some Junkie Cosmonaut • 2:14p, 5/15/20
ruddyduck said:
not to mention the flood of money tiger brought to the pga...
Exactly. Changed it completely.....because of viewership, non golf fans tuning in, increased sponsors and tickets sales to watch greatness.

Jordan did the same thing with the modern sneaker/apparel endorsement deal......and endorsements in general for ANY sport.
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SACR
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In reply to BigHitterDaLama • 11:09p, 5/15/20
AG
BigHitterDaLama said:
ruddyduck said:
not to mention the flood of money tiger brought to the pga...
Exactly. Changed it completely.....because of viewership, non golf fans tuning in, increased sponsors and tickets sales to watch greatness.

Jordan did the same thing with the modern sneaker/apparel endorsement deal......and endorsements in general for ANY sport.
I honestly think Nike figured out how to market a mega-star with Jordan, and applied those lessons with Tiger.

Jordan is still a marketing phenomenon today. No one buys Magic Johnson's shoes or Larry Bird's shoes today, but they still by Jordan's.
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SACR
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11:12p, 5/15/20
AG

Jerry Krause is obviously someone who Jordan didn't like, Krause feeling like he and the front office were responsible for the championships more than the players, and wanting to dismantle the team so he could build another championship team and prove himself. Krause failed in that endeavor after Jordan retired for the second time.

Anyone else find it ironic that Jordan hated Krause as a GM and has always been vocal about that, yet he is a complete failure as a basketball executive himself?
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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12:11a, 5/16/20
It really sucks the way Krause is portrayed in this piece. It's easy to dislike him and make him the "villain" to Jordan's hero - he's got a big ego, he's short, he's kinda chubby, he's the dopey white guy in the locker room full of cool black athletes. He died in 2017 so he's got no way to defend himself. Jordan has him on blast throughout the documentary for looking beyond the '98 season, but that's what a GM is doing - building for the future always.
The guy was 2x Exec of the Year and is in the HoF. He's an arrogant d-bag on many of his interviews and sound bites and clearly wanted to be the longest d*ck in the room when going head to head with Phil Jackson, but consider the he also:

1) Hired Tex Winter
2) Promoted Phil Jackson
3) Traded Olden Polynice for Pippen at the draft, then drafted Grant in the same year. And taking Pippen 5th from Central Arkansas took some major stones, let's not downplay what a spectacular failure that could have been.Especially with Polynice a C the Bulls could have used, or Kevin Johnson or Kenny SMith as PG to help Michael shoulder the load of ball-handling.
4) Drafted BJ Armstrong
5) Traded Oakley for Bill Cartwright
6) Trade Will Perdue for Rodman. Seriously. WILL PERDUE.
7) Added Kukoc and Ron Harper the year after Jordan retired. That team was tough as hell in getting to the ECSF. They would have given Indiana and/or Houston a great series had they gotten through the Knicks.

Krause is really easy to dislike, but the doc - being a Jordan project - is making it seem like all he did was sign the checks and run his mouth. That's life in Michael's world, I guess.
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redline248
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In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 2:08a, 5/16/20
AG
But why did he want to get rid of Phil Jackson?
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johnnyblaze36
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In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 4:56a, 5/16/20
AG
MuckRaker96 said:
If i had 3 wishes, I would totally waste one of them on watching LeBron play against the Lambieer/Mahorn/Rodman Pistons. Would be he be able to shoot his free throws amid all the tears?
Interesting that you sound like a LeBron hater now. FOH.
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ATM9000
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In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 7:47a, 5/16/20
AG
MuckRaker96 said:
Jordan has him on blast throughout the documentary for looking beyond the '98 season, but that's what a GM is doing - building for the future always.

Effectively taking a team who is peaked out and declaring you are blowing that up no matter what after the next season and then actually doing it when the team wins it again is illogical, ill conceited and stupid. You are right... Krause was a skilled as a GM, but that move proved the arrogance and ego of the man. He didn't do that looking out for the fans, the owner or for the greater good of his organization... Jerry did that for himself.
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BigHitterDaLama
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11:22a, 5/16/20
Krause's ego was bigger than Bulls.....little man syndrome.

My first thought about him is "How dumb could you be to break up that team and let go of Phil" vs "How smart you were to assemble those pieces and build that organization".

Again, Chicago has 5 postseason series wins since 99. Phil has 5 more Rings.
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SACR
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11:45a, 5/16/20
AG


Guess he wasn't too worried about Utah.
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JDUB08AG
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In reply to BigHitterDaLama • 11:53a, 5/16/20
AG
BigHitterDaLama said:
Krause's ego was bigger than Bulls.....little man syndrome.

My first thought about him is "How dumb could you be to break up that team and let go of Phil" vs "How smart you were to assemble those pieces and build that organization".

Again, Chicago has 4 postseason series wins since 99. Phil has 5 more Rings.


I always think of Phil having the luxury of arguably the 2 greatest players in the history of the NBA with a supporting cast scattered in the top 30 greatest players in the history of the NBA. Had Phil stayed in Chicago, he probably doesn't win another championship.
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Quad Dog
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12:32p, 5/16/20
AG
We also live in a player empowerment era that didn't exist back then. If Krause had come to Jordan and said something like " we can't afford Pippen's new contract, but I can trade him now for two young players and a veteran. Plus we can then afford to keep Rodman." That and keeping Jackson would have probably made Jordan happy enough to stay.
But that's just not a conversation a GM had with players in the 90s. Star players are involved in that kind of conversation now. I doubt Krause or any other GM would have even thought about involving a player back then.
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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In reply to johnnyblaze36 • 1:13p, 5/16/20
johnnyblaze36 said:
MuckRaker96 said:
If i had 3 wishes, I would totally waste one of them on watching LeBron play against the Lambieer/Mahorn/Rodman Pistons. Would be he be able to shoot his free throws amid all the tears?
Interesting that you sound like a LeBron hater now. FOH.
I don't hate anyone dude, it's just sports.
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SACR
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In reply to Quad Dog • 1:39p, 5/16/20
AG
Quad Dog said:
We also live in a player empowerment era that didn't exist back then. If Krause had come to Jordan and said something like " we can't afford Pippen's new contract, but I can trade him now for two young players and a veteran. Plus we can then afford to keep Rodman." That and keeping Jackson would have probably made Jordan happy enough to stay.
But that's just not a conversation a GM had with players in the 90s. Star players are involved in that kind of conversation now. I doubt Krause or any other GM would have even thought about involving a player back then.
Completely disagree. Jordan was constantly going to Jerry Reinsdorf about players they should add to the Bulls to help him win, especially players from UNC. A GM wouldn't be having that conversation simply because the star player was talking directly to the owner.
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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4:05p, 5/16/20
I know I'm getting old when I find myself nodding along with Reinsdorf when he says "Once you sign that contract, that's it. I don't want to see you in my office again."
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Head Ninja In Charge
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In reply to JDUB08AG • 4:58p, 5/16/20
AG
WelchAg said:
BigHitterDaLama said:
Krause's ego was bigger than Bulls.....little man syndrome.

My first thought about him is "How dumb could you be to break up that team and let go of Phil" vs "How smart you were to assemble those pieces and build that organization".

Again, Chicago has 4 postseason series wins since 99. Phil has 5 more Rings.


I always think of Phil having the luxury of arguably the 2 greatest players in the history of the NBA with a supporting cast scattered in the top 30 greatest players in the history of the NBA. Had Phil stayed in Chicago, he probably doesn't win another championship.


I always laugh when I hear this. Did he have great players? Sure. Nobody is disputing that. Good coaches can coach average players into becoming good players. Only great coaches can coach great players. There is a reason why players like Jordan and Kobe didn't play up to their full potential under their other coaches. When a player like Jordan says he won't play for anyone else, that means something.

There's a reason why LeBron went to 8 Finals but only won three of them. He's had what, 7 different coaches? And has had how many of them fired?
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OCEN99
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In reply to SACR • 5:32p, 5/16/20
AG
SACR said:


Guess he wasn't too worried about Utah.
He actually had a wrestling feud with Karl Malone about a month after the finals.
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JDUB08AG
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In reply to Head Ninja In Charge • 6:19p, 5/16/20
AG
Head Ninja In Charge said:
WelchAg said:
BigHitterDaLama said:
Krause's ego was bigger than Bulls.....little man syndrome.

My first thought about him is "How dumb could you be to break up that team and let go of Phil" vs "How smart you were to assemble those pieces and build that organization".

Again, Chicago has 4 postseason series wins since 99. Phil has 5 more Rings.


I always think of Phil having the luxury of arguably the 2 greatest players in the history of the NBA with a supporting cast scattered in the top 30 greatest players in the history of the NBA. Had Phil stayed in Chicago, he probably doesn't win another championship.


I always laugh when I hear this. Did he have great players? Sure. Nobody is disputing that. Good coaches can coach average players into becoming good players. Only great coaches can coach great players. There is a reason why players like Jordan and Kobe didn't play up to their full potential under their other coaches. When a player like Jordan says he won't play for anyone else, that means something.

There's a reason why LeBron went to 8 Finals but only won three of them. He's had what, 7 different coaches? And has had how many of them fired?


I didn't intent for this to be a knock on Phil. He won 6 rings with Chicago, his greatness was already set in stone. My point was he got that opportunity twice.

But my real intention was to say had Phil stayed, I don't think he would have won more with Chicago. I don't agree with how Krause handled it, changing directions wasn't the dumbest thing in the world.
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JCA1
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6:50p, 5/16/20
AG
It's a given that every great coach invariably had great players. It's pretty much impossible to compete, much less win, with marginal talent. Just the way it is. What makes a coach great is that they took advantage of the opportunity they had. Many don't.
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