Lots of talk about burning the bodies. While, yes that's probably the most economical solution, I don't want y'all to forget that there isn't the same necessity to burning bodies now that the Night King is dead. They could be buried like normal people, or heck, let the crows have at them for a few weeks while everyone travels south to King's Landing anyways.

The plan to get a wight was epically stupid and purely a manufactured plot to get a dragon into the NK's hands because they hadn't introduced any other "magic" for destroying the wall. If you're a fan of the show, you've learned to accept that flawed writing by now because it progressed the story on (not much of a story if the NK is just sitting there patiently waiting at the wall with Benjen saying "I told you so"), but that doesn't mean it wasn't a dumb idea.

You're right there's not really a necessity, but don't the Dothraki typically burn their dead anyway?

Besides, that's going to look a lot cooler than just building a mass grave, haha.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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She would never have sent her armies all the way North to have them die needlessly.

I find it really strange that you are defending what many see as a very poorly written idea to get a wight, but endlessly criticize the show for having underage children as Lords, which has always been an important aspect of the show.

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I defend what I think deserves defending and criticize what I think deserves criticism.


And I don't know which "she" you are referring to. If you are talking about Cersei, she doesn't have to have her army go all the way north to die needlessly. Dani was asking her for a truce while she took on the NK.

smokeythebear said:

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Lots of talk about burning the bodies. While, yes that's probably the most economical solution, I don't want y'all to forget that there isn't the same necessity to burning bodies now that the Night King is dead. They could be buried like normal people, or heck, let the crows have at them for a few weeks while everyone travels south to King's Landing anyways.

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I guess we can easily assume the Northern threat is officially over. But I'd like to hear it from Bran's mouth in episode 4 before we can feel all warm and fuzzy.

Trident 88 said:

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Just read the quote below in an article. Does anyone think this is what happened? I thought Jon just lost it in the courtyard and decided to stand up, yell defiantly at the dragon, and wait for it to burn him alive.

Frankly, this makes more sense.

Quote:

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The latest theory to get tongues wagging is that Jon Snow actually did help to kill the night king. Just before Arya reached the Night King, Snow can be seen coming from behind his shelter to fight Viserion, the undead dragon. Apparently, he screams "Go!," allowing Arya to pass by and do her deed.

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ETA: Sorry if this was already recently posted. I took a break from reading the posts yesterday because they stopped being interesting.

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Jon Snow was nowhere near Arya.

aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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She would never have sent her armies all the way North to have them die needlessly.

I find it really strange that you are defending what many see as a very poorly written idea to get a wight, but endlessly criticize the show for having underage children as Lords, which has always been an important aspect of the show.

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I defend what I think deserves defending and criticize what I think deserves criticism.


And I don't know which "she" you are referring to. If you are talking about Cersei, she doesn't have to have her army go all the way north to die needlessly. Dani was asking her for a truce while she took on the NK.

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I was responding to what you said.

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It was to have a truce so Cersei didn't attack Dani from the south while they were fighting the NK.

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Ooh, I like that. That's pretty good, but I wish it was clear in the episode, if true. Though I know that ruins the "surprise".

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Yeah... if that's what happened it wasn't at all clear that that's what happened.

I've stewed on this ep with a friend who has shared several of my grievances . Many have already been pointed out but here are a few more. I'm cool with Arya dealing the death blow but c'mon it should have been Jon's moment to at least get a shot at him.

1. We see so little of ghost as it is and now Jon has a dragon to ride so he has been reduced in importance even more . With that in mind why not have him go down in a blaze of glory protecting Dany when she was grounded. I mean he was with Jorah at the battles beginning anyway . Drogon has saved Jon many times and it would have been an awesome payback.

2. Every Valyrian steel sword we know of was in this battle yet we did not see one fight with any of them against a white walker.



3. The wights in the crypts were unarmed skeletons just gang up on them and stomp them to oblivion. Even children could have done this .

4. Jon could have ended visyrion with one poke of longclaw when he and rhaegal were fighting him in the aerial battle.

5. Finally you have a character with the name Giantsbane who tells the story of his name one episode prior yet you kill the giant off with a little girl.

Big misses D&D .

Sorry for any typos some of the names are spelled as best as I could .

smokeythebear said:

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Lots of talk about burning the bodies. While, yes that's probably the most economical solution, I don't want y'all to forget that there isn't the same necessity to burning bodies now that the Night King is dead. They could be buried like normal people, or heck, let the crows have at them for a few weeks while everyone travels south to King's Landing anyways.

The plan to get a wight was epically stupid and purely a manufactured plot to get a dragon into the NK's hands because they hadn't introduced any other "magic" for destroying the wall. If you're a fan of the show, you've learned to accept that flawed writing by now because it progressed the story on (not much of a story if the NK is just sitting there patiently waiting at the wall with Benjen saying "I told you so"), but that doesn't mean it wasn't a dumb idea.

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Why is the wall 700 feet tall if it depended solely on magic to keep the dead from crossing over? It could be one foot tall and the nights watch could just sit there and play cards all day every day.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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She would never have sent her armies all the way North to have them die needlessly.

I find it really strange that you are defending what many see as a very poorly written idea to get a wight, but endlessly criticize the show for having underage children as Lords, which has always been an important aspect of the show.

---

I defend what I think deserves defending and criticize what I think deserves criticism.


And I don't know which "she" you are referring to. If you are talking about Cersei, she doesn't have to have her army go all the way north to die needlessly. Dani was asking her for a truce while she took on the NK.

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I was responding to what you said.

Quote:

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It was to have a truce so Cersei didn't attack Dani from the south while they were fighting the NK.

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That wouldn't have been needlessly. That would have been smart on Cersei's part. Similar to how Stalin was begging Roosevelt to hurry the hell up and open a western front on the Nazis. A divided Dany army is much easier to defeat than a united one.

So that if the magic is ever broken there's still a giant wall there? Plus presumably they'd have a hard time proving the magic worked so it probably made people feel a lot more comfortable.

Like Smokey said, it's one of those things you just have to get over because it moved the plot forward.

Sure, it's smart until they have to fight the army of the dead who's attention is now turned onto them.

Cersei did the smart thing. Wait.

so Jon yelled "go!" and then waited in his crouched and horribe defensive position for another ~20 minutes with the ice dragon breathing down on him while she navigated an entire battlefield inside WF, made her way all the way over to that area where thousands of wights were in formation around the tree, then had time to slow down and sneak all the way up to the NK?

Yeah, no. That's the theory of someone wishing that were true to tie it together. And if it somehow turns out to be right, then it'd make the writers look even dumber.

The dead are not kept from crossing the wall by magic, but by the wall itself. Maybe the WW were, but they brought wights into Castle Black through the opening in the wall back at the very beginning.

AGnBCS said:

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2. Every Valyrian steel sword we know of was in this battle yet we did not see one fight with any of them against a white walker.

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I actually think has a good reason behind it. The Night King saw at hardhome that the White Walkers were susceptible to valyrian steel swords, so why would he even put them in the field? They don't have like epic fighting skills or anything.

Quote:

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3. The wights in the crypts were unarmed skeletons just gang up on them and stomp them to oblivion. Even children could have done this .

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They can still kill plenty of people without being armed...

Quote:

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4. Jon could have ended visyrion with one poke of longclaw when he and rhaegal were fighting him in the aerial battle.

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This one is interesting because I admit I hadn't thought of it. But I think there's a decent chance that perhaps Jon didn't think of it either. It's not like he's a seasoned veteran of dragon riding, so maybe he thought he didn't have control enough to draw his sword?

There is also maybe something to the dragon having armored skin. We do see that even the dragonglass and valyrian weapons have to pierce the dead before taking effect, so he'd have had to get a pretty good thrust behind it which would have been difficult.

I think this is an interesting point, but not one that bothers me at all.

They're going to want to burn the bodies to get rid of the disease factor if they ever want to live around winterfell. Medieval Warfare 301, Surviving a Siege of your Castle- avoiding the spread of pestilence

I think they missed an opportunity with ghost.

Prior to the crypts coming alive they should have shown undead-ghost attacking winterfell.

Urban Ag said:

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DartAg1970 said:

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I didn't think the wights turned to dust. I thought it was only the Night King and White Walkers who broke apart as ice chips the wights just fell to the ground.

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The wife and I actually discussed this. Obviously WW's shatter in to ice chips, this is known. But with the wights it seems to be a level of juiciness. Skeleton wights have consistently shattered but they have a juiciness level of 1 or less. The newly dead and recently re-animated just seem to slump over, clearly having a juiciness level of 8-10. Everything in between either shatters/turns to dust or slumps over based on their state of decomposition, of juiciness level. That's what I'm going with anyway.

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Yeah I get that. When the skeletons entered the cave a few seasons ago all of their bones just fell apart and the COF said something like the magic that holds them together doesn't work here. I just took it to mean that their body returns to whatever state it was in prior to reanimation, and not just disappearing into dust (a la infinity war). I think we are on the same page with that.

I still think all of those bodies would be there and would need to be burned. Also talking to the wife last night, I wonder if they truly believe the threat is gone forever. For instance after this is all over would the practice of burying your dead be forbidden and you had to burn them to prevent another army of the dead?

bobinator said:

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So that if the magic is ever broken there's still a giant wall there? Plus presumably they'd have a hard time proving the magic worked so it probably made people feel a lot more comfortable.

Like Smokey said, it's one of those things you just have to get over because it moved the plot forward.

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They didn't build the wall (unless I heard wrong). To them, the wall is even more of a mystery as the pyramids in Egypt are to us. She same people who built the wall also would also supposedly supply the magic. The fact that they made it 700 feet tall would imply to me that there is no real magic or at least it was limited.

How many actual White Walkers were there? I was always a little confused about that, even with the books (although it's been a while since I've read them). I know White Walkers and the Night King can raise the dead to be wights, but are White Walkers also raised up by the Night King, or are they to be viewed as a separate race from the far north simply just ruled by the Night King?

aTmAg said:

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Trident 88 said:

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Just read the quote below in an article. Does anyone think this is what happened? I thought Jon just lost it in the courtyard and decided to stand up, yell defiantly at the dragon, and wait for it to burn him alive.

Frankly, this makes more sense.

Quote:

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The latest theory to get tongues wagging is that Jon Snow actually did help to kill the night king. Just before Arya reached the Night King, Snow can be seen coming from behind his shelter to fight Viserion, the undead dragon. Apparently, he screams "Go!," allowing Arya to pass by and do her deed.

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ETA: Sorry if this was already recently posted. I took a break from reading the posts yesterday because they stopped being interesting.

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Jon Snow was nowhere near Arya.

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I posted this back on page 190. Jon was trying to get through the courtyard that led to the Godswood. According to all thr maps of winterfell, there was really only one way to get there. Arya would have had to run through the same courtyard. The dragon was swinging his head around until Jon focused his attention by jumping in front of him. We don't know for sure of course because we don't follow Arya's path like we do Jon's, but its very possible if not likely.

bobinator said:

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JJxvi said:

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The dead are not kept from crossing the wall by magic, but by the wall itself. Maybe the WW were, but they brought wights into Castle Black through the opening in the wall back at the very beginning.

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Again, this isn't true. They weren't wights when they came through the wall. They were just dead bodies. They didn't reanimate until they were inside castle black.

Benjen Stark himself said "The Wall's not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundation. Strong magic. To protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."

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Dead bodies (with blue eyes?), that were noted to have been dead a long while and hadnt rotted by Sam. Benjen Stark was also not a wight.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Sure, it's smart until they have to fight the army of the dead who's attention is now turned onto them.

Cersei did the smart thing. Wait.

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I think it would have been smarter to be ready to pounce on Dani once the NK war was over. Either you have to defend yourself against the victorious NK army or be ready to take on Dani during their time of weakness. Dani was wanting Cersei to mobilize (or attack) her until the NK war was over. That's a completely reasonable and valuable thing for her to try to negotiate.

bonfarr said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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So that if the magic is ever broken there's still a giant wall there? Plus presumably they'd have a hard time proving the magic worked so it probably made people feel a lot more comfortable.

Like Smokey said, it's one of those things you just have to get over because it moved the plot forward.

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They didn't build the wall (unless I heard wrong). To them, the wall is even more of a mystery as the pyramids in Egypt are to us. She same people who built the wall also would also supposedly supply the magic. The fact that they made it 700 feet tall would imply to me that there is no real magic or at least it was limited.

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Didn't Bran the Builder build the wall?

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I guess. My point is that there is a reason it was built 700 feet tall. To me, that signifies that there is no magic force field keeping the walkers out. That they need such a physical barrier for a reason.

Federale01 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Trident 88 said:

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Just read the quote below in an article. Does anyone think this is what happened? I thought Jon just lost it in the courtyard and decided to stand up, yell defiantly at the dragon, and wait for it to burn him alive.

Frankly, this makes more sense.

Quote:

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The latest theory to get tongues wagging is that Jon Snow actually did help to kill the night king. Just before Arya reached the Night King, Snow can be seen coming from behind his shelter to fight Viserion, the undead dragon. Apparently, he screams "Go!," allowing Arya to pass by and do her deed.

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ETA: Sorry if this was already recently posted. I took a break from reading the posts yesterday because they stopped being interesting.

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Jon Snow was nowhere near Arya.

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I posted this back on page 190. Jon was trying to get through the courtyard that led to the Godswood. According to all thr maps of winterfell, there was really only one way to get there. Arya would have had to run through the same courtyard. The dragon was swinging his head around until Jon focused his attention by jumping in front of him. We don't know for sure of course because we don't follow Arya's path like we do Jon's, but its very possible if not likely.

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I watched the show with close captioning on, and I do not think it had Jon saying "go" or anything. I'll watch again to make sure. And I don't think the timing was right. That time he faced the dragon head on, she had to already be in Godswood because once she killed the NK the dragon collapsed. There wasn't a whole lot of time from when he faced the dragon and it collapsed.

The magic is to keep the WW's on the other side. Otherwise they could scale it or go through any of the many tunnels the builders installed at it's creation.

The height is to keep out wights and other beasts and wildlings (even though they can climb it).

aTmAg said:

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Federale01 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Trident 88 said:

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Just read the quote below in an article. Does anyone think this is what happened? I thought Jon just lost it in the courtyard and decided to stand up, yell defiantly at the dragon, and wait for it to burn him alive.

Frankly, this makes more sense.

Quote:

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The latest theory to get tongues wagging is that Jon Snow actually did help to kill the night king. Just before Arya reached the Night King, Snow can be seen coming from behind his shelter to fight Viserion, the undead dragon. Apparently, he screams "Go!," allowing Arya to pass by and do her deed.

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ETA: Sorry if this was already recently posted. I took a break from reading the posts yesterday because they stopped being interesting.

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Jon Snow was nowhere near Arya.

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I posted this back on page 190. Jon was trying to get through the courtyard that led to the Godswood. According to all thr maps of winterfell, there was really only one way to get there. Arya would have had to run through the same courtyard. The dragon was swinging his head around until Jon focused his attention by jumping in front of him. We don't know for sure of course because we don't follow Arya's path like we do Jon's, but its very possible if not likely.

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I watched the show with close captioning on, and I do not think it had Jon saying "go" or anything. I'll watch again to make sure. And I don't think the timing was right. That time he faced the dragon head on, she had to already be in Godswood because once she killed the NK the dragon collapsed. There wasn't a whole lot of time from when he faced the dragon and it collapsed.

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At least I'm not the only one who watches in closed caption. (My hearing sucks and the British accents don't help). CC is wrong from time to time too.

There eyes aren't blue when they come in. In fact, we clearly see that they aren't.

As for Sam noting about the rot, I don't think it's a big jump to say that either the cold preserved them, or that the Night King did something to them so that they wouldn't rot or something so that the Night's Watch would bring them back to castle black.

bobinator said:

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JJxvi said:

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The dead are not kept from crossing the wall by magic, but by the wall itself. Maybe the WW were, but they brought wights into Castle Black through the opening in the wall back at the very beginning.

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Again, this isn't true. They weren't wights when they came through the wall. They were just dead bodies. They didn't reanimate until they were inside castle black.

Benjen Stark himself said "The Wall's not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundation. Strong magic. To protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."

Edit to note that this isn't from the book, it's from the show. Season 6, Episode 6.

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I think will always just be an inexplainable inconsistency in the story. The dead NW's ranger re-animated south of the wall and seemingly hours, if not days, since he could have been in the presence of a WW. Yet all the other wights we see raised happen close to instantaneously.

No big deal. The part of the book that the series was based on was written somewhere between 1991 and 1996 long before GRRM or HBO had much of this figured out. In fact, GRRM never even detailed any part of reanimation in the books, it's been all HBO.

Did you see my post? That's a direct quote from Benjen Stark in season six, who obviously would have crossed the wall if he could.

I'm not sure he yelled Go or it was intentional. But he was engaged for a few minutes with the dragon. If you look at where the WWs were standing, arya would have had to run through the tunnel past the WWs to make their hair move like it did. She was booking it through the courtyward and tunnel and launched herself before anyone could react. Again, not sure that's how it happened but it's the only way that makes sense to me.

bobinator said:

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Did you see my post? That's a direct quote from Benjen Stark in season six, who obviously would have crossed the wall if he could.

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So I probably missed it. What time are you talking about? This thread is moving fast.

aTmAg said:

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bonfarr said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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So that if the magic is ever broken there's still a giant wall there? Plus presumably they'd have a hard time proving the magic worked so it probably made people feel a lot more comfortable.

Like Smokey said, it's one of those things you just have to get over because it moved the plot forward.

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They didn't build the wall (unless I heard wrong). To them, the wall is even more of a mystery as the pyramids in Egypt are to us. She same people who built the wall also would also supposedly supply the magic. The fact that they made it 700 feet tall would imply to me that there is no real magic or at least it was limited.

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Didn't Bran the Builder build the wall?

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I guess. My point is that there is a reason it was built 700 feet tall. To me, that signifies that there is no magic force field keeping the walkers out. That they need such a physical barrier for a reason.

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Agreed, from what I recall magic was used to build it but I don't remember any discussion about magic keeping wights out. It was a physical barrier only.