StringerBell said:

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maybe its stockholm syndrome but im starting to find myself agreeing with bobinator

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Same here. I swear I disagreed with him in the past on most points but he is really making a lot of sense. I feel like we are all making a lot of progress here. Good talk y'all, good talk.

Has anyone done a poll of if we think any crazy **** is going to happen in the final episode or if it's going to be something fairly straightforward?

Would Dany killing Tyrion, and Jon killing Dany equate to crazy? Or is that straightforward?

Yeah I think that's pretty straightforward.

I guess to me it's either

A) Some combination of Dany/Tyrion/Jon/Sansa/Arya killing each other or whatever

B) Some kind of magic/fantasy element still in play.

Quinn said:

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bobinator has been doing the Lord's work on this thread.

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It's slow at work this time of year.

Yeah, I find it pretty unlikely also, just wondering if anyone thinks it's possible and what they're thinking.

Quote:

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I'm not saying Dany used that rationale specifically, but she did talk about ending the wars by giving the people a true Queen. She did know about the peace in Westeros after Aegon's conquest. She knew she wouldn't be loved, so what she had to have was fear (same as Aegon). As I said, I think in the end, she felt it was the only option. I think she was torn and didn't like it, but she didn't see any other way.

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I agree with this. Aegon was luck enough to be surrounded by his two warrior sister's who agreed in what he did. Dany has one general who agrees with Grey Worm, but Jon & Tyrion certainly aren't going to go along with this.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Euron was a terrible, over-the-top, nothing character. Not funny, not charismatic, annoying, ******y, and nobody liked him.

I guess they had to give Jaime a boss fight before reaching Cersei, but it felt kinda forced to me. The ONE survivor of the Iron Fleet and he washes up exactly where Jaime is?

I wish he had died more painfully. Actually, I wish he had died unceremoniously on the ship burned by Drogon.

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I agree with that. It's just such a shame because Euron is such a more intimidating force in the books, if they had played him true to that version, it might have been believable that he had bailed out of the ships at the last second and was a REAL bossfight for Jamie.

I don't blame the actor though, I think he did what he could with what they gave him.

StringerBell said:

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maybe its stockholm syndrome but im starting to find myself agreeing with bobinator

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lol.

well there is nothing wrong with saying it could have been better - although many of the proposed improvements I find even more ham handed then the original problems.

even i think it could have been done better.

take the idea proposed by a few that it's Tyrion's treason and Jamie's release that triggers her... a few people debated this a few ways a few pages back and how to play that out.

To me that's entirely appropriate and can be made even simpler.


Assume Dany does not YET know about Jamie's release - but given what she said to Tyrion about his next failure would be his last ......everything proceeds as we saw up until the dragon is landed and the bells are about to be rung and the army drops their swords, etc..... the only differences are:

1. make Dany close enough to see the Red Keep clearly to identify people
2. back in the Red Keep before that we have seen Jamie and Cersei reunion (so this happens a little earlier he made it up there before the real destruction began)

Now

at that moment when Dany is waiting... Jamie and Cersei walk out to the parapet or whatever overlooking the city and Dany sees them, and Cersei smirks

the bells ring and Dany looks around, the army is tense but not just walking away, the bells are ringing but nobody is coming out, could be a trap

she thinks and you see on her face - that sonnofa***** (Tyrion) let Jamie go and starts to get angry - maybe even glances back to where Tyrion is and mutters "TYRION"

just then Qyburn had one last scorpion on the upper levels behind Jamie and Cersei and they part and he fires at Drogon a sitting duck.

Dany yells DRACARYS and Drogon torches the projectile heading right at him disintegrating the shaft part and the spear part falls clattering to the ground.

She looks up really angry now

the troops saw Cersei fire and grab for their weapons as Greyworm launches his spear and the fight resumes

Dany takes off on Drogon right for the Red Keep as they are reloading the scorpion but Jamie and Cersei run and head down the stairs.

Dany torches the Red Keep where they were and begins destroying it around them.

then as they continue down she keeps destroying more and more in furious anger. She starts destroying the city as there was no surrender in her eyes

the Cleganebowl still takes place on the stairs, etc. Jamie and Cersei go past it on their way down and are underground so Dany never knows where ... even let the collapse happen and kill them.

So this is just making her anger at betrayal even more obvious but it didn't take much.

I never had a problem with the idea that it could have been better, I had a problem with you could not see that coming. I could but this does make it more obvious I suppose - but definitely more justified too.



That treason did happen - and I still wonder if she knew ahead of time.

It may be a cheap copout that they even have her say in E6 that she knew about Jamie and that was on Tyrion and it's the Lannister way and Cersei was not surrendering, etc. Would not surprise me if they try to justify it after the fact. They may have simply wanted the shock value and then to justify it later. Poor execution if so but maybe.

bobinator said:

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I disagree here. I think this was always the idea, which is why it's so tragic. Dany sets out to free the world from oppression, and through a series of decisions and small steps, each of them perfectly logical in the moment, she becomes exactly what she set out to defeat.

She places good people around her to provide honest feedback, creating a council that isn't just full of 'yes-men.' And they fail her.

She tries as hard as possible not to become what she set out to defeat, but she does anyway. She can't avoid it. That's more or less the message of this whole show. You can't overcome evil with kind words and deeds. You make compromises along the way until, without realizing it, you've become no better than those you plan to unseat.

It's a beautifully tragic story, and it's been told perfectly until (for some of us) right at the very end.

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What was the logic of burning civilians after she won? There is no logic to it. If the writers had done something to put the civilians between Dany and the throne it would make sense. If the civilians had attacked her, it would have made sense. As the show wrote it, she had won the throne without harming civilians. Her advisers didn't fail her. She makes a conscious choice on her own to turn evil for no reason. I think GRRM will make her character arc be a tragic story, but will do it in a different way. One that is "bitter sweet." Something where she has to make a choice. If she wants to throne, she has to kill civilians/burn the city. The way the show did it, there is nothing bitter sweet about her character. She is just evil now.

The logic is showing the rest of westros what will happen if they stand against Dany.

The commoners will die with the lords.

M.C. Swag said:

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Sex Panther said:

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Can a book reader give insight into Euron's character from the books? I saw a video on Youtube that said he was way cooler in the description but I didn't actually watch it.

He seems like he could be a cool character, and I actually like the actor who portrays him.

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He's much cooler. His quest is to be a god. He wears an entire suit of valyrian steel armor. He has a horn called 'dragon-binder' that can enslave a dragon to his will (supposedly). He did all kinds of messed up stuff like sleep with his brother's wife, killed a bunch of priests, etc. His entire persona is legit crazy person..and not this shallow poon-hound that we get.

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He also knocks up his side-piece, strips her naked, cuts out her tongue & ties her to the prow of his ship

Dany dies, jon doesnt want the throne. Gendry is king! Already placed my bet on bovada.

I think you're reading that post wrong. I was talking about all of her decisions up until that final one.

Like, you're saying what I've been saying this entire time.

AustinAg2K said:

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bobinator said:

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I disagree here. I think this was always the idea, which is why it's so tragic. Dany sets out to free the world from oppression, and through a series of decisions and small steps, each of them perfectly logical in the moment, she becomes exactly what she set out to defeat.

She places good people around her to provide honest feedback, creating a council that isn't just full of 'yes-men.' And they fail her.

She tries as hard as possible not to become what she set out to defeat, but she does anyway. She can't avoid it. That's more or less the message of this whole show. You can't overcome evil with kind words and deeds. You make compromises along the way until, without realizing it, you've become no better than those you plan to unseat.

It's a beautifully tragic story, and it's been told perfectly until (for some of us) right at the very end.

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What was the logic of burning civilians after she won? There is no logic to it. If the writers had done something to put the civilians between Dany and the throne it would make sense. If the civilians had attacked her, it would have made sense. As the show wrote it, she had won the throne without harming civilians. Her advisers didn't fail her. She makes a conscious choice on her own to turn evil for no reason. I think GRRM will make her character arc be a tragic story, but will do it in a different way. One that is "bitter sweet." Something where she has to make a choice. If she wants to throne, she has to kill civilians/burn the city. The way the show did it, there is nothing bitter sweet about her character. She is just evil now.

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Not to mention...if it weren't for some conveniently collapsed bricks, Jamie and Cersei would have escaped. There was no logic or reason in the way she snapped or way she proceeded to attack KL.

wangus12 said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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Sex Panther said:

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Can a book reader give insight into Euron's character from the books? I saw a video on Youtube that said he was way cooler in the description but I didn't actually watch it.

He seems like he could be a cool character, and I actually like the actor who portrays him.

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He's much cooler. His quest is to be a god. He wears an entire suit of valyrian steel armor. He has a horn called 'dragon-binder' that can enslave a dragon to his will (supposedly). He did all kinds of messed up stuff like sleep with his brother's wife, killed a bunch of priests, etc. His entire persona is legit crazy person..and not this shallow poon-hound that we get.

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He also knocks up his side-piece, strips her naked, cuts out her tongue & ties her to the prow of his ship

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Spoiler for book that hasnt been released.

redline248 said:

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Sex Panther said:

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Can a book reader give insight into Euron's character from the books? I saw a video on Youtube that said he was way cooler in the description but I didn't actually watch it.

He seems like he could be a cool character, and I actually like the actor who portrays him.

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Been a while, but my recollection is that he is way more mysterious (because he was introduced late and has limited page-time, so far). He's been all over the place, cuts the tongues out of his crew b/c he's paranoid, I guess. He collects a lot of relics and "magical" items. Instead of siding with Cersei he instead raids some of the smaller cities on the western coast. He wins the Iron Islands over Yara b/c he has a horn that supposedly can bring dragons under the control of whoever uses it.

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It's been a while since I've read the books, but doesn't he also set sail to go win over Dany not Cersei?

bobinator said:

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Yeah I think that's pretty straightforward.

I guess to me it's either

A) Some combination of Dany/Tyrion/Jon/Sansa/Arya killing each other or whatever

B) Some kind of magic/fantasy still waiting to be OP'd by D&D

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Jon and Dany strolling through the streets of charred bodies.


Tyrion when Dany asks if anyone knows how Jamie Lannister escaped.


Sansa, when asked when she's going to bend the knee


New Prince of Dorne meeting the Mad Queen

bobinator said:

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Has anyone done a poll of if we think any crazy **** is going to happen in the final episode or if it's going to be something fairly straightforward?

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At this point, isn't crazy stuff fairly straight forward for the show?

bobinator said:

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I think you're reading that post wrong. I was talking about all of her decisions up until that final one.

Like, you're saying what I've been saying this entire time.

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Yeah, I think I probably was. Based of your history on this thread, I think we are probably in agreement on the last episode.

AustinAg2K said:

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redline248 said:

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Sex Panther said:

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Can a book reader give insight into Euron's character from the books? I saw a video on Youtube that said he was way cooler in the description but I didn't actually watch it.

He seems like he could be a cool character, and I actually like the actor who portrays him.

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Been a while, but my recollection is that he is way more mysterious (because he was introduced late and has limited page-time, so far). He's been all over the place, cuts the tongues out of his crew b/c he's paranoid, I guess. He collects a lot of relics and "magical" items. Instead of siding with Cersei he instead raids some of the smaller cities on the western coast. He wins the Iron Islands over Yara b/c he has a horn that supposedly can bring dragons under the control of whoever uses it.

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It's been a while since I've read the books, but doesn't he also set sail to go win over Dany not Cersei?

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He sends his brother Victarion to make a marriage proposal for him.

M.C. Swag said:

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Sex Panther said:

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Can a book reader give insight into Euron's character from the books? I saw a video on Youtube that said he was way cooler in the description but I didn't actually watch it.

He seems like he could be a cool character, and I actually like the actor who portrays him.

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He's much cooler. His quest is to be a god. He wears an entire suit of valyrian steel armor. He has a horn called 'dragon-binder' that can enslave a dragon to his will (supposedly). He did all kinds of messed up stuff like sleep with his brother's wife, killed a bunch of priests, etc. His entire persona is legit crazy person..and not this shallow poon-hound that we get.

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They combined two brothers into one character for simplicity. One is a warrior type, the other is a mystery pirate type.

bobinator said:

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This may be giving the writers too much credit, but presumably Dany isn't going to let anyone get anywhere near her other than Greyworm right?

And literally the first thing we ever see Arya do on this show is hit a bullseye with an arrow...

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I have said the same thing about not letting anyone close to her.

Also, good point on Arya. Also, remember the first thing she was seen doing after she killed the Night King?

Shooting arrows. HMM