****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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cbr
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2:51p, 5/20/19
AG
I said i was out but someone sent me this and i laughed out loud so here you go




Well, **** it, shows up as a pic on my edit screen, not in forum, thread not worth the effort

Hope you guys find a good new show to follow.
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cbr
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In reply to Max Power • 2:54p, 5/20/19
AG
Max Power said:
While not a perfect ending, what a hell of a ride! This is my favorite series of all time, what HBO was able to accomplish is really incredible. This thread is over 14k posts strong...for season 8 alone, I'm not doing the research for the other seasons but if there's anything else on this board in that territory I'm at a loss.
Pretty easy to see that D&D were on their best game when the subject material was already hashed out. I'm sure GRRM gave them some high points of what's coming but I agree they definitely didn't have this thing together for the last 2 seasons.
But the main thing I'm happy with is the acting, they nailed the cast 100%, I don't think I would recast anyone. Whoever cast this series needs to be involved in the spinoff, because that's the main thing they did correctly, it's the strength of the show beyond anything else. They put the right actors in the right roles, heroes and villains alike.
I hope the last two seasons of this show can get GRRM to finish the books, I feel like the only way that happens is if he's writing them concurrently. If he's only been writing Winds of Winter and nothing else there's no way we ever see A Dream of Spring.
I need to read A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and Fire and Blood, after that I'll watch the series again. I need some time to grieve first.
Actually i thought jon was a pretty weak actor

The rest very good, some great.
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bangobango
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2:55p, 5/20/19
AG
My random scatter shots:

1. First, the good. The visuals were stunning. The wings behind Dany was an all-time shot that I think we will see recreated for years from now. I also really liked Drogon waking up and shaking of the ash (or was it snow) when Jon approached. Third Reich imagery was on point as well.

I was really sad when Jon stabbed Dany. Especially remembering her as the character she was for 7 seasons and four episodes. Very poignant moment for me and it worked very well.

They tied up almost all the loose ends. You may not agree with how they did it (and oh boy, I don't) but they didn't leave much to guess at. So, good job on them for having the courage to wrap it pretty much all up.

Now, the bad.

2. The first several seasons of this were great because they did NOT feel like typical tv or even movie fair. The actions had real consequences and those consequences made sense. The actions of others were clearly understood and were always an interesting look into human psychology, and how sometimes evil deeds are paved with noble intentions when examined from a different perspective (pushing kid off balcony to ensure your three children aren't executed, for example).

This episode felt like typical hollywood fair. More like a show wrapping up on ABC or NBC rather than what we'd come to know and love. Everyone had their neat ending. Even minor characters like Bron end up getting a send-off, on the high council as the master of coins for some inexplicable reason, with a scene that screamed for a sitcom laugh track.

Tyrion getting released to argue in front of an assembled group that a king or queen should decide Jon Snow's fate? Why? Greyworm and the Unsullied had no reason to respect what the new ruler decided to do with Jon. They had no reason to let Tyrion go. In fact, if the Unsullied didn't cut down Jon where he stood after killing Dany, then the Dothraki most certainly would have.

Bran elected king b/c he's a crippled. The whole point of all this is that stories have power? They've said that a couple of times here at the end, so I guess that is the theme that they're trying to hammer home, but I have to be honest, I don't get it. How is Bran's story better than Jon's? How is it better than Tyrion's, or Sansa's, or Arya's?

3. I still don't understand why Dany killed everyone? Her explanation was that Cersei was using her mercy against her? It wasn't working. Why do you need to torch everyone at that point?

And did Jon go in there to kill her or was he on the fence? They have him standing there while she's giving the speech to the Dothraki and Unsullied, but he can't understand what she's saying. He wouldn't know that she said she is going to invade Winterfell. When he left Tyrion's room he was committed to sticking with Dany is my queen. Then Tyrion mentions his sisters.

I guess Jon killed her b/c of his sisters? But that's not the conversation he had with her. If that was the motive for killing her, it seems he would say something to her about what she planned to do with Sansa, but rather he seemed to be focusing on her motives for scorching King Landing, like he was hoping she would give a justification for it.

They really left a lot for interpretation between those two. For example, I am still not sure if Jon was refusing her b/c they're related or b/c he didn't know what would happen with them and the throne. Why did she think he would be cool with her after she did that to Kings Landing. I mean, the way she acted like she didn't do anything wrong showed a startling lack of self-awareness, which has not been Dany's problem. She has always examined her actions, and she acted like she was surprised that Jon had a problem with what she did. That was more like psychosis than rational decision making. Who the **** knows?

4. Little inconsistencies just drive me nuts and seem rally lazy. Jon passes Grey Worm looking for Dany, then Grey worm shows up with Dany before Jon like Jason in a Friday the 13th movie.

Jon calls Dany "Dany" as a term of endearment after the writers made a point to show us that she did not like him to call her that.

Yara being cool with Sansa and the North getting independence while the Iron Islands went back into the six kingdoms after Dany gave the Iron born independence. This was just beyond stupid and inexcusable.

Davos suggesting Unsullied start their own house. Did he forget they cannot have children? Did he forget the Reach was already given to the Wildlings?

Treatment of Tyrion and Jon by the Unsullied. Whole sequence with Greyworm standing there like some dumbass in a Mel Brooks movie doing whatever it is the other people tell him to do, even though it doesn't make any sense and is against his interest.

Why the hell is there still a night's watch? What happened to the Dothraki? Why would they be okay with releasing Jon to the night's watch assuming you somehow convince the Unsullied to be cool with it? Why didn't the Dothraki have any representation?
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Redstone
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2:56p, 5/20/19
AG
7+ years of build-up for no pay-off, or a pay-off of seconds.

As I was detailing this morning (approx. 7am, please review), I'm fine with it, and happy to see Bran as King.
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Sex Panther
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In reply to bangobango • 3:04p, 5/20/19
AG
bangobango said:
And did Jon go in there to kill her or was he on the fence? They have him standing there while she's giving the speech to the Dothraki and Unsullied, but he can't understand what she's saying. He wouldn't know that she said she is going to invade Winterfell. When he left Tyrion's room he was committed to sticking with Dany is my queen. Then Tyrion mentions his sisters.

I guess Jon killed her b/c of his sisters? But that's not the conversation he had with her. If that was the motive for killing her, it seems he would say something to her about what she planned to do with Sansa, but rather he seemed to be focusing on her motives for scorching King Landing, like he was hoping she would give a justification for it.

They really left a lot for interpretation between those two. For example, I am still not sure if Jon was refusing her b/c they're related or b/c he didn't know what would happen with them and the throne. Why did she think he would be cool with her after she did that to Kings Landing. I mean, the way she acted like she didn't do anything wrong showed a startling lack of self-awareness, which has not been Dany's problem. She has always examined her actions, and she acted like she was surprised that Jon had a problem with what she did. That was more like psychosis than rational decision making. Who the **** knows?


Jon was on the fence and had the conversation with her. She told him they'd build a better world, and he said something like "Why do we get to choose?" and then he followed it up with "What about everyone else?" and she responded, "They don't get a choice."

When she said that, you could see his demeanor change, and he realized what he had to do. She was too far gone, and even though she thought she was right and destined to do this... in reality, she was a dictator and would make people succumb to her. I think it was right then and there he knew what had to be done.
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TyHolden
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3:05p, 5/20/19
AG
Did bran insinuate he was going to warg into drogon when he said he would find him?
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wannaggie
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In reply to benchmark • 3:08p, 5/20/19
benchmark said:
Fenrir said:
I don't know, Tyrion being excluded from Sam's book for reasons unknown was pretty unintentionally funny as well. I'm not sure there is a single individual that made more of an impact on the war of the 5 Kings as Tyrion. It makes zero sense to exclude him.
Especially since his speech helped decide the new King! Tyrion probably was in more scenes over the course of the series than any other actor...just bizarre.
Every author eventually falls prey to the vanity of writing themselves into their work.
Tyrion has clearly been the GRRM avatar in this story.
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bangobango
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3:13p, 5/20/19
AG
Okay, now that it is over, I want to talk about where I think this show went really, really wrong. I posted about this earlier with spoiler tags, but I want to address it again now that everyone knows what happens.

I think what we got at the end is essentially where Martin is going with the books (minus Bran as the king), but I think the how and why he gets there was completely misunderstood by the writers, or more likely, the producers.

Thinking of the mechanics of this story, the writer had created a prophecy in this story about Azor Ahai, or the Prince who was Promised. A big part of this prophecy is Lightbringer, the sword that was forged by plunging it into the heart of Azor's love, Nissa Nissa.

Early on in this television series, the prophecy and Lightbringer played large roles and were discussed often. It is also emphasized (until last couple of seasons) that magic requires SACRIFICE. The greater the sacrifice, the greater the magic that can be produced. And some sacrifice is better than others, King's blood, for example, contains a lot of power. Examples of this are Drogo being sacrificed to birth the Dragons. Shireen being burned alive in an attempt to win the war with Ramsey.

This concept was completely abandoned in this last season, with Melisandre doing great magic with no sacrifice (lighting the swords, lighting the pit).

The idea that I think was always being set-up was that it would require a great sacrifice to create whatever magic was needed to defeat the White Walkers, that it couldn't be done with just man and dragon alone.

So, that being a case, there needed to be a scenario created where a great sacrifice could be made while you STILL LIKED THE PROTAGONIST.

And Jon Snow is the protagonist of Martin's story. He is the song of ice and fire. And Dany is his love. And she is a queen. She is his Nissa Nissa.

In the context of a six episode final season, the story that would have been closer to what I think Martin envisioned would have had Dany refusing to help with the White Walkers until after she secured the iron throne. I think there is evidence in the books that she will start hearing voices and eventually go crazy, but regardless, her "turn" would come sometime prior to the battle with the white walkers. And thus, Jon would be forced to kill her prior to the battle with the white walkers, which would've crated Lightbringer and given him the power to defeat the REAL threat in this story.

I think the producers did not do this b/c I think they did not want to have three episodes without Dany in them. I also think the reason they gave Arya the NK kill is b/c she HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE TO DO THIS SEASON, and those dumbasses said, well since Jon kills Dany, we will let Arya kill the NK.

I think this season would have made more people happy and stayed truer to the themes of the previous season if they would have had the battle at KL in episode three or four, have the white walkers advancing south and destroying people and laying waste. Events happen in such a way that Jon has to kill Dany, the Dragons are gone, maybe dothraki and Unsullied gone too, it is impossible odds of humans vs white walker, but whatever magic is supposed to be "lightbringer" is able to defeat the white walkers in a last second "hail mary" type situation that ends up stopping the white walker threat (at least for next 1,000 years or so). Maybe even Jon sacrifices himself to stop the white walkers.

But we don't get something like that, b/c we gotta worry about that Q rating or whatever we think is going to make us trend on twitter.
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chase128
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In reply to TyHolden • 3:15p, 5/20/19
AG
That's how I interpreted it. Drogon would be a threat to people, so he's probably trying to contain him. I would hope so at least...

Would really suck for Bran to get hyped up on dragon power and burn his enemies...
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TheVarian
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In reply to AgShaun00 • 3:20p, 5/20/19
AG
AgShaun00 said:
tk for tu juan said:
FtBendTxAg said:
This will go down in history as an all time worst finale of a major show
Nope, that belongs to HIMYM
Dexter


Dexter for sure.

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benchmark
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In reply to wannaggie • 3:21p, 5/20/19
AG
wannaggie said:
benchmark said:
Fenrir said:
I don't know, Tyrion being excluded from Sam's book for reasons unknown was pretty unintentionally funny as well. I'm not sure there is a single individual that made more of an impact on the war of the 5 Kings as Tyrion. It makes zero sense to exclude him.
Especially since his speech helped decide the new King! Tyrion probably was in more scenes over the course of the series than any other actor...just bizarre.
Every author eventually falls prey to the vanity of writing themselves into their work.
Tyrion has clearly been the GRRM avatar in this story.
Hmm. Not buying it. Sam and Bran are supposed to be keepers of the history and records. It makes no sense for the one who is in charge of recording events to purposefully leave out an influential person. I could see Cersei pulling a stunt like that because she hated Tyrion, but not Sam.
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JJxvi
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3:23p, 5/20/19
AG
I agree that Jon killing Dany is the Azor Ahai moment and likely comes before the final battle against the Others. I'm not sure if they did it intentionally (but I assume they did) but they also kinda had Jon awaken a dragon out of stone just before that scene also.
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digital_ag
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3:28p, 5/20/19
AG
Even the stupid Kings Guard book mentioned Tyrion as Joffrey's killer.

Tyrion played a pivotal role in literally every major event since the death of Bobby B.

Catalyst for the Wo5K when captured by Cat.
Hand of the king to Joffrey and masterminded the defense of The Battle of the Blackwater
"Murdered Joffrey". His trial was a big deal.
Killed Tywin
Hand of the King to the last dragon.


Him not being mentioned in the cringe meta-book was bafflingly stupid in an episode full of gaffes.
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Quad Dog
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In reply to bangobango • 3:31p, 5/20/19
AG
I for one think that Jon solving everything with a magic, deus ex machina, sword would have been pretty lame too.
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pagerman @ work
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3:36p, 5/20/19
AG
I didn't mind the episode honestly. I had a few issues (like why anyone cared what the Unsullied and Grey Worm thought about anything), but one puzzling thing that just rang hollow to me was why in God's name anyone would ever make Bron the master of coin?

Given the utter destruction of KL, the Red Keep, etc. and the known financial problems that the crown was having prior to all that, what skills does a mercenary with a fairly unquenchable appetite for prostitutes bring to that particular position?

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a major complaint that "ruined the show for me" or aything silly like that, just a question.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
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Sex Panther
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In reply to pagerman @ work • 3:37p, 5/20/19
AG
pagerman @ work said:
I didn't mind the episode honestly. I had a few issues (like why anyone cared what the Unsullied and Grey Worm thought about anything), but one puzzling thing that just rang hollow to me was why in God's name anyone would ever make Bron the master of coin?

It was just fan service because he was a fan favorite. Although I love that Bronn ended up one of the biggest winners of all. He went from a complete nobody mercenary to the Lord of ****ing Highgarden and Master of Coin.
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bangobango
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In reply to Sex Panther • 3:38p, 5/20/19
AG
Sex Panther said:
bangobango said:
And did Jon go in there to kill her or was he on the fence? They have him standing there while she's giving the speech to the Dothraki and Unsullied, but he can't understand what she's saying. He wouldn't know that she said she is going to invade Winterfell. When he left Tyrion's room he was committed to sticking with Dany is my queen. Then Tyrion mentions his sisters.

I guess Jon killed her b/c of his sisters? But that's not the conversation he had with her. If that was the motive for killing her, it seems he would say something to her about what she planned to do with Sansa, but rather he seemed to be focusing on her motives for scorching King Landing, like he was hoping she would give a justification for it.

They really left a lot for interpretation between those two. For example, I am still not sure if Jon was refusing her b/c they're related or b/c he didn't know what would happen with them and the throne. Why did she think he would be cool with her after she did that to Kings Landing. I mean, the way she acted like she didn't do anything wrong showed a startling lack of self-awareness, which has not been Dany's problem. She has always examined her actions, and she acted like she was surprised that Jon had a problem with what she did. That was more like psychosis than rational decision making. Who the **** knows?


Jon was on the fence and had the conversation with her. She told him they'd build a better world, and he said something like "Why do we get to choose?" and then he followed it up with "What about everyone else?" and she responded, "They don't get a choice."

When she said that, you could see his demeanor change, and he realized what he had to do. She was too far gone, and even though she thought she was right and destined to do this... in reality, she was a dictator and would make people succumb to her. I think it was right then and there he knew what had to be done.
Yeah, I remember that, but that is part of how terrible the writing is.

Literally five minutes before that conversation, Jon talking to Tyrion in Tyrion's cell, paraphrased:

Tyrion: You think Dany will stop at executing me? You are the rightful heir to the throne and a threat.

Jon: That's the QUEEN'S decision.

Tyrion: You think Sansa will accept Dany as the Queen?

Jon: Sansa doesn't get to choose.

Tyrion: No, but you do.


Jon goes to Dany, and Jon decides to kill her because she says essentially what Jon just said to Tyrion? And then Jon decides that he gets to choose what is right or wrong unilaterally and kill for it, which is what he is supposedly killing Dany for?

You see how this doesn't work?

If Dany is evil for deciding what is good or bad (essentially, who lives or dies) then how is Jon's decision any better? And then at the end, they just put another person in that same position (Bran) as king.

Looking at it from this perspective, and bringing in these specific themes, you can justify Jon's murder by the Night's Watch. They thought that they were preventing something terrible by killing him and they thought they were saving countless lives by protecting them from the Wildlings. They had the opportunity to choose and they made their choice to protect the greater good, just like Jon.

It is just more example of how poor this ending was thought out. At least they had the thought to show Jon questioning his decision.
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Liquid Wrench
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In reply to wannaggie • 3:40p, 5/20/19

Quote:
Every author eventually falls prey to the vanity of writing themselves into their work.

Tyrion has clearly been the GRRM avatar in this story.
Not Sam?
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bangobango
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In reply to Quad Dog • 3:40p, 5/20/19
AG
Quad Dog said:
nm
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MW03
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3:42p, 5/20/19
AG
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to bangobango • 3:45p, 5/20/19
AG
I noticed that, and actually liked it.

The way I took it is, he realized that Dany's words had been coming out of his mouth. He knew at that moment he was on the wrong side, and knew what he had to do.
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bangobango
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In reply to Quad Dog • 3:46p, 5/20/19
AG
Quad Dog said:
I for one think that Jon solving everything with a magic, deus ex machina, sword would have been pretty lame too.

Some of you think every time there is a last minute save that it is Deus Ex Machina. That terms is supposed to be reserved for situations when the save is not earned or foreshadowed, where it literally comes out of nowhere to save the heroes. If the Lord of Light suddenly appeared on the battle field and laid waste to all the undead, then that would be a rather on-point example of Deus Ex Machina in GOT.

If you spend seven seasons foreshadowing a powerful weapon that can help the characters fight off the dead, however, and you outline the steps that have to be completed to invoke that weapon, and then the characters do those steps and find that powerful weapon and that powerful weapon helps the characters actually fight off the dead, that's called good writing, not Deus Ex Machina.

Do you think the a-bomb was Deus Ex Machina for WWII?
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Atreides Ornithopter
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In reply to bangobango • 3:51p, 5/20/19
AG
bangobango said:
Do you think the a-bomb was Deus Ex Machina for WWII?
It kind of was from the Japanese point of view.
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wannaggie
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In reply to benchmark • 3:51p, 5/20/19
benchmark said:
wannaggie said:
benchmark said:
Fenrir said:
I don't know, Tyrion being excluded from Sam's book for reasons unknown was pretty unintentionally funny as well. I'm not sure there is a single individual that made more of an impact on the war of the 5 Kings as Tyrion. It makes zero sense to exclude him.
Especially since his speech helped decide the new King! Tyrion probably was in more scenes over the course of the series than any other actor...just bizarre.
Every author eventually falls prey to the vanity of writing themselves into their work.
Tyrion has clearly been the GRRM avatar in this story.
Hmm. Not buying it. Sam and Bran are supposed to be keepers of the history and records. It makes no sense for the one who is in charge of recording events to purposefully leave out an influential person. I could see Cersei pulling a stunt like that because she hated Tyrion, but not Sam.
That's why Tyrion gets left out of "A Song Of Ice And Fire" -- it's an authorial joke (or unintentional psychological slip).

Tyrion, the character, is the most prolific character in the GRRM books, because in the first half of the story he's Living The Dream of every mom's-basement fantasy nerd -- the Imp is the childish Id of the Comic Bookstore Guy -- yeah he's physically unattractive, can't throw a spiral, probably would be out of breath walking up some stairs, but he's learned to accept being an outcast and spend his time whoring and drinking and being a Party Animal. He's a lothario, he's got Game with the ladies, and whenever he doesn't have Game, he's big ballin with cash yo. He's also super smart and witty and like tooootally way smarter than everyone else around him.

Does that seem clearer?

So it's the writers' joke that Tyrion, the character who is the projection of GRRM, original author, is all over the 21st century books "A Song Of Ice And Fire", but he gets completely left out of the fictional "Song Of Ice And Fire" inside the story, because inside the story he's just another character, not the author.
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Fenrir
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In reply to wannaggie • 3:53p, 5/20/19
Since when has Tyrion been the projection of Martin I to the story?
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annie88
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3:55p, 5/20/19
AG
I wonder how the books will end.
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Old Tom Morris
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3:58p, 5/20/19
I think the books will end very closely if not identically to this, but that the path to get there will be quite a bit different.
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wannaggie
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In reply to Sex Panther • 4:00p, 5/20/19
Sex Panther said:
pagerman @ work said:
I didn't mind the episode honestly. I had a few issues (like why anyone cared what the Unsullied and Grey Worm thought about anything), but one puzzling thing that just rang hollow to me was why in God's name anyone would ever make Bron the master of coin?

It was just fan service because he was a fan favorite. Although I love that Bronn ended up one of the biggest winners of all. He went from a complete nobody mercenary to the Lord of ****ing Highgarden and Master of Coin.
Which goes back to the schizoid mess of a lot of the TV series ending.
That whole democratic-ish Jedi Council meeting where they decide suddenly out of nowhere to calmly discuss who would make a good king and then vote on it with Aye/Nay, and it's unanimous, is only rational if we are to suppose the surviving characters Learned A Valuable Lesson About Using Violence To Solve Problems.

And then, at the end, Bronn becomes Lord of the most important region in the entire continent (oh did you plan on feeding all those soldiers and merchants and citizens? Nice heartland I got here, shame if something were to happen to it...). And how did Bronn get there? Um... because he was willing to amorally use violence to solve problems for whomever paid him?

What's worse, a girl who has killed a lot of innocent people because she thinks they hate her and it's that time of the month -- or a guy who has killed a lot of innocent people because he likes collecting shiny pieces of metal?



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bangobango
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 4:00p, 5/20/19
AG
Brian Earl Spilner said:
I noticed that, and actually liked it.

The way I took it is, he realized that Dany's words had been coming out of his mouth. He knew at that moment he was on the wrong side, and knew what he had to do.

You can't do both and be internally consistent. And that's exactly what Jon did.

Jon murdered Dany because he thought it was for the greater good. He thought it was for the greater good because Dany thought it was okay to murder people for the greater good.
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bonfarr
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In reply to bangobango • 4:07p, 5/20/19
AG
bangobango said:
Quad Dog said:
I for one think that Jon solving everything with a magic, deus ex machina, sword would have been pretty lame too.

Some of you think every time there is a last minute save that it is Deus Ex Machina. That terms is supposed to be reserved for situations when the save is not earned or foreshadowed, where it literally comes out of nowhere to save the heroes. If the Lord of Light suddenly appeared on the battle field and laid waste to all the undead, then that would be a rather on-point example of Deus Ex Machina in GOT.

If you spend seven seasons foreshadowing a powerful weapon that can help the characters fight off the dead, however, and you outline the steps that have to be completed to invoke that weapon, and then the characters do those steps and find that powerful weapon and that powerful weapon helps the characters actually fight off the dead, that's called good writing, not Deus Ex Machina.

Do you think the a-bomb was Deus Ex Machina for WWII?


Correct, think Captain Marvel in Endgame for an example of Deus Ex Machina.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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4:09p, 5/20/19
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https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/20/media/game-of-thrones-finale-ratings/index.html

19.3 million viewers

Before the season, I predicted 20m for the finale. So close!

Still, pretty good prediction, no?
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to bangobango • 4:10p, 5/20/19
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I see your point, but Jon murdered 1 person. Dany murdered hundreds of thousands, and was talking about doing the same to every city in Westeros.
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Dro07
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4:10p, 5/20/19
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Who keeps breaking Texags... it's annoying stop it
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bangobango
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 4:17p, 5/20/19
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Brian Earl Spilner said:
I see your point, but Jon murdered 1 person. Dany murdered hundreds of thousands, and was talking about doing the same to every city in Westeros.
yeah.

I mean, on one hand it kind of works, but it's just frustrating because it seems like there are a lot of other ways they could've gone with that and I don't know why they couldn't be bothered to send a clear message over what makes him pull the trigger.

They could've had her kind of very obviously insane. Or they could've had her talk about her plans to kill a lot more innocent people, or to kill his sisters, or something. Instead, they kind of make it seem like if he'd just get back with her he might be able to temper her darker side.

And I am okay with them putting it in this morally shady ground like they did, but tease that out a little more and really make us think about it, don't just gloss over it b/c then it just seems like a mistake.
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wannaggie
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In reply to Fenrir • 4:17p, 5/20/19
Fenrir said:
Since when has Tyrion been the projection of Martin I to the story?
Since the 3000 pages where the author treats all of Tyrion's passages and thoughts as the most fully realized and sympathetic out of all the characters.

Again, I'm talking about the writing of the character. It's very obvious from the way the narrative voice gives him the microphone and a platform to stand on, that the author feels and personalizes more of Tyrion than anyone else. He's given the most complex layers, he's given the widest spectrum of possibility -- is he just a drunken sex addict? Is he an evil scheming Lannister? Is he a kind-hearted man who cares about the weak and innocent because he knows what it's like to be persecuted? Is he out for Truth, Justice, and the Westerosi way? Does he want to save King's Landing because he loves the city for its marvels and delights? Is he a masterful genuis unparalleled in the entire Western world? Is he a decadent hedonistic coward and a weakling, or is he actually quite brave and willing to pick up a sword and fight to defend his side? Is he a lover, or is he a *****-murderer?

There are lots of Evil characters in the books, and there are no Good characters in the books, Tyrion by far goes the longest way into the story with the reader unsure of where exactly he will end up in the end.

TV Sam is pretty close to character of Book Sam. He's there to give Jon a sidekick and help the reader find out The Mechanism For How Things Work in White Walkerlandia, but as a written character he's pretty vanilla soy latte.
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