Did Zemo wait until he knew the Avengers were already starting to splinter, and then put his plan into motion? Or did both the accord and his plan to pit Iron Man vs Winter Soldier just so happen to coincide with each other?

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Did anyone else think that Martin Freeman's character is going to go bad at some point. I got that vibe. I don't read a lot of BP, but I'm pretty sure he is like a sidekick to him or his aide when he is doing king stuff.

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Everett Ross? If we are drawing directly from his comic book origins that is unlikely, if the wiki is to be trusted.

Still think there is any chance we get a Red Hulk appearance in the future? Maybe he becomes the Red Hulk and that gives the Accords less power because he was in charge of it.

That's fair. And I don't mean to have a shallow reading of it that death is the only result of consequence. The disarray of the Avengers will for sure reverberate throughout the MCU for a while. However for me, they've just been trying to get us to feel that death tinge so many times that it rings hollow until you actually do it. Fool me once with Coulson fine, Fool me again with Fury and all these trailer images of a broken shield and Tony holding a smoldering Rhodey that don't amount to anything and I start believing no one is in any actual danger.

At some point to me, the things you guys mention are more continuity than consequence, and I'm not sure any of those you could say is without a doubt permanent. While sad that Clint is on the run and can't see his family it's a far cry from burying him. I get that we're talking summer blockbusters and comics, and please god believe me when I say I definitely do not want BvS grimdark but I think a permanent ramification has yet to be felt and would add great weight. I dunno, maybe I watch too much Game of Thrones lol.

Rogue, here's my thoughts on those:
-Cap doesn't have his Avengers family as it was...but who is he really missing? Tony, Rhodey and Vision? And we all know by at latest Infinity War 2 they'll all be back fighting together, so where's the consequence?
-Tony and Cap are no longer friends...but Tony has a trap phone with a direct line to Cap if he ever needs him
-Bucky goes into Cryo...at which point Wakanda's ridiculously advanced doctors will fix his brain and give him a new arm.
-They're fugitives...which will be completely undone when the world begs them to fight Thanos.
-Rhodey with some StarkTech won't be effectively paralyzed for long and I have no doubt by Infinity War he'll be flying around as War Machine no worse for wear.
-Ross still called him and got put on hold at the end right? So not sure how disgraced Tony really is. Even then, I don't think Tony would care if he wasn't in the good graces of Ross.

Good discussion guys

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Did Zemo wait until he knew the Avengers were already starting to splinter, and then put his plan into motion? Or did both the accord and his plan to pit Iron Man vs Winter Soldier just so happen to coincide with each other?

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He set Bucky loose knowing Captain would do anything to protect him. He also knew how Iron Man would react when he found out Bucky killed his parents. Even if it didn't fracture the whole team, Iron Man and Cap would be torn asunder, which would have devastating effects upon the team, even if the accords didn't happen.

My guess, anyway.

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I would agree with this. If you divide the team or at the very least fracture Cap and Tony, then you have effectively broken the backbone of the Avengers.

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At some point to me, the things you guys mention are more continuity than consequence, and I'm not sure any of those you could say is without a doubt permanent.

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In this case, continuity and consequence are not mutually exclusive and the consequences don't have to be permanent to be consequences.

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I dunno, maybe I watch too much Game of Thrones lol.

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Probably. Setting your expectations for an MCU movie to have the same consequences as GoT is simply unrealistic IMO.

Dude, it was a joke. I don't expect an MCU Red Wedding. I think we're just going around in circles. We'll just have to disagree.

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That's fair. And I don't mean to have a shallow reading of it that death is the only result of consequence. The disarray of the Avengers will for sure reverberate throughout the MCU for a while. However for me, they've just been trying to get us to feel that death tinge so many times that it rings hollow until you actually do it. Fool me once with Coulson fine, Fool me again with Fury and all these trailer images of a broken shield and Tony holding a smoldering Rhodey that don't amount to anything and I start believing no one is in any actual danger.

At some point to me, the things you guys mention are more continuity than consequence, and I'm not sure any of those you could say is without a doubt permanent. While sad that Clint is on the run and can't see his family it's a far cry from burying him. I get that we're talking summer blockbusters and comics, and please god believe me when I say I definitely do not want BvS grimdark but I think a permanent ramification has yet to be felt and would add great weight. I dunno, maybe I watch too much Game of Thrones lol.

Rogue, here's my thoughts on those:
-Cap doesn't have his Avengers family as it was...but who is he really missing? Tony, Rhodey and Vision? And we all know by at latest Infinity War 2 they'll all be back fighting together, so where's the consequence?
-Tony and Cap are no longer friends...but Tony has a trap phone with a direct line to Cap if he ever needs him
-Bucky goes into Cryo...at which point Wakanda's ridiculously advanced doctors will fix his brain and give him a new arm.
-They're fugitives...which will be completely undone when the world begs them to fight Thanos.
-Rhodey with some StarkTech won't be effectively paralyzed for long and I have no doubt by Infinity War he'll be flying around as War Machine no worse for wear.
-Ross still called him and got put on hold at the end right? So not sure how disgraced Tony really is. Even then, I don't think Tony would care if he wasn't in the good graces of Ross.

Good discussion guys

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Well, if you read many comics you know death is pretty much the same as well. It hardly ever sticks. Still, I expect sometime soon we'll see the perma-death of one of these characters, simply because the actor is ready to move on.

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Did Zemo wait until he knew the Avengers were already starting to splinter, and then put his plan into motion? Or did both the accord and his plan to pit Iron Man vs Winter Soldier just so happen to coincide with each other?

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He set Bucky loose knowing Captain would do anything to protect him. He also knew how Iron Man would react when he found out Bucky killed his parents. Even if it didn't fracture the whole team, Iron Man and Cap would be torn asunder, which would have devastating effects upon the team, even if the accords didn't happen.

My guess, anyway.

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I would agree with this. If you divide the team or at the very least fracture Cap and Tony, then you have effectively broken the backbone of the Avengers.

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They are dialectical opposites. They pull all team members one way or the other philosohpically. If they work together then everyone is on board. If they fight then everyone chooses sides. Few on the team are close to neutral, though BW and Hawkeye are close (as they worked with Shield prior).

As they have written the scripts and characters there are no other real philosophical conflicts in the group that would have this gravity and effect.

Also after three iron man movies and cap's movies and tv exposure I would imagine the average marvel universe joe could have some idea of their reactions, especially someone who spent as much time studying and plotting revenge as zemo did.

What was going on with Winter Soldiers arm and T'challa's ring?

I want to assume they reacted because the ring sense Vibranium maybe. I don't know if its been stated what his arm is made out of. Granted, since Stark blew it off, I assume it isn't vibranium.

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I want to assume they reacted because the ring sense Vibranium maybe. I don't know if its been stated what his arm is made out of. Granted, since Stark blew it off, I assume it isn't vibranium.

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I bet it is next time we see him with it. He just happens to know a guy and be in a certain county.

So what is the stuff crossbones is stealing, and what was in Starks trunk? 5 bags of blood?

I swore those 5 other winter soldiers were gonna end up being the introduction of the Winter Guard

Spiderman was hilarious, and they even explain the eyes... Love how tony keeps calling aunt may aunt hottie and stuff... Petter was like hey y'all seen the empire strikes back? Those giant walker things. And when he is fighting Rogers, he was like stark said to go for your legs which is funny cause you think everyone would just shoot his legs out instead of shooting at his shield. He's only been Spiderman for 6 months. Wonder if the new movie will pick up where we left off, or go back about 7 ish months and learn how it happened

When zemo was reading from the book I found it ironic that one word was homecoming and it was said many times.

Loved giant man. Right before he gets big he's running on that platform and he's like covering 0 ground but they make it so dramatic was funny. And when he makes that tanker large, he was like shoot! I thought it was water!!

Would have been cool to see other prisoners in the prison. At first when Clint was yelling at tony, I thought it was Hammer.

LOVED black panther, his movie is gonna be awesome. Why did his ring and buckys arm do that weird thing? Also wakanda looked awesome in the post trailer.

I thought it was Hammer at first as well. I agree that I'd liked to have seen another few prisoners, even if they were Easter egg types. Maybe a couple of guys the AoS team had put away.

Man, vox.com's review was glowing, called it the best Marvel movie yet. I can't wait to go see this.
http://www.vox.com/2016/5/5/11574504/captain-america-civil-war-movie-review

Something else i loved but forgot to mention. When making a big jump/landing, the Avengers all make noise hitting the ground... except Black Panther. He's silent, like a cat.

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So what is the stuff crossbones is stealing, and what was in Starks trunk? 5 bags of blood?

I swore those 5 other winter soldiers were gonna end up being the introduction of the Winter Guard

Spiderman was hilarious, and they even explain the eyes... Love how tony keeps calling aunt may aunt hottie and stuff... Petter was like hey y'all seen the empire strikes back? Those giant walker things. And when he is fighting Rogers, he was like stark said to go for your legs which is funny cause you think everyone would just shoot his legs out instead of shooting at his shield. He's only been Spiderman for 6 months. Wonder if the new movie will pick up where we left off, or go back about 7 ish months and learn how it happened

When zemo was reading from the book I found it ironic that one word was homecoming and it was said many times.

Loved giant man. Right before he gets big he's running on that platform and he's like covering 0 ground but they make it so dramatic was funny. And when he makes that tanker large, he was like shoot! I thought it was water!!

Would have been cool to see other prisoners in the prison. At first when Clint was yelling at tony, I thought it was Hammer.

LOVED black panther, his movie is gonna be awesome. Why did his ring and buckys arm do that weird thing? Also wakanda looked awesome in the post trailer.

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I also really loved that Tony just said "no thanks" and basically skipped the "backstory" part of how he got his powers and became spiderman.

saw it again tonight. good, but didn't hold up as well.

fave thing i noticed this time around...little I know...is that Bucky switches grip/hands on his gun when walking around corners. thought Sebastian Stan outdid himself in this one, very very solid. whenever TWS is triggered, that's when the real movie starts. the first hour is actually pretty meh.

Why Civil War beats BvS in this round Marvel vs DC



-----Don't read any further if you don't want a spoiler Batman vs Superman ... (BvS).. .. so you been warned ----------------------------------



What I find funny is that Civil War and BvS are basically the same movie.

You have a normal human (Zemo/Lex Luthor) who wants to tear apart the hero.

In the end both human are capture and put in prison

In the background, the public have turned against heroes for the damage they cause and governments are force to act. (Accords/commission)

While this is going on the two main hero families are used against them to force them to fight each other .. in both an indirect way and direct way. Zemo - indirect (Bucky) direct (Stark Family death) .. Luthor - indirect (Wayne employee death) direct (Stealing Martha)

Both movies used mother names to connect characters .. Bucky tells Capt his mom name .. and Martha for BvS

In the end the hero join together to fight a worse common villain.. here is where the movie become different

So what makes them different
BvS the hero fight the villain (Doomsday) for a 30+ min third act .. Civil War killed off the third random villain w/o a fight (4 Winter Soldier)

So both movie are long.. Marvel spent their extra minutes on developing characters and plots

Also in BvS one of the main hero dies (Superman) while in Civil War .. they easily could have killed Capt America but instead choose to have a symbolic death of Iron Man .. in the end I think this is what makes

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Petter was like hey y'all seen the empire strikes back? Those giant walker things

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The "Hey, this reminds me of a really old movie. It's called ESB" actually had me rolling. Little *****!

I was thoroughly satisfied

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Something else i loved but forgot to mention. When making a big jump/landing, the Avengers all make noise hitting the ground... except Black Panther. He's silent, like a cat.

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LOVED THIS!

Loved it, but definitely left me wanting more. Pissed that we have to wait until 2018 for the Black Panther movie. I think I hyped myself up for it so much that I was a little let down. Still a top 5 comic movie of all time for me. I think it falls right between the first Avengers and TWS on my rankings.

A couple things from reading this thread:
Saw it in 2D and the camerawork in the first scene didn't bother me at all, and I usually hate that. I do wonder if it is just something that didn't translate to 3D well.
Loved that this was the first MCU movie where the villain wins. (As far as I can remember)
I do wish they had played up the politics angle just a little bit more, to keep TWS genre going.
My favorite parts of this show were not action scenes, even though it wouldn't have been a Marvel movie without those.
Again, Black Panther solo movie can not come soon enough.

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Petter was like hey y'all seen the empire strikes back? Those giant walker things

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The "Hey, this reminds me of a really old movie. It's called ESB" actually had me rolling. Little *****!

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Don't do the math on how old it actually is

Did everyone's movie also just start.....like outta the blue, a movie preview ended then BOOM, it just started and it never said the title of the movie until the end of the movie in the credits also no standard marvel comic reel at the start, which I thought was off.... Like watching iron man 3 now....starts off with some stuff then does the comic reel and title, then movie starts

So many people that worked on BvS just got fired. WB has to be rethinking zach Snyder's level of involvement right now if they weren't already.

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So many people that worked on BvS just got fired. WB has to be rethinking zach Snyder's level of involvement right now if they weren't already.

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Where are you getting this?

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and what was in Starks trunk? 5 bags of blood?

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My assumption is that it was the super soldier serum or something similar. Especially when you see the flashback scene where the one guy beats WS and then you see all 5 easily beating down the guards.

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So many people that worked on BvS just got fired. WB has to be rethinking zach Snyder's level of involvement right now if they weren't already.

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Where are you getting this?

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More importantly, what does any of that have to do with Civil War?