combat wombat said:

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I liked the episode. I didn't think her turn to MQ as too fast but I could see why others might feel that way.but

By the way, I've always been a bigger supporter of the Starks than of Dany's.

Did Jon ever PROMISE not to tell his family? I don't think he did. I think she's wrong to oppose his stronger claim and want him to keep it secret.

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Same. The Starks were always my favorites and the House that I wanted to survive/come out on top (not necessarily winning the throne, but keeping/ruling the North). When I was in high school reading the books back in the early '00's, I pictured Jon and Dany ending up together before R+L=J really gained set in.

But I'll take a Stark ending any day of the week over Dany, but as I said earlier I wanted a happier ending, mainly for Jon.

Wes97 said:

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The more I think about this last episode the more I come to the conclusion that the decision to leave out the "3 betrayals" prophesy from the books on the tv show was a mistake.

I understand why D&D left it out. It would have probably made things a little too obvious. But leaving it in would have explained her "turn" and avoided some of the backlash they are getting on doing it so quickly.

When they had that scene with Dany & Tyrion and she said Jon had betrayed her.... it seemed 100% obvious to me what was coming after that. After all the first two betrayals led to the death of her husband (Khal Drogo) and her baby. Another betrayal would explain her state of mind going into this battle better, I think.

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To be honest, I think people would still be mad, no matter how obvious they were regarding Dany's eventual turn.

I didn't realize how big of a subset of the fanbase has held her up as some sort of benevolent heroine that clearly was going to rule at the end and make the world a better place. Those people have just had their dream ending destroyed and people are lashing out. I don't think there is any appeasing these people no matter how obvious the buildup to the eventual turn was.

I'm actually kind of surprised that she was ever held in high regard. She's done some pretty ****ed up things in past seasons. And not always necessary.

I don't know how many people have to say it before it sinks in, but most (maybe even all) aren't really upset about her going MQ. The issue is the rush/randomness of it, especially after hearing D&D's explanation. People have mentioned that any number of small tweaks would have made it fit better.

PeekingDuck said:

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I'm actually kind of surprised that she was ever held in high regard. She's done some pretty ****ed up things in past seasons. And not always necessary.

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A lot of the earlier seasons made her come across as a bit of brat to me.

Watched it again. Really fantastic. While i agree with some of the tyrion/varys poor writing, and the whole series end a tad rushed, (and. 4 was just moronic) bottom line 5 was epic, sets up hope for one of the great endings. Hopefully.

Man, it took a power session to catch back up on this thread, here is my summary of previous 10 pages.













YWIA

Wish I could find this on youtube https://old.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bo5avw/this_did_not_age_well_at_all/

Had my re-watch tonight with my wife and parents who were visiting and hadn't seen it yet.

Not trying to make a statement or stir the pot, but this might be my favorite episode of the entire series. And yes I honestly think it was that good.

It was beautifully shot. And I hate the comparisons to Michael Bay. There was not one scene or shot where too much was going on to be able to process it all. It perfectly built up the tension and angst and anger and just let it flow. I really thought it was close to perfect. My only real gripe was crazy dewsh Euron pirate (terrible character) washing up right where Jamie was. Lame.

I am completely satisfied with the buildup to Dany going nuclear. It's truly a WTF moment but also kind of not if you catch all the subtle build up over the season and not so subtle build up last season and this season.

Here's another thought I had on that after my re-watch. We've beat to death the reality that Dany is angry, frustrated, and feels scorned, unloved, and unappreciated/honored for what she did at Winterfell. We all get it. Then she loses another dragon and Missandie is executed. Triple up on the anger. Cut to the siege of KL. The bell is ringing but who breaks the momentary pause in fighting? Grey Worm. And when he does both the Northern/Vale troops and the Unsullied go beserk with bloodlust and keep killing Lannisters. Some are so overcome with bloodlust they start raping and pillaging (this was often spoke of in the books and series). War inertia. And truthfully, the North, the Vale, and now certainly the Unsullied, absolutely hate the Lannisters, have no love for KL, and want blood. Take it a step further. Towards the end of the episode Arya is trying to help evacuate people and has a run in with Dotharaki still conquering. It's what they do. It's always been what they do. They assault, they overcome, they kill, they rape, they take slaves, and they plunder. Not news. And we see them doing that in KL.

The Westerosi are nott Dany's people. The Unsullied are. The Dothraki are. The Unsullied were all onboard with razing KL to the ground. The Dothraki were even more so. Dany, IMO, unleashed her Dothraki side. The Mare that wound mount the world. The side of her that was imprinted not only as a Targ but more so as a Dothraki. She conquered fully the way the Dothraki would.

I am not saying she will not regret it. She surely will. But in light of five books and seven previous seasons, I don't think this is lazy writing or bad character development at all. I just think a lot of fans are pissed that she didn't turn out to be the cute little (or smokin hot) princess they thought she would or should be.

Absolutely loved it.

Whew. Finally to the end.

Loved it. Loved it all.

Varys - giving it all to the end. Realizing Ned had it right.

Tyrion - figuring out what life working for a Targ is like and understanding his brother a bit more.

Jamie - realizing he's not worthy of Brienne and heading back to be together in death with the woman he's loved his whole life damn the consequences.

Cercei - all that and still lose the game.

Jon - sometimes you have to do what is right even if you don't want it. Steward not Ranger. Spy. Lord Commander. Dead. King in the North. King of the Seven?

Arya - revenge is empty without family. Being alone in the holocaust I think reminded her of how alone she was after Neds execution.

Dany - 3rd betrayal while not nearly developed enough, pushed her over the edge. She wasn't willing to give up revenge on those who killed her father and brother, banished her mother, sent assassins and tried to rule HER kingdom.

Was it perfect? No. But I can certainly see most of these threads coming in the books too. It'll be better - more developed and evolved. But this we have now.

Interesting we were posting very similar thoughts at the exact same time.

CapCityAg89 said:

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Interesting we were posting very similar thoughts at the exact same time.

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It seems all the complainers just want it wrapped up however they planned it out to be wrapped up. I am so happy that I have been at least 50% wrong on how it would end.

Flawless? hell no.

Entertaining and intriguing as F? Yep.

Sad to see it will be over soon.

The actor who played Varys didn't like the writing the last couple of seasons, at least with regards to his character:

https://people.com/tv/game-of-thrones-conleth-hill-varys-dropped-off-edge/

Quote:

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"It just felt like after season 6, I kind of dropped off the edge," he said, acknowledging that his thoughts were "all personal and selfish."

"I can't complain because it's six great seasons and I had some great scenes these last two seasons," he continued. "But that's when it changed for me a little."

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Urban Ag said:

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CapCityAg89 said:

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Interesting we were posting very similar thoughts at the exact same time.

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It seems all the complainers just want it wrapped up however they planned it out to be wrapped up. I am so happy that I have been at least 50% wrong on how it would end.

Flawless? hell no.

Entertaining and intriguing as F? Yep.

Sad to see it will be over soon.

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I keep seeing this argument that we hated it because we wanted it to be a certain way. I had no preconceived notions about what was going to happen and I wasn't an avid book reader that was fully into the prophecies and trying to interpret the hints in the books.

It just flat out didn't make sense.

Do I believe she is capable of destruction? Yes, but not like that.

Here is a simple fix that I would have found to be so much more believable:

- Cersei packs the red keep full of innocent people to put between her and Daenerys
- Cersei won't stand down and surrender the red keep, in her last bold move instead of crying in a basement she is going to make Daenarys become the villain in order to destroy her she will have to level the red keep and destroy thousands.

Will Daenarys still be the villain? Yes. Would it be believable that she would sacrifice thousands as collateral damage for her hatred of Cersei? Yes.

Her random rampage and killing spree had no motive, no reasoning, and was just flat out terrible writing.

Even Cersei who is one of the most evil and sadistic characters never did something on this level. She killed thousands of innocents but it was always as collateral damage in order to achieve a goal. There was motivation, there was reasoning.

They never set up Daenarys to be this fragile borderline mentally unstable person, it happened with very little background. She is merciless to her enemies and I would expect her to slaughter innocents who get in the way but not just nuke the entire city in a mad craze.

So many simple more believable alternatives could have existed for her to go on a rampage. This was just lazy as hell writing.

tv, you just don't understand great storytelling. Dany got her feewings hurt, so that makes arbitrary mass murder okay. Plus it's a bad ass action scene, so motivation don't matter.

It's got what plants crave!

Put me in the loved it.

I saw dany's turn coming for a while. Her motivation for killing the citizens was that they didnt rise up against Cersei. They didnt love her, so she made them fear her.

She has always wanted the throne. That is her overwhelming motivation. Along the way she vrings ger own kind of justice, but everything she did was to conquer the 7 kingdoms. If you didn't see this coming, you're crazy. If you felt her unravelling was rushed, you are correct, but they set up the possibility this would happen.

They spent 10 minutes showing how depressed and alone she was instead of an entire season like they used to.

Remember as well, in seasons 1-6 there were multiple story lines to follow, so things progressed mich slower at 5-10 minutes of screen time for each story line. Now, all the storylines are in the same place. Much more progression.

Edit. I typed **** instead of like.

My poor Howland Reed.