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Plus, you know of know he's going to die terribly because he's Cersei's kid.

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I think Cersei herself will kill Tommen. She's realized he's weak.

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Not sure if serious. If so this is the LEAST likely thing to have happen. Ever.

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We will see. She was going to kill him to keep him from being captured seasons ago. The look on her face when he sided with the Sparrows and then kept her away from him is why I think that. She's lost all control of him and knows it.

She realized he will never be a strong king, the king they and she deserve in her mind, and she knows about the prophecy of her kids dying. I know she's fiercely defended them until now, but I think it's very plausible given where her life is now. Even more so if Margaery is pregnant to carry on the line.


We know he dies, I just think it's Cersi that does it, but out of a warped sense of loyalty to Kings Landing and saving him from a possible worse death.

But we will see.

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The only way that happens is if she thinks she's saving him from some worse death, or maybe if she goes crazy and it's some type of double suicide situation. The series has hammered home that nothing is more important to Cersei than her children. She's literally torn apart the seven kingdoms because of her love for them.

I don't think Cersei will intentionally kill Tommen...something will happen to him to send her over the edge

Hasn't been said, that's why I ask. But I would assume she has it now and can do with it what she wants.

Have we talked about the possibility that the Valonqar prophecy refers to Tommen? Is there any way to reconcile that to the current state of the show?

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So who has the Dreadfort now?

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Davos or Tormund?

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Lady Bolton

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Just burn it to the ground.

She wanted nothing left of the Boltons. that would do it.

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Have we talked about the possibility that the Valonqar prophecy refers to Tommen? Is there any way to reconcile that to the current state of the show?

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sure i mean he is a younger brother.....but in reference to Cersei it would seem you wouldn't call him that, rather younger son.

Plus the prophecy specifically says she will outlive her children. Hard to do if one of them kills you.

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Cersei: Will the king and I have children?

M****: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

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Brienne is already heiress to Tarth

Ah, forgot that last part about outliving them, thanks.

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The Three Eyed-Raven/Bloodraven was a Targaryen so he has an interest in seeing the family continue. He seemed to have visited that scene at the Tower before he showed it to Bran. Did he download the Matrix into Bran?

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Where is this said/stated? If in the books I've long forgotten.

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Dunk and Egg. He was a greenseer, warg, and sorceror. He went to the wall with Maester Aemon and 200 Targaryen troops. Became the commander for awhile, then went north to find the children.

Lots of spoilers and theories here: http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2015/01/29-top-42-brynden-rivers/index.html Basically it theorizes that he is the backbone of the whole story, with a focus on Jon and Bran.

He also never focuses on Dany which is odd because everyone assumes her and the dragons will be used against the Others.

Looking forward to the conflict between Jon and Sansa. I suspect eventually it will be Sansa (manipulated by LF) going up against Snow who is on Danny's side.

I said this a while agoz

I gotta think that ToJ happens next week. I'm also hoping that the crypts finally play a role. It's always seemed as if they are important. A ton of characters dream of them. Lyanna has a crypt there which is unusual no? Isn't it mostly just the old kings of winter and lords of Winterfell? There's been theories that some clue, like Rhaegar's unique harp, might be present there. I don't know that that would mean anything to most though.

I believe Tyrion had returned them, but in the books they have not made it to Winterfell... Lady Dustin said she wanted to seize them and scattered them because Ned did not bring back the bones of her husband killed at the Tower of Joy

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I gotta think that ToJ happens next week. I'm also hoping that the crypts finally play a role. It's always seemed as if they are important. A ton of characters dream of them. Lyanna has a crypt there which is unusual no? Isn't it mostly just the old kings of winter and lords of Winterfell? There's been theories that some clue, like Rhaegar's unique harp, might be present there. I don't know that that would mean anything to most though.

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No it is not unusual that Lyanna has a crypt. Most/all Starks are buried there. In fact in the books it is revealed that there are already crypts waiting for Robb, Sansa, Bran, Rickon, and Arya. What is unusual is she (and her brother Brandon) have statues. That is usually reserved for Kings and Lords of the North. It was done by Ned according to Bran.



As to the reveal - Yes, we certainly have ALL of the elements to make the full reveal and anything else possible.

• the Starks are back in Winterfell where the crypts are
• Littlefinger is there we don't know if he knows, but he sure talked about it a lot and gave Sansa a smirk when they last talked about it
• Bran who has seen the first half of the episode at the TOJ is heading the wall presumably and maybe WF
• Benjen is with him one of the few people outside of Howland Reed who might know anything - Ned may have told him something or documented something that Benjen knows is in the crypts

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Have we talked about the possibility that the Valonqar prophecy refers to Tommen? Is there any way to reconcile that to the current state of the show?

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sure i mean he is a younger brother.....but in reference to Cersei it would seem you wouldn't call him that, rather younger son.

Plus the prophecy specifically says she will outlive her children. Hard to do if one of them kills you.

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Cersei: Will the king and I have children?

M****: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

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Very plausible that Tommen is collateral damage if Cersei blows the place up. Valonqar then becomes Jaime.

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Yeah and the dragon that sleeps down there that keeps the spring warm.

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Don't forget about the ice dragon that keeps the pool in the godswood cold!

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No it is not unusual that Lyanna has a crypt. Most/all Starks are buried there. In fact in the books it is revealed that there are already crypts waiting for Robb, Sansa, Bran, Rickon, and Arya. What is unusual is she (and her brother Brandon) have statues. That is usually reserved for Kings and Lords of the North. It was done by Ned according to Bran.

As to the reveal - Yes, we certainly have ALL of the elements to make the full reveal and anything else possible.

• the Starks are back in Winterfell where the crypts are
• Littlefinger is there we don't know if he knows, but he sure talked about it a lot and gave Sansa a smirk when they last talked about it
• Bran who has seen the first half of the episode at the TOJ is heading the wall presumably and maybe WF
• Benjen is with him one of the few people outside of Howland Reed who might know anything - Ned may have told him something or documented something that Benjen knows is in the crypts

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Ahh the statues are what was odd. Was Brandon killed right before or after their father? If after, I guess he was technically Lord of Winterfell for a moment. Lyanna's is much odder I'm sure.

Lyanna lived longer than Brandon did. Brandon strangled himself on a rope trying to reach a sword that would allow him to save his father, Rickard, who was being roasted alive inside his armor by the Mad King. Lyanna would have been with Rhaegar at the time, presumably at the ToJ

Lyanna died after her dad and brother. Rhaegar "kidnapped" her, then Rickard and Brandon die in Kings Landing, then Robert starts the rebellion, kills Rhaegar, takes KL, then Ned goes to ToJ to find Lyanna dying.

He is asking if Brandon died before Rickard.

It's unknown I think. Brandon strangled himself trying to reach a sword to save his father who was boiling inside his armor. Hard to say who died first. Only Aerys probably knew if anyone. And he's dead too.


I'm not sure that would make Brandon lord of WF anyway. Likely have to be sworn in it take an oath or something.

I'm laughing at you folks who think this has any kind of traditional happy ending - Jon and Dany, Sansa as Wardeness of the North, Tyrion as master of anything, the Iron Throne assumed by "good guys" (whomever that might be). The remaining lines of the houses don't matter a lick.

That whole world is going to be different. Changed. I have zero idea what GRRM has in mind for the story arc, but there is zero chance it is a normal ending with all the questions answered and the bow neatly tied on top. His goal is to turn paradigms on end. Either the WW's will turn out to have the justification and they rule, or the government left standing will look nothing like the city-state monarchies currently ruling.

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He is asking if Brandon died before Rickard.

It's unknown I think. Brandon strangled himself trying to reach a sword to save his father who was boiling inside his armor. Hard to say who died first. Only Aerys probably knew if anyone. And he's dead too.


I'm not sure that would make Brandon lord of WF anyway. Likely have to be sworn in it take an oath or something.

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Yeah sorry I should have been more specific. I know how they all I died, I was just wondering about the order. You're right that even if he died after his father, he may not have officially been lord of WF yet. Just trying to find details that fit the tinfoil theory I want to be true.

Maybe statues because Brandon is Lord of winter del and sister was married to Rhaegar, therefore a queen.

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Maybe statues because Brandon is Lord of winter del and sister was married to Rhaegar, therefore a queen.

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could be....and maybe whatever proves that is buried with her - and Benjen knows that.

i'm working on a theory of all this myself.....

I just can't figure out what could be in the crypts that would expose R+L=J that wouldn't have been found before. Unless it's actually in Lyanna's crypt, and why would they open it?

And even then, it would have to be something really obvious, like a Targaryan wedding cloak (or maybe a baby blanket embroidered with "Jon", lol). I just can't think of something that would make it clear that Jon is Lyanna's baby.

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Or, maybe they have statues bc when Ned became Lord of Winterfell he ordered statues to be made for them.

Why does everything have to be so freaking complicated?

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Yea, and I'm fairly certain the books mention it being unusual that he erected a statue of Lyanna.

I doubt any Stark had that many relatives die in such short order often