He MIGHT finish Winds of Winter, no way he does the last one.AGeng25 said:
Question to the book readers: do you really think GRRM will finish the last 2 books? If so, do you think he can really bring it all together without totally ignoring some of the plots/characters/story lines he created up to this point?
Game of Thrones - Season 7
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M.C. Swag said:Hell no.Quote:
Question to the book readers: do you really think GRRM will finish the last 2 books? If so, do you think he can really bring it all together without totally ignoring some of the plots/characters/story lines he created up to this point?
I think WoW will get done. DoS will only happen if it's been worked at the same time. I'm not sure another 5-6 year writing cycle is possible for him.
And the books are just different. Better in my mind. The show is a great fantasy show but if you enjoy fantasy books (GRRM restored that in me), these are fantastic. The "pointless" characters are all about world building. The show hints at the frustration of Dorne which will have a much larger impact on the books. And the current involvement of the ironborn and a possible redemption for Theon would be much more fully realized in the books.
bored, no?DannyDuberstein said:
For those that don't think he wants to finish, what do you think that motivation is? Just got bored with it and happy to let HBO just tell the conclusion for him and save him the trouble?
grew his world too big and has no idea how to close it all out satisfyingly within the bounds of two novels? yeah.
i don't fault him for wanting to explore the world he built
but yeah, he's not exactly clear-eyed with regard to the limitations of the human condition on his art (i.e. you get old, you get tired)
but yeah, he's not exactly clear-eyed with regard to the limitations of the human condition on his art (i.e. you get old, you get tired)
^Pretty much this. I also think there's some writer's block and defeat-ism from the books' popularity. By that I mean GRRM prides himself on complex story telling and bucking common fantasy tropes. I imagine he must feel like some of the wind was taken out of his sails when message board nerds analyzed his texts and deciphered all the avenues of potential outcomes to his 'subtle' hints. R+L=J was supposed to be a pretty big reveal I imagine, but after 6+ years of no sequel, it became a widely expected development from his audience and so what is left is nothing short of fulfilling those expectations. There's no shock or awe.cone said:bored, no?DannyDuberstein said:
For those that don't think he wants to finish, what do you think that motivation is? Just got bored with it and happy to let HBO just tell the conclusion for him and save him the trouble?
grew his world too big and has no idea how to close it all out satisfyingly within the bounds of two novels? yeah.
Wow. Entitled much?
It's not torture. He's just making them fly. I suppose he's not in The Eyrie anymore so maybe he's resorting to other methods.Dr. Watson said:Rustys-Beef-o-Reeno said:
that reminds me, what ever happened to robin arraign?
No bail. Remanded to custody until the trial.
Robyn Arryn is probably torturing small animals.
I think he has to recognize that HBO has done a better job of telling his story. He probably looks at their narrative and sees all the mistakes he made with such a wandering and overly complicated story line. I imagine that would be pretty demotivating for someone like him.
I devoured the books, but by the end of the last one I was thoroughly exhausted reading his work. I can't imagine trying to write it. Even if he finished the last two, I'm not sure when I'd get around to reading them. I enjoy the show so much at this point, that if WoW came out tomorrow, I'd wait until the show was done before I picked it up. That's no slight to GRRM, because I love his world. I just happen to think HBO blew everyone away with how well they adapted his world and cleaned it up.
I devoured the books, but by the end of the last one I was thoroughly exhausted reading his work. I can't imagine trying to write it. Even if he finished the last two, I'm not sure when I'd get around to reading them. I enjoy the show so much at this point, that if WoW came out tomorrow, I'd wait until the show was done before I picked it up. That's no slight to GRRM, because I love his world. I just happen to think HBO blew everyone away with how well they adapted his world and cleaned it up.
jmo but that's pretty insulting to the artistQuote:
mistakes
he gets to explore the world he created from nothing
and he doesn't owe the audience a thing
DannyDuberstein said:
For those that don't think he wants to finish, what do you think that motivation is? Just got bored with it and happy to let HBO just tell the conclusion for him and save him the trouble?
I think it's a combination of two things.
1) he has always been a huge nerd but now he's very loved and is soaking in the fame, which takes away from his writing.
2) I think he knows he's written himself into a corner, with so many loose ends and isn't motivated to finish the **** show he's created.
If I weee him, I'd look at all the many many loose ends and not want to finish the monster I've created either.
Victarion had like five chapters where he was literally sailing on a boat. Sailing. On. A. Boat.
"That's cute, hold my beer."Quote:
Victarion had like five chapters where he was literally sailing on a boat. Sailing. On. A. Boat.
-- Melville
Sheesh. Ya'll book people are going to make me have to go to that lame GOT season 7 thread that nobody posts in and where if you type the word book in your post it sends an electric shock through your keyboard.
Quote:
Victarion had like five chapters where he was literally sailing on a boat. Sailing. On. A. Boat.
Biggest reason to not complain about how fast people get around in the show.
GRRM must be manic...and he wrote volumes of stuff that is an endless development of new people, plots and motives when he was at the top of his productivity curve and then he drops down and seemingly can't do anything.
Maybe he is now medicated and he no longer has such highs and lows and therefore can't accomplish anything.
Maybe he is now medicated and he no longer has such highs and lows and therefore can't accomplish anything.
I don't think anyone intends to insult the creator of a story we all clearly love. GRRM is certainly justified in exploring his world, but that doesn't abstain him from (fair) criticism.
ASoIaF has mounted the same mare that Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series did...it unfortunately is starting to resemble an exruciatingly slow paced mule. I can't be the only one who hopes Sanderson is given the reins to this tale as well.
But in terms of ADWD, very little seems to have actually happened, in comparison to Martin's first three in the series (I feel the 4th book also suffered from pacing, but major, memorable events did occur in the midst of the plodding, at least). Unfortunately, as I read it became apparent that the author had lost the sense of who the characters were in previous installments, and sought to recreate them.
Similarly, other characters with well established personalities seemed to suddenly become much weaker characters with little to compel them through their travails. Whereas once they were strong and decisive, in this book they seem to have suddenly become mere shadows of their former selves. Virtually none of the characters remained true to themselves. All in all, the book has that "stalling" feel... Like Martin was just filling word counts until he got to the cliffhangers... I honestly feel the book could have been trimmed to half and we wouldn't have lost any important information.
Martin did a superb job with his first three books in this series, and I'm holding out that he has some fantastic payoffs planned... But ADwD was underwhelming as a whole and I'd be lying if I said it did anything other than instill a serious sense of doubt in his ability to close the tale.
ASoIaF has mounted the same mare that Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series did...it unfortunately is starting to resemble an exruciatingly slow paced mule. I can't be the only one who hopes Sanderson is given the reins to this tale as well.
But in terms of ADWD, very little seems to have actually happened, in comparison to Martin's first three in the series (I feel the 4th book also suffered from pacing, but major, memorable events did occur in the midst of the plodding, at least). Unfortunately, as I read it became apparent that the author had lost the sense of who the characters were in previous installments, and sought to recreate them.
- Tyrion is different from his previous characterizations in canon. He meanders this way and that on his way to Dany... (But still has not reached her by the end of the book)... all the while his internal dialogue gets more and more whiny. Gone is the quick-witted Imp who always has a few cards to play in his favor. He is now a babysitter for a young (and somewhat sow-headed) idealistic dwarf.
- Dany literally sits in one place, waiting for things to happen. Gone is the "Mother of Dragons" who makes decisions with authority. She is now Dany the great procrastinator and second-guesser, becoming uncertain at the mere sight of an alternate viewpoint.
- The major events for Jon also happen near the end, with no REAL character development for him on the whole... Just a repeat of "life is hard for Jon at the Wall."
Similarly, other characters with well established personalities seemed to suddenly become much weaker characters with little to compel them through their travails. Whereas once they were strong and decisive, in this book they seem to have suddenly become mere shadows of their former selves. Virtually none of the characters remained true to themselves. All in all, the book has that "stalling" feel... Like Martin was just filling word counts until he got to the cliffhangers... I honestly feel the book could have been trimmed to half and we wouldn't have lost any important information.
Martin did a superb job with his first three books in this series, and I'm holding out that he has some fantastic payoffs planned... But ADwD was underwhelming as a whole and I'd be lying if I said it did anything other than instill a serious sense of doubt in his ability to close the tale.
My personal opinion of the last 2 books is not so much disdain for the lengthy rambling about new characters, but that it was at the expense of the characters we already cared about. I remember Tyrion still had a lot of chapters, but Arya had like 7 combined in 2 massive books.
To get back to discussion about this week's episode, I do not expect much in terms of repercussions against Tyrion for his battlefield losses. Again, he is Hand of the Queen, not Commander of the army. Certainly, Dany was counting on his strategy to work, but Tyrion is not a battlefield commander, he is a political strategist and city manager. Essentially, he is a Senator while Jamie, Sir Jorah, Sir Davos, and Jon are all 5 star Generals. Dany doesn't have anymore 5 star Generals since she left Daario in Mereen but now she conveniently has Davos and Jon on her island. I expect Tyrion to admit as much in his pleas to Jon and Davos for help.
Number one character who was omitted from the show- Strong BelwasBallerStaf2003 said:
Totally agree...
So characters that are in the books that are not really in the show or have zero relevance:
Lady Stoneheart
Areo Hotah
Aryanne
Quentyn
Fake Targaryen
Victarion
Sansa's best friend Jayne Poole who actually was Ramsey's torture tool instead of Sansa while Sansa stayed in the Vale and made snow castles
Direwolves
Did I miss anyone?
Dude was ridiculous and awesome
You criticize the lack of character development for Jon Snow, but then you criticize GRRM for his development of Tyrion and Dany.
Tyrion's blood put him on trial for a murder he didn't commit, he found out his first love was fake, he murdered his father, and he has to run away from everything he's ever known. Of course he's whiny and soft. But eventually he will climb out of it when he meets Dany and becomes her Hand.
Likewise, Dany has never truly ruled before. She's faced with crap decision after crap decision, so of course she second guesses herself and gets a little paralyzed with fear. She's learning how to rule. But eventually she figures it out and will sail for Westeros.
Both of those plots are necessary character development. Though they make for extremely boring reads. I wish GRRM had made them shorter.
Tyrion's blood put him on trial for a murder he didn't commit, he found out his first love was fake, he murdered his father, and he has to run away from everything he's ever known. Of course he's whiny and soft. But eventually he will climb out of it when he meets Dany and becomes her Hand.
Likewise, Dany has never truly ruled before. She's faced with crap decision after crap decision, so of course she second guesses herself and gets a little paralyzed with fear. She's learning how to rule. But eventually she figures it out and will sail for Westeros.
Both of those plots are necessary character development. Though they make for extremely boring reads. I wish GRRM had made them shorter.
Not sure what/if anything happens to Tyrion but based on the previews it's pretty clear that Dany will no longer heed council of restraint (especially in terms of utilizing her dragons). I think the 'clever' games are over and she moves to a strategy of force.
cone said:jmo but that's pretty insulting to the artistQuote:
mistakes
he gets to explore the world he created from nothing
and he doesn't owe the audience a thing
I don't mean any offense to the man. He created something entirely unique and wonderful, and few people can say that. I only call them mistakes because GRRM has acknowledged problems in the past himself wherein it took him 5 years or something like to untie the "Meereenese Knot" he had created. I suppose "mistakes" might be too harsh, but I don't mean it as an insult.
I also disagree to an extent when it comes to whether or not an artist "owes" anything to his public. Certainly, an artist can choose to do whatever style he wishes, and fame or fortune might come as a consequence of that style. But I definitely think an artist has an obligation to his audience to finish.
How many episodes are left this season, 4? Story in the south will be wrapping up soon, bc Jon has to get back to the north and fight some more white walkers (season trailer). I wonder if that means after Dany wrecks the Lanister army, we see less of her this season.
You misunderstood my point. In my opinion, the character development in BOOK FIVE was not coherent with previous iterations of the characters core makeup. You can certainly rationalize these inconsistent character portrayals if you wish, but i did not view them as character development. There's no 'growth' in Tyrion becoming whiny. His life was already filled with injustices and trials, yet his wit remained his armor throughout. So NOW that he's a slave, it shifts to self bemoaning tendencies? Where is the development in that? Same for Dany. She evolved past the timid underling of others in book 1, yet now she is beholden to the trite opinion of others? That's not development in my eyes. That's regression at best....or simply inconsistent (as i've stated). We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.titanmaster_race said:
You criticize the lack of character development for Jon Snow, but then you criticize GRRM for his development of Tyrion and Dany.
Tyrion's blood put him on trial for a murder he didn't commit, he found out his first love was fake, he murdered his father, and he has to run away from everything he's ever known. Of course he's whiny and soft. But eventually he will climb out of it when he meets Dany and becomes her Hand.
Likewise, Dany has never truly ruled before. She's faced with crap decision after crap decision, so of course she second guesses herself and gets a little paralyzed with fear. She's learning how to rule. But eventually she figures it out and will sail for Westeros.
Both of those plots are necessary character development. Though they make for extremely boring reads. I wish GRRM had made them shorter.
and i guess i fundamentally disagreeQuote:
But I definitely think an artist has an obligation to his audience to finish.
dark tower disabused me of that
is half life imperfect art without a proper conclusion? does valve have an obligation?
Don't forget, Dany is a teenage girl that is struggling with ruling, wanting to keep slaves free, and her base desires with fckface Daario. She deals with all that so by the end of the book she can realize how much time she's wasted. Once she rides off with Drogon, I think she's turning back towards the bad ass that can burn a room full of Khals.
I'd argue that if an author says "I'm going to write one story over X number of books" and does not complete the series, it is considered a bait and switch.
But that's a different thing than writing a complete story in one book, suggesting there is another complete story in a future book, and not delivering that second story.
But that's a different thing than writing a complete story in one book, suggesting there is another complete story in a future book, and not delivering that second story.
I would also remind you that 'teenage' in Martin's world is not beholden to the same fallacies that a teenager in real life would suffer. Robb and Jon are both teenagers in the books while Sansa, Arya, and Bran aren't even beyond 12.redline248 said:
Don't forget, Dany is a teenage girl that is struggling with ruling, wanting to keep slaves free, and her base desires with fckface Daario. She deals with all that so by the end of the book she can realize how much time she's wasted. Once she rides off with Drogon, I think she's turning back towards the bad ass that can burn a room full of Khals.
And I'm not talking about Dany being a perfect ruler...but being a timid one was not something I expected (nor enjoyed).
Malcolm52 said:Number one character who was omitted from the show- Strong BelwasBallerStaf2003 said:
Totally agree...
So characters that are in the books that are not really in the show or have zero relevance:
Lady Stoneheart
Areo Hotah
Aryanne
Quentyn
Fake Targaryen
Victarion
Sansa's best friend Jayne Poole who actually was Ramsey's torture tool instead of Sansa while Sansa stayed in the Vale and made snow castles
Direwolves
Did I miss anyone?
Dude was ridiculous and awesome
I completely forgot they tried to poison Dany at the fighting pits instead of an ambush and strong Belwas ate it and still didn't die. What a bad ass.
Perfect example of why the show has been better, why just poison Dany? Go for the jugular and have all out assault
I think you're right. I'm hoping she takes her Dothraki and dragons to intercept the Lannister and Tarly armies on their way back to Kings Landing with the gold. If they make it back into the city and pay off the Iron Bank, Cersi is in a MUCH better spot going forward. I'm hoping Dany is able to do something to throw a wrench in that plan and there's no better way to utilize the Dothraki than in an open-field battle. No clue who the field general is for the Dothraki though. I'm concerned Randall Tarly and Jamie would be able to out maneuver a wild pack of Dothraki riders that have no strategy.
Just because you don't like the way the characters are developing, doesn't mean that they aren't developing. If you want to criticize Martin developing characters/story lines that are slow or uninteresting then go ahead, but they are developing.
I can't have the opinion that what you view as development is my view of inconsistent portrayals? I really don't care if you agree with me or not, but my overall opinion of book 5 is backed by more than just 'character development' issues. I was simply providing some of the overall assertions to support that opinion. If you disagree, I'm happy for you. I really am.Malcolm52 said:
Just because you don't like the way the characters are developing, doesn't mean that they aren't developing. If you want to criticize Martin developing characters/story lines that are slow or uninteresting then go ahead, but they are developing.
Robb and Jon both also let their hormones cloud their judgement, and it costs them both. One more than the other, but still.
lol well that's a fairly common foible for ALL men of any age. (just look at Maester Pycelle! lol)redline248 said:
Robb and Jon both also let their hormones cloud their judgement, and it costs them both. One more than the other, but still.
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