I was thinking through the current state of the great houses. The GoT series of events has absolutely decimated Westeros:

House Targaryen - Under control Mother of Dragons
House Stark - Under control of KingofdaNorf
House Greyjoy - Under the control of everyone's favorite Disney pirate villain
House Lannister - Unsee the control of everyone's favorite Disney evil queen
House Arryn - ruled by Sweet Robin, under the control of LF.
House Tully - essentially gone; current lord a prisoner of the Lannisters.
House Baratheon - gone
House Martell - gone
House Tyrell - gone
House Frey - gone (a great house only for a very short period of time).

This continent must be in absolute chaos.

dc509 said:

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Yeah, you're right. Only because there's so much time invested in this that I want to know how it ends. I read the books before there was a show, and those things took forever to get through. I would, however, be annoyed and write a strongly worded tweet at hbo and GRRM.

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Not that I don't agree, but I'm so invested they could throw a soap opera twist and I wouldn't care, still going to watch. I do wish they could have spread this season out if only to help with timelines etc.

The TL;DR is up

https://imgur.com/a/W4LOw

Ha, yeah there is that.

As for the "Cersei teaming up with the NK", how exactly would that work? How does one "team up" with or even talk to a ancient, magical and evil being?

And this may have been answered before, but what exactly is the NK / WW end game? What do they want? Revenge on mankind? To watch the whole world burn / freeze? To kill them all?

So what would Cersei have to offer?

I want the series to end by the Children of the Forest shoving a shard of ice into Dany's chest and turning her into the on-fire Day Queen

HtownAg92 said:

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And this may have been answered before, but what exactly is the NK / WW end game? What do they want? Revenge on mankind? To watch the whole world burn / freeze? To kill them all?

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Back in the old pre-show days on westeros.org, there was an intriguing fan theory about the WW - that they were back and attacking men because in centuries past the Wall was supposed to be the dividing line between the Realms of Men and the WW (Others) territory, and the humans had been encroaching for years. In essence, the WW were attacking not as aggressor but as defenders pushed beyond all reasonable limits. Like most fan theories it was ten times more complicated than necessary, but when I went looking for it recently to brush up on the specifics I found this much more succinct version on Reddit that brings up the highlights, specifically remarking that a massive, 100% good vs 100% evil struggle is just not in the DNA of this story. Sure, the myths that have been told about the past are always heroic, but the actual events are much more complicated.

Here is the link - no show spoilers at all, it's 3 years old and is 100% book based (so there are references to things like Robb being a warg). The only possible spoilers MAY be in the comments which I haven't read. But the theory is interesting.

Link to Reddit Theory (totally non-spoilery to the show) (can't speak for the comments, just the theory itself)

Now, I don't have any idea if the show is going in this direction at all, and the show portrays the WW in a MUCH more menacing and darker light. And I don't know at this point if there is even time to set up enough backstory between the WW and humans. But I've always found this to be a very intriguing theory and one that seems way more in line with GRRM's worldview and sensibilities than Jon and Dany ruling the Seven Kingdoms after banishing the WW and saving the day.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I want the series to end by the Children of the Forest shoving a shard of ice into Dany's chest and turning her into the on-fire Day Queen

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Into her what???

jenn96 said:

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HtownAg92 said:

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And this may have been answered before, but what exactly is the NK / WW end game? What do they want? Revenge on mankind? To watch the whole world burn / freeze? To kill them all?

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Back in the old pre-show days on westeros.org, there was an intriguing fan theory about the WW - that they were back and attacking men because in centuries past the Wall was supposed to be the dividing line between the Realms of Men and the WW (Others) territory, and the humans had been encroaching for years. In essence, the WW were attacking not as aggressor but as defenders pushed beyond all reasonable limits. Like most fan theories it was ten times more complicated than necessary, but when I went looking for it recently to brush up on the specifics I found this much more succinct version on Reddit that brings up the highlights, specifically remarking that a massive, 100% good vs 100% evil struggle is just not in the DNA of this story. Sure, the myths that have been told about the past are always heroic, but the actual events are much more complicated.

Here is the link - no show spoilers at all, it's 3 years old and is 100% book based (so there are references to things like Robb being a warg). The only possible spoilers MAY be in the comments which I haven't read. But the theory is interesting.

Link to Reddit Theory (totally non-spoilery to the show) (can't speak for the comments, just the theory itself)

Now, I don't have any idea if the show is going in this direction at all, and the show portrays the WW in a MUCH more menacing and darker light. And I don't know at this point if there is even time to set up enough backstory between the WW and humans. But I've always found this to be a very intriguing theory and one that seems way more in line with GRRM's worldview and sensibilities than Jon and Dany ruling the Seven Kingdoms after banishing the WW and saving the day.

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Great post. Hadn't read that theory previously.

M.C. Swag said:

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That theory has been discussed on the thread and it's one I think would fit with GRRM real life views. He isn't one to resolve a conflict with war. That's the point.

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I agree with this I just dont' think HBO has the writing horse power or enough episodes left to pull it off.

In the books there has been very little info about the WW and the only real major encounter was the Fist. By comparison, the series has made the WW out to be simply evil. No quarter. No explanation. Just kill and kill and reanimate and destroy. They did provide the backstory that the COTF created them but did so to create a weapon to destroy man, not knowing their weapon would be bent on destroying them all. Makes me believe that HBO is going to keep going down the path that the WW are less complex, more so a weapon that backfired on its creator, and here it is, back after being silent for thousands of years.

Helluva a question we will probably never get an answer to. How does a hermit wildling some how broker that deal with the WW's?

Considering he is (was) the only known living being to actually interact with the WW's it's pretty significant and at a min shows they are capable of communication/negotiate with humans.

Quote:

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I agree with this I just dont' think HBO has the writing horse power or enough episodes left to pull it off.

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Yes, that's what I think too. Sadly, at this point it doesn't matter what might happen in the books; they aren't going to be finished so they're a dead-end, story-wise. And I don't know that the show has any interest in exploring the complexity of the relationship with the WW, the CotK and why the WW are advancing (other than just being evil). Even if they do, there are what - 9 episodes left? 8?

dc509 said:

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Carl Underguard said:

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This article is fairly negative in tone (for those triggered by criticism of Game of Thrones), but it makes some good points. The last paragraph basically describes the situation on this board right now.

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I think overall, this will be one of the more polarizing episodes in Thrones history. Every viewer now is having to make a calculation about how much lax storytelling to forgive, considering the following: It's not the creators' fault that Martin hasn't finished his books; there are just seven episodes left; and the show will naturally accelerate as it nears the finish line. On one end of the spectrum will be those who are perfectly content, after years of painful reversals and twists, to root for the "good guys" to stay good, and to "win" in the end, whatever that means. On the other end will be those who will feel profoundly betrayed if Game of Thrones, in its final hours, rejects the "no one is safe" attitude typified by game-changing moments like the Red Wedding. I'll still give Season 7 until the finale to show me what kind of series this epic wants to be onscreenif "Beyond the Wall" is any indicator, I'll expect heated debate over the soul of Thrones until Season 8 returns (sigh) more than a year later.

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https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall-roundtable/537363/

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Don't get me wrong, I still think the show is awesome. I don't care about how fast people move from point A to point B. There's dragons and an army of dead people so I'm perfectly willing to assume dragons and raven can fly extremely fast in their world. The bolded part is what knocks it down a degree or two in my mind, and it's because it creates formulaic scenes. I also wish they would stop doing things like throwing John into a frozen lake wearing armor unless they're going to do something like show the lord of light saving him. There were plenty of ways to create the drama of him being left behind, and that is what they picked? Come on...

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I agree with the criticisms of Martin, but it's not like there aren't capable writers for tv shows out in the world. As someone else pointed out, those of us in this thread have come up with several different options that could have led to some of the same outcomes but in a more believable, less cliche, more badass, etc. way. Even the fact that no one with oversight on the show thought to change the Baratheon sigil on King's Landing to a Lannister one shows how disconnected some of them are.

Then are the minor issues that are still ridiculous (Jamie and Bronn in the river, bringing Jon to the boat before removing his completely frozen clothes, etc.). A group of us at work have lunch together each Monday to discuss the show, and there was more complaining about this episode than any other I can remember. The kinds of things discussed in this thread have been brought up, but people were willing to look past the fast travelling and some of the minor issues until now. They're getting even more ridiculous as the season goes on.

I still enjoy a lot of the show, but many of the "quality" portions lately tend to be the conversations people have and the minor scenes (Olenna's final scene, Jon touching Drogon, Davos's fermented crab, etc.). Fewer of the "major" scenes are as good as the past with the exception of Drogon burning the Lannister army.

Urban Ag said:

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Helluva a question we will probably never get an answer to. How does a hermit wildling some how broker that deal with the WW's?

Considering he is (was) the only known living being to actually interact with the WW's it's pretty significant and at a min shows they are capable of communication/negotiate with humans.

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I wonder if Gilly could provide some insight there

AgLaw said:

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I was thinking through the current state of the great houses. The GoT series of events has absolutely decimated Westeros:

House Targaryen - Under control Mother of Dragons

• Replacement: No one if Dany or Jon survives

House Stark - Under control of KingofdaNorf

• Replacement: No one if Sansa or Arya survive (or in a way Jon)

House Greyjoy - Under the control of everyone's favorite Disney pirate villain

• Replacement: another Iron Island family (the Greyjoys haven't always ruled their anyway)

House Lannister - Unsee the control of everyone's favorite Disney evil queen

• Replacement: No one if Tyrion survives

House Arryn - ruled by Sweet Robin, under the control of LF.

• Replacement: No one if Robert survives and manages to have kids. Sansa could potentially replace the Arryn family if the others want her to

House Tully - essentially gone; current lord a prisoner of the Lannisters.

• Replacement: No one if Edmure's family is still alive

House Baratheon - gone

• Replacement: No one if Gendry is legitimized by the surviving ruler. Brienne and Tormund's massive children could be a nice replacement though (Tarth is an island in the Stormlands, and Tormund has a similar personality to some of the Baratheons)

House Martell - gone

• Replacement: this is harder to talk about in show terms since they have been ignored and cut out almost entirely from the beginning

House Tyrell - gone

• Replacement: Perhaps Samwell Tarly could be released from service (especially if the WW are defeated for good) and made Lord of the Reach

House Frey - gone (a great house only for a very short period of time).

• Replacement: Practically anyone would likely be better for Westeros

This continent must be in absolute chaos.

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No doubt that there is going to be a real struggle to get back to some sort of normal, but depending on who survives there could be several that continue or are replaced naturally.

No more lords in Danys wheelless world

Dan 07 said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Helluva a question we will probably never get an answer to. How does a hermit wildling some how broker that deal with the WW's?

Considering he is (was) the only known living being to actually interact with the WW's it's pretty significant and at a min shows they are capable of communication/negotiate with humans.

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I wonder if Gilly could provide some insight there

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Seems more likely to come from her at this point than say an omnipotent being related to one of the main protagonists. What is up with Bran only sending warnings to certain people? Seems like we've only seen/heard about him writing to Cersei and the Maesters to be like "an army of the dead is coming." Couldn't he share a few other specifics with people like Jon?

One thing I don't get is why Tyrion thinks breaking the wheel means democracy. I took it to mean Dany intends to reinstall the Targ dynasty that had ruled prior to Robert's rebellion. No other family would or should rule in her mind.