Davos clearly says "Tell him what you did to HER" only his pronunciation is "err".

He wants Melisandre to tell Jon what she did to Shireen - in reference to the burnt stag he found.

hard to follow up a post like that


Great action and everything, but I'm frustrated at the whole angle of Sansa not telling Jon that there is a small possibility that a huge army could help us out if we just wait. The Vale swooping in to save the day at literally the last minute was just too easy.

Looking fwd to the finale

Is this thinking that Dario is the Harpy leader? Would he just kill those he's leading to keep his cover?

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Dany summed up the story last season...she is going to break the wheel. In E9 she broke the slaver's bay wheel and she broke the Ironborn wheel. She will continue to break all the wheels in the male dominated feudal society they live in. And wheels she doesn't yet know exist.

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Good luck supporting an army when you don't have any wheels to move supplies around

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She can start Dragon Airlines.

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hard to follow up a post like that


Great action and everything, but I'm frustrated at the whole angle of Sansa not telling Jon that there is a small possibility that a huge army could help us out if we just wait. The Vale swooping in to save the day at literally the last minute was just too easy.

Looking fwd to the finale

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I've got two defenses, don't know if either actually applies, but:

1. Sansa was worried Jon would've refused the help coming from Littlefinger (obvious flaws in this line of thinking).

2. They couldn't wait any longer. They hint in the earlier conversations that they're in danger of freezing if they wait too long. There's also the problem that Ramsey could very easily march out and engage them whether they're ready to fight or not. In war, you don't usually get to wait around until the perfect time to fight. That's what made George Washington's campaign in the American Revolution so unusual. He basically evaded the British until the perfect time when he knew he could win (Crossing the Delaware river, anybody?)

That's all I got. I assume the writers will give some throwaway line about it in the next episode.

I think that she didn't tell Jon bc she knew she would have to marry littlefinger and so she was trying to see if they could get the troops another way before going that route. Once she realized it wasn't going to happen she was like "screw it". Jon probably wouldn't have accepted the help if he knew what she would have to sacrifice to get it.

I just thought about this, is it just my recollection or was the battlefield not all snowy?

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I just thought about this, is it just my recollection or was the battlefield not all snowy?

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Certainly not all snowy. There seemed to be snow around but it was not like all of the ground was covered.

Seemed like the rode in to meet through some snowy areas. Then the actual field was lightly dusted if anything.

Perhaps they had snows earlier and had cleared the field with snowblowers you know like the NFL.

I think we are just supposed to kind of ignore that. Would have made it much harder to film.

Yeah, absolutely would have made it harder to film, especially for continuity standpoint.

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Great action and everything, but I'm frustrated at the whole angle of Sansa not telling Jon that there is a small possibility that a huge army could help us out if we just wait. The Vale swooping in to save the day at literally the last minute was just too easy.

Looking fwd to the finale

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I think Sansa is motivated by a lack of trust in Jon and his advisors to win this fight. Turns out she was right. Jon did screw up. Not necessarily by going after Rickon, but by letting his rage get the best of him and charging alone towards the Bolton lines after Rickon was dead. Then, Davos screwed up by sending their forces after him.

Also, I feel like LF is making all the decisions here. I don't think Sansa is in contact with the KotV. However, I do think LF has spies and scouts tracking the situation. It doesn't look like Royce is there (not with LF and Sansa watching), so if the KotV show up early, they likely get put under Jon's command. LF would rather watch and see what happens before he makes his move.

If Sansa is in contact with LF, then she still has motivation not to tell Jon. Three things could happen and two aren't good. I'm still assuming Jon would command the KotV with no Royce present. Jon could incorporate them into his battle lines, meaning they get slaughtered when Davos sends them charging after Jon (loss). Or, Ramsay could see them, decide the odds aren't in his favor, and withdraw within the walls (long siege). Or, they could hide them in reserve and crush the Boltons after they commit to their game plan (win).

So, it makes sense for Sansa and/or LF to hide the KotV and see how the battle goes. If Jon wins, they learn he is a remarkable battle commander. If not, the KotV can swoop in and save the day. It is a win/win for Sansa and LF either way. Jon and Davos are the only ones that seem to care how many men die.

The director talked about having to re-prep the field every time they did another take. I think it was a light dusting of snow, but nothing like what you saw when Davos pulled the burned carving out of the pile. It basically all turned to mud during the battle.

This is a pretty good summary of the tactics used:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2016/06/21/a_tactical_look_at_the_battle_of_the_*******s_in_game_of_thrones_video.html

The best line: "Ramsey's archers were killed in a tragic continuity error."

May have to replace ******** with b a s t a r d s

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Remember LF's deal with Cersei - he was going to rally the Vale army and see who won between Boltons and Stannis army and then wipe out the other force in exchange for a decree making him Warden of the North.

Thats exactly what he did. In reality I doubt Sansa's letter even had much impact. This is what LF was going to do all along anyway. He told sansa he would help and she refused. Odds are he was planning to do this anyway REGARDLESS of Sansa's letter.

He wanted to take the north before any of this happened. Before Sansa escaped, before Jon left the wall and gathered an army.

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with Ramsay dead does Littlefinger now have the biggest winning streak?
#ChaosLadder

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In reality I doubt Sansa's letter even had much impact. This is what LF was going to do all along anyway.

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The best defense of this argument is how long it would take the Knights of the Vale to get from Moat Cailin to Winterfell after receiving Sansa's letter. LF had to be anticipating the need for the Vale to be on standby...although, then how would he have ever gotten her letter if he wasn't waiting in Moat Cailin.

The above is all said tongue in cheek, as we are constantly having to ignore distances of travel. As you said, though, Occam's razor suggests the simple answer.

We saw Sansa argue for needing more men, we saw Sansa write a letter and send it, LF is the only one she knew about with more men, and we know he has repeatedly told her he would help her in anyway possible. All that adds up to Sansa asking for help from LF and him coming to provide that help.

yeah well LF could well have been on his way toward WF already.

as for the letter. we have seen "mail" redirected before.

Remember Cersei sent a letter to LF requesting he come to KL. she sent the letter to the Vale but LF was already en route to WF to marry Sansa off to Ramsay. the letter arrived in WF (Roose Bolton said it came from the Vale) and Roose Bolton opened it before giving it to LF.

So anyway the letter to Moat Cailin might have been redirected to wherever LF was....or a scout was sent on fast horse alone (much faster than an army can march anyway) and caught up to them.....OR.....like I said LF was heading that way anyway, never got the letter but was planning to do it anyway.

It is much further from Castle Black to Winterfell though, than from Moat Cailin to Winterfell (about half the distance roughly). And the Starks were running around looking for reinforcements for a while.

Ah thanks for clarifying. I didn't have the ability to rewind

-Sansa's letters always found their way to Littlefinger but no one was able to warn Ramsay that the KotV were in the area.

-Littlefinger is undefeated. He is the new Warden of the North by King's decree while Sansa and the ******* Nights watch deserter/battlefield defeated Jon Snow now don't trust each other. He probably knew Ramsey would abuse Sansa but it was worth the risk. He knew the Blackfish was besieged at Riverrun and exploited the situation to bring Sansa back to his favor. He controls the Lord of the Vale.

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-Sansa's letters always found their way to Littlefinger but no one was able to warn Ramsay that the KotV were in the area.

-Littlefinger is undefeated. He is the new Warden of the North by King's decree while Sansa and the ******* Nights watch deserter/battlefield defeated Jon Snow now don't trust each other. He probably knew Ramsey would abuse Sansa but it was worth the risk. He knew the Blackfish was besieged at Riverrun and exploited the situation to bring Sansa back to his favor. He controls the Lord of the Vale.

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LetterS? To our knowledge, she only sent one and she sent it by raven. I understand ravens CAN be shot down, but I imagine they often get through as well.

Also, I don't think it is unreasonable that the KotV were able to sneak up on the battle. Ramsey probably had his scouts scouting Jon's army and then were involved in the fight. At the time of the big battle, there probably weren't many scouts on the backside of the city and even if there were, they would have given Ramsey maybe a 5-10 minute heads up. Not enough to swing the tide.

Yea, I kind of agree with you, but the biggest difference is that the injuries to the women are emotional ones while the injuries to the men are physical ones. Perhaps this is done on purpose, women are more emotional beings while men are more likely to see their bodies as tools.

Dany - Sold into a forced marriage (including early rape), constantly talked down to, her possessions taken from her,verbally abused, sometimes physically but no scars.

Sansa - Verbally and emotionally abused by Joffrey, kidnapped by Littlefinger, then raped and held captive by Ramsey.

Yara - Told she wasn't fit to rule because she was a woman.

Cersei - Glass ceiling, was never able to rise to king, but instead saw her ****ty little kids strip her of what power she was able to get. Stripped naked, hair cut, forced to walk the streets in shame.

Gilly - Insulted and talked down to because she was a wildling. Raped by her father.

Brienne - Family died early, was constantly ridiculed for her height and her profession.

Compared to

Bran - Physically disabled from waist down.

Jaime - Fighting hand cut off.

Jorah - greyscale

Theon, Grey Worm, and Varys - rod and reels removed.

Tyrion - being a dworf. This is different than Brienne because she is abnormally tall for a woman, but he is abnormally short for a human. He's physically incapable of doing things many other humans can do.

The Mountain - Not sure if this was a physical improvement or not, but he was certainly physically changed. And it certainly had an impact on his personality and self-value as a human.

Doran - Even Prince Doran was physically impaired.

Samwell - Well he is more of a girl anyways so his is again emotional abuse.

Not saying it is the case for everyone, but I understand how MEN who watch the show see women as able to fully recover from their emotional injuries but can't see the men as ever able to fully recover from their physical injuries. Not saying it is right or wrong, just an observation.

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Also, I don't think it is unreasonable that the KotV were able to sneak up on the battle. Ramsey probably had his scouts scouting Jon's army and then were involved in the fight. At the time of the big battle, there probably weren't many scouts on the backside of the city and even if there were, they would have given Ramsey maybe a 5-10 minute heads up. Not enough to swing the tide.

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I'm referring more to Ramsay being ignorant of the KoftV apparently waltzing into Moat Cailin and hanging out for a period of time while Littlefinger patiently waited for the right time to attack. We know that the Boltons took Moat Cailin at some point. We know that Moat Cailin has never been defeated from a southern attack. We know Littlefinger was going to choose the winning team to ally with out of Bolton vs Northern attackers. Huge miss by Ramsay to not know what was going on down there.

Did he say "my army will be waiting in Moat Cailin"? Or "I will be waiting in Moat Cailin"?

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-Sansa's letters always found their way to Littlefinger but no one was able to warn Ramsay that the KotV were in the area.

-Littlefinger is undefeated. He is the new Warden of the North by King's decree while Sansa and the ******* Nights watch deserter/battlefield defeated Jon Snow now don't trust each other. He probably knew Ramsey would abuse Sansa but it was worth the risk. He knew the Blackfish was besieged at Riverrun and exploited the situation to bring Sansa back to his favor. He controls the Lord of the Vale.

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I thought at some point Cersei found out that LF married Sansa to Ramsay and got super pissed. She also wanted Sansa's head on a spike. I may be wrong on the first part but I'm pretty damn sure about the second. So I don't think the royal decree means much. And it will probably mean even less soon when Tommen dies (this death is my opinion I know nothing)

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Also, I don't think it is unreasonable that the KotV were able to sneak up on the battle. Ramsey probably had his scouts scouting Jon's army and then were involved in the fight. At the time of the big battle, there probably weren't many scouts on the backside of the city and even if there were, they would have given Ramsey maybe a 5-10 minute heads up. Not enough to swing the tide.

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I'm referring more to Ramsay being ignorant of the KoftV apparently waltzing into Moat Cailin and hanging out for a period of time while Littlefinger patiently waited for the right time to attack. We know that the Boltons took Moat Cailin at some point. We know that Moat Cailin has never been defeated from a southern attack. We know Littlefinger was going to choose the winning team to ally with out of Bolton vs Northern attackers. Huge miss by Ramsay to not know what was going on down there.

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The Knights could have got to Moat Cailin by sea and taken it from the North

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I know this is out of left field but is Yara bi/gay in the books? If there were hints at it I missed it, you can tell she's a tomboy at minimum. But I don't recall anything specific in the books. Her scene with Dany, the "I'm up for anything." line is what makes me ask. That and the non spoiler thread...

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I am rereading the fourth book right now, and Asha is talking to Tristopher Botley and recalling their first night together, and how he put his hands up her shirt and she would have let him do more if he had been more bold.

She then goes on about how she thought she was in love but he wanted a family and children, and she wanted adventures. Then she recalled how his "fondlings had begun to bore her." And he would not want to hear that.

Then he made an advance on her, and she told him that she had touched hundreds of men, with her lips and her axe.

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I know this is out of left field but is Yara bi/gay in the books? If there were hints at it I missed it, you can tell she's a tomboy at minimum. But I don't recall anything specific in the books. Her scene with Dany, the "I'm up for anything." line is what makes me ask. That and the non spoiler thread...

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I am rereading the fourth book right now, and Asha is talking to Tristopher Botley and recalling their first night together, and how he put his hands up her shirt and she would have let him do more if he had been more bold.

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Ha, I had a girl tell me this too. I was 15 and she was 18. About 5 years later when she got engaged I joked that I wished I had done more and she said I should have! I was like damnit!

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Also, I don't think it is unreasonable that the KotV were able to sneak up on the battle. Ramsey probably had his scouts scouting Jon's army and then were involved in the fight. At the time of the big battle, there probably weren't many scouts on the backside of the city and even if there were, they would have given Ramsey maybe a 5-10 minute heads up. Not enough to swing the tide.

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I'm referring more to Ramsay being ignorant of the KoftV apparently waltzing into Moat Cailin and hanging out for a period of time while Littlefinger patiently waited for the right time to attack. We know that the Boltons took Moat Cailin at some point. We know that Moat Cailin has never been defeated from a southern attack. We know Littlefinger was going to choose the winning team to ally with out of Bolton vs Northern attackers. Huge miss by Ramsay to not know what was going on down there.

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The Knights could have got to Moat Cailin by sea and taken it from the North

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I found a Reddit thread on this topic and some pointed out that from the Bolton's perspective Littlefinger was still in alliance with them due to the Sansa marriage and that LF had informed Roose in season 5 that he would return with reinforcements - LF covers all his bases. So it's probable that the Bolton garrison at Moat Cailin let the KotV camp and pass through with no issue as they thought they were headed north to support Winterfell. Would have been interesting if they portrayed the battle as Ramsey seeing the KotV arrive and assuming they are there to support him only to have LF turn on him.

So who is Lord of Winterfell now? Sansa or LF? LF has an army & a royal decree. Seems like he can take it if he wants it.

No wonder Grey Worm is into her despite being castrated.

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So who is Lord of Winterfell now? Sansa or LF? LF has an army & a royal decree. Seems like he can take it if he wants it.

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I think that is what LF states in the Godswood when he asks what she expected.