****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to aTmAg • 12:12p, 2/11/19
AG
I mean that's just kinda standard storytelling to me.

You can only kill off so many good people unless you are going to have the bad people win right. But also killing off the good people sets the stage or story especially for an underdog improbable victory which is a common theme as well. You can't have emotional buyin and "stakes" if nobody good dies. GOT had a LOT of good guys so killing them while paring down the cast to the survivors is expected. It was in fact kind of a game at one point (still is to some degree) predicting who lives and who dies. Likewise there were plenty of bad guys but you don't need as many as long as they are winning - but their death also has more weight if they've killed many people both good and bad and pawns. Then they deserve their death more.


None of that has anything to do with TV vs book....that's the way the story was going to go.

A story in which the good guys win from the outset and kill the bad guys would be well....boring.
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Stive
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In reply to aTmAg • 12:12p, 2/11/19
AG
aTmAg said:
I often make people about things that they haven't considered before. It's one of my gifts.

I'm not sure that making people think about dumb things should be considered a gift.
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aTmAg
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12:18p, 2/11/19
AG
Yeah I guess if I left it at that, it would be a cheesy prediction. So here is a more detailed one:

Jon - Dies defending Danaerys (or the kingdom in general)
Danaerys - Wins the throne (another dragon dies)
Tyrion - Lives as hand of the king
Arya - Lives
Sansa - Queen of the north
Gendry - not sure.. dies, because why not?
Davos - No clue.
Sam - Is the maester (sp) of Westoros
Brienne - qeens guard
Jaime - Dies a eye-watering death. Maybe killing his sister
Jorah - On Danaerys's council

Cersie - dies
WW king - his army defeated, but he lives to try again in 1000 years (just in time for a sequel)
Mountain - dies.. Jamie kills him somehow (before killing Cersie)
I'm forgetting a lot of people....

Soon we will see how wrong I am.
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aTmAg
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In reply to Stive • 12:22p, 2/11/19
AG
Stive said:
aTmAg said:
I often make people about things that they haven't considered before. It's one of my gifts.

I'm not sure that making people think about dumb things should be considered a gift.
You won't admit it.. but you are saying to yourself, "gosh darn.. he's right".
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aTmAg
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In reply to Zombie Jon Snow • 12:24p, 2/11/19
AG
Zombie Jon Snow said:
I mean that's just kinda standard storytelling to me.

You can only kill off so many good people unless you are going to have the bad people win right. But also killing off the good people sets the stage or story especially for an underdog improbable victory which is a common theme as well. You can't have emotional buyin and "stakes" if nobody good dies. GOT had a LOT of good guys so killing them while paring down the cast to the survivors is expected. It was in fact kind of a game at one point (still is to some degree) predicting who lives and who dies. Likewise there were plenty of bad guys but you don't need as many as long as they are winning - but their death also has more weight if they've killed many people both good and bad and pawns. Then they deserve their death more.


None of that has anything to do with TV vs book....that's the way the story was going to go.

A story in which the good guys win from the outset and kill the bad guys would be well....boring.
You have to admit that early on, it was damn unpredictable. I was surprised when Ned got beheaded, nobody saw the red wedding coming. It's one thing to have John Wick's dog get killed, GoT took it to a completely new level.

The ending of last season was getting predictable, IMO.
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Duncan Idaho
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In reply to Zombie Jon Snow • 12:34p, 2/11/19
Game of thrones had Ned killed. What other character of note that was killed could be described as good? And Ned wasn't event that good, he was just naive.


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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to aTmAg • 12:35p, 2/11/19
AG
Predictable at times maybe....but the early stuff again there were so many characters it could have been anyone t any time.

I have hard time though since I read all the books none of those early deaths surprised me in the show of course.

Maybe not Red Wedding or Ned Stark level surprises but till the way Olenna died, the feint by the Lannister Army to fool the unsullied etc. and what Cersei did at the Sept followed by Tommen trying to fly were pretty good. And Arya ending LF was nice too when the entire setup seemed like it was going another way. The Tower of Joy stuff was also a jaw dropper to most if they did not follow message board theories.

I think too that early surprises were based on expectations of stuff people have seen before - once they acclimated to anyone can die anytime and were looking out for the next big thing they became less of an impact.




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Urban Ag
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In reply to Stive • 12:39p, 2/11/19
AG
Stive said:
I've gone 7 years, 9 months, and 25 days of watching this show, reading the Texags threads, laughing at memes.....everything. And never once...in all that time.....did I think about or consider the "pro-feminine" slant that HBO/Martin/B&W are presenting.

ZERO surprise that aTmAg is the one that brings this up.
Whether you like, don't like it, or are indifferent, how could anyone not notice it?

The two most powerful individuals in the series, as it stands now, are Dany and Cersei.

The most prominent assassin in Westeros is Arya. She literally took out the entire Frey family without breaking a sweat.

Sansa essentially rules the North.

Olenna Tyrell ran House Tyrell regardless of who actually had the title. Margery Tyrell led two Baratheon kings around by the nose.

The Sand Snakes overthrew House Martel and took command of the entire Kingdom of Dorne.

Lysa Arryn ruled the Veil until LF murdered her.

Brienne is one of the biggest bad asses in the realm.

Melisandre' influenced literally every decision that Stannis made.

House Mormont is commanded by a 10 year old girl.

The entire series, both books and tv, is a collection of powerful men making critical mistakes and women persevering and coming out on top (for the most part). It's absolutely a theme in play. I don't care either but come on man....
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Duncan Idaho • 12:42p, 2/11/19
AG
Duncan Idaho said:
Game of thrones had Ned killed. What other character of note that was killed could be described as good? And Ned wasn't event that good, he was just naive.



good meaning not just an evil tyrant type seeking power alone and someone you think would treat people justly.

HODOR
WUN WUN
RICKON
Robb Stark and Talisa
Stannis Baratheon - his devotion to the beliefs of the red witch notwithstanding he generally wanted good for people
Catelyn Stark - just a good mother although misguided or mislead at times
Shireen - purely innocent (and scratch of stannis above - lol).
Tommen - actually seemed decent just under the control of his mother
Myrcella - ditto
Barristan Selmy - great knight
Olenna and Margaery Tyrell - playing the game for sure but pretty decent people
Oberyn Martell - pretty harmless not a power seeker just a kinky lover and great fighter (but too cocky)
Syrio Forel - maybe
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Urban Ag
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In reply to Duncan Idaho • 12:47p, 2/11/19
AG
Duncan Idaho said:
Game of thrones had Ned killed. What other character of note that was killed could be described as good? And Ned wasn't event that good, he was just naive.


Cat
Rob
Hodor
Uncle Benjen
Three Eyed Raven
Rickon
Talissa Maegyr
Sirio
Old Nan
Maester Luwin
Tommen (he was at least innocent)
Myrcella
Rodrik Cassel
Barristan Selmy
Jeor Mormont
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wangus12
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12:48p, 2/11/19
AG
I think if there is going to be one more unpredictable death, it is going to be Tyrion.
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Urban Ag
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In reply to wangus12 • 12:49p, 2/11/19
AG
Agreed. I don't think Tyrion makes it either.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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12:50p, 2/11/19
AG
Ned wasn't that good? What did he ever do (outside of flashbacks) that could be considered even "gray", much less not good?

He was staunchly against killing Danaerys, even knowing she posed a threat to his best friend. He sacrificed his honor in order protect a baby that wasn't his. Etc.
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Urban Ag
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 1:03p, 2/11/19
AG
No he was definitely a good guy.
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Atreides Ornithopter
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1:05p, 2/11/19
AG
Ned was HONORABLE, which is why everyone should have know Jon was NOT his kid or he would have married his mother.

Your definition of good is up to you.
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Duncan Idaho
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In reply to Urban Ag • 1:07p, 2/11/19
Urban Ag said:
Duncan Idaho said:
Game of thrones had Ned killed. What other character of note that was killed could be described as good? And Ned wasn't event that good, he was just naive.


Cat
Rob
Hodor
Uncle Benjen
Three Eyed Raven
Rickon
Talissa Maegyr
Sirio
Old Nan
Maester Luwin
Tommen (he was at least innocent)
Myrcella
Rodrik Cassel
Barristan Selmy
Jeor Mormont

Stopped reading right there.

Cat got off easy.
Rob got off easy.
They are both responsible for countless deaths because they were emotional children.
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AgMarauder04
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In reply to Duncan Idaho • 1:11p, 2/11/19
AG
How?
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Duncan Idaho
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In reply to AgMarauder04 • 1:17p, 2/11/19
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.

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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Duncan Idaho • 1:18p, 2/11/19
AG
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.


by marrying someone he loved...yeah that makes him a horrible person.

he tried to rectify that too btw.

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AgMarauder04
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In reply to Duncan Idaho • 1:31p, 2/11/19
AG
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.



Smart, no. But having his word and logic overruled by his heart doesn't make him a bad person.
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Atreides Ornithopter
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In reply to Duncan Idaho • 1:38p, 2/11/19
AG
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.

Honoring the woman he got pregnant by marring her and legitimizing the child overrode his word. Rob even talks about this in the book as far as I can remember. And again this is why you should have known Jon Snow was not Neds since Ned would have done the same thing, ie marry Jon's Mother since he was not married to Cat yet.
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Urban Ag
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1:39p, 2/11/19
AG
Duncan probably thinks little Lady Mormont isn't good either because as head of her house she chooses to have her desert first, main course later (if at all).
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aTmAg
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1:42p, 2/11/19
AG
I wonder if he was watching all those people getting killed on TV thinking, "serves you right!!"
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Atreides Ornithopter • 1:49p, 2/11/19
AG
Sarduakar said:
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.

Honoring the woman he got pregnant by marring her and legitimizing the child overrode his word. Rob even talks about this in the book as far as I can remember. And again this is why you should have known Jon Snow was not Neds since Ned would have done the same thing, ie marry Jon's Mother since he was not married to Cat yet.

While Agree with your premise about Robb....that is incorrect about Ned and Cat.

They got married weeks before he left to fight in Roberts Rebellion He had already been raising the northern bannermen to fight . - he left when he heard Rickard and Brandon Stark had been killed by the Mad King.

But Cat was already pregnant with Robb when he left.

Robb and Jon were actually born around the same time. Both said to be late in the year 281 or early 282.

Ned returned with the child but was already married and Robb was born too.
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aTmAg
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In reply to Zombie Jon Snow • 1:53p, 2/11/19
AG
Zombie Jon Snow said:
Sarduakar said:
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.

Honoring the woman he got pregnant by marring her and legitimizing the child overrode his word. Rob even talks about this in the book as far as I can remember. And again this is why you should have known Jon Snow was not Neds since Ned would have done the same thing, ie marry Jon's Mother since he was not married to Cat yet.

While Agree with your premise about Robb....that is incorrect about Ned and Cat.

They got married weeks before he left to fight in Roberts Rebellion He had already been raising the northern bannermen to fight . - he left when he heard Rickard and Brandon Stark had been killed by the Mad King.

But Cat was already pregnant with Robb when he left.

Robb and Jon were actually born around the same time. Both said to be late in the year 281 or early 282.

Ned returned with the child but was already married and Robb was born too.
Out of curiosity. 282 since what? What was their Christ moment?
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redline248
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1:53p, 2/11/19
AG
Cat kidnapping Tyrion was the ultimate dip shht move
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Duncan Idaho
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In reply to AgMarauder04 • 1:55p, 2/11/19
AgMarauder04 said:
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.



Smart, no. But having his word and logic overruled by his heart doesn't make him a bad person.

It does when the natural outcome is thousands of deaths.

Love is for mistresses.
Marriage is for politics.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to redline248 • 1:55p, 2/11/19
AG
That is not on Cat, that's on Littlefinger. She was manipulated.
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Atreides Ornithopter
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In reply to aTmAg • 1:58p, 2/11/19
AG
aTmAg said:
Zombie Jon Snow said:
Sarduakar said:
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.

Honoring the woman he got pregnant by marring her and legitimizing the child overrode his word. Rob even talks about this in the book as far as I can remember. And again this is why you should have known Jon Snow was not Neds since Ned would have done the same thing, ie marry Jon's Mother since he was not married to Cat yet.

While Agree with your premise about Robb....that is incorrect about Ned and Cat.

They got married weeks before he left to fight in Roberts Rebellion He had already been raising the northern bannermen to fight . - he left when he heard Rickard and Brandon Stark had been killed by the Mad King.

But Cat was already pregnant with Robb when he left.

Robb and Jon were actually born around the same time. Both said to be late in the year 281 or early 282.

Ned returned with the child but was already married and Robb was born too.
Out of curiosity. 282 since what? What was their Christ moment?
The Targh Dynasty starting I believe. I till think my premise would be that for Jon to have already been born and Ned gets home would have meant Ned got her pregnant BEFORE marrying Cat. meaning he wouldn't have married Cat if that had been the case. Because even by your dates are we sure who is actually older? Jon or Robb?
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to aTmAg • 2:05p, 2/11/19
AG
aTmAg said:
Zombie Jon Snow said:
Sarduakar said:
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.

Honoring the woman he got pregnant by marring her and legitimizing the child overrode his word. Rob even talks about this in the book as far as I can remember. And again this is why you should have known Jon Snow was not Neds since Ned would have done the same thing, ie marry Jon's Mother since he was not married to Cat yet.

While Agree with your premise about Robb....that is incorrect about Ned and Cat.

They got married weeks before he left to fight in Roberts Rebellion He had already been raising the northern bannermen to fight . - he left when he heard Rickard and Brandon Stark had been killed by the Mad King.

But Cat was already pregnant with Robb when he left.

Robb and Jon were actually born around the same time. Both said to be late in the year 281 or early 282.

Ned returned with the child but was already married and Robb was born too.
Out of curiosity. 282 since what? What was their Christ moment?
BC and AC are Before Conquest and After Conquest referring to the Targaryen Conquest of Westeros (i.e. The Seven Kingdoms unification)
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aTmAg
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In reply to Atreides Ornithopter • 2:07p, 2/11/19
AG
Sarduakar said:
aTmAg said:
Zombie Jon Snow said:
Sarduakar said:
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.

Honoring the woman he got pregnant by marring her and legitimizing the child overrode his word. Rob even talks about this in the book as far as I can remember. And again this is why you should have known Jon Snow was not Neds since Ned would have done the same thing, ie marry Jon's Mother since he was not married to Cat yet.

While Agree with your premise about Robb....that is incorrect about Ned and Cat.

They got married weeks before he left to fight in Roberts Rebellion He had already been raising the northern bannermen to fight . - he left when he heard Rickard and Brandon Stark had been killed by the Mad King.

But Cat was already pregnant with Robb when he left.

Robb and Jon were actually born around the same time. Both said to be late in the year 281 or early 282.

Ned returned with the child but was already married and Robb was born too.
Out of curiosity. 282 since what? What was their Christ moment?
The Targh Dynasty starting I believe. I till think my premise would be that for Jon to have already been born and Ned gets home would have meant Ned got her pregnant BEFORE marrying Cat. meaning he wouldn't have married Cat if that had been the case. Because even by your dates are we sure who is actually older? Jon or Robb?
Wow.. Not even Caesar got the clock to start over. He got his own month though.
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Liquid Wrench
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In reply to AgMarauder04 • 2:11p, 2/11/19
He was warned by his mother. He sent the North into chaos over some exotic foreign strange. He was cocky after winning a couple battles and thought he could do whatever he wanted.

All he had to do was honor his word like Starks were supposed to.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Atreides Ornithopter • 2:15p, 2/11/19
AG
Sarduakar said:
aTmAg said:
Zombie Jon Snow said:
Sarduakar said:
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.

Honoring the woman he got pregnant by marring her and legitimizing the child overrode his word. Rob even talks about this in the book as far as I can remember. And again this is why you should have known Jon Snow was not Neds since Ned would have done the same thing, ie marry Jon's Mother since he was not married to Cat yet.

While Agree with your premise about Robb....that is incorrect about Ned and Cat.

They got married weeks before he left to fight in Roberts Rebellion He had already been raising the northern bannermen to fight . - he left when he heard Rickard and Brandon Stark had been killed by the Mad King.

But Cat was already pregnant with Robb when he left.

Robb and Jon were actually born around the same time. Both said to be late in the year 281 or early 282.

Ned returned with the child but was already married and Robb was born too.
Out of curiosity. 282 since what? What was their Christ moment?
The Targh Dynasty starting I believe. I till think my premise would be that for Jon to have already been born and Ned gets home would have meant Ned got her pregnant BEFORE marrying Cat. meaning he wouldn't have married Cat if that had been the case. Because even by your dates are we sure who is actually older? Jon or Robb?

I don't know why Jon's birth has any bearing on the timeline of Robb being born and Ned/Cat.

They were definitely married before he left and Robb born while he was gone. And we don't have any detailed time that Ned was gone - like in months. Said to be about a year. Ned a man of honor definitely did not bed Cat before marriage.

FYI apparently it was "early" 281 - not sure where I saw 282.

Robb's birth relative to Jon - of Lyanna and Rhaegar - is really not related. Lyanna had been taken captive (presumably) in 280 so yes Jon could very easily be older than Robb. We don't really know when Lyanna got pregnant relative to Cat with Robb. We only know he took the baby back and by the time he arrived Robb was also born.

Both are listed as having been born in the same year - they usually only refer to years in GOT timeline (sometimes late or early in the year but not months).

Here is some detail that still provides no answer.

https://www.quora.com/Whos-older-Robb-Stark-or-Jon-Snow

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Urban Ag
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In reply to Duncan Idaho • 2:15p, 2/11/19
AG
Duncan Idaho said:
AgMarauder04 said:
How?

The red wedding and the slaughter of the northmen was all Rob's fault for not honoring his word.

The Frey's were scum. Basically the West Virginia of the Riverlands. Walder Frey was pissed at the Starks, but the red wedding was a result of Tywin Lannister cutting him and Roose Bolton a better deal than Robb was offering. A much better deal.

One could even argue that the Frey's would have turned regardless of Robb marrying the other girl. The Bolton's would have for sure.
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Atreides Ornithopter
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In reply to aTmAg • 2:19p, 2/11/19
AG
aTmAg said:
Wow.. Not even Caesar got the clock to start over. He got his own month though.
Caesar DID restart the clock on what the Romans believed. Realize that A.D. was reset AFTER the fact, ie several hundred years into the Middle Ages when most of Europe was Christianized and they wanted a more common starting point for all nations. That redo was done on the Julian calendar ( Julius Caeser) and thus is what then led to the Gregorian calendar ( 1500 ish )being better but and them redoing it again ( but this was only days off. That is why Eastern Orthodox Christmas is different than Catholic.
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