***Official GAME OF THRONES Season 6 (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)***
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Last: 8 yr ago by hunter2012
quote:How so?
Forshadowing?
https://m.imgur.com/a/iE9C7#0G71Zns
(Found on Reddit)
Ok, what about this.
Arya escapes the Waif, the Waif follows her trail, Arya attacks her and kills her in the dark, finally freeing herself of the Waif. Then Jaqen suddenly shows up and stabs Arya, killing that body, but then Jaqen turns into Arya?
Arya escapes the Waif, the Waif follows her trail, Arya attacks her and kills her in the dark, finally freeing herself of the Waif. Then Jaqen suddenly shows up and stabs Arya, killing that body, but then Jaqen turns into Arya?
She says no one's going to kill her.
The faceless men people call themselves no one.
The faceless men people call themselves no one.
quote:The Waif would be "no one" and Arya is foreshadowing that "no one" will kill her. Saying the Waif is the one who kills her.quote:How so?
Forshadowing?
https://m.imgur.com/a/iE9C7#0G71Zns
(Found on Reddit)
Ahh....that'd be a BIG end around if so.
quote:
Problem with Fight Club theory is it is just completely out of character with the rest of the novels. We have seen psychosis in this world and none of it has manifested in that way.
It's not psychosis......and it's completely foreign to 99.9% of the population so I wouldn't say it is out of character with the rest of the novels - I mean it is, but it is supposed to be. Faceless Men are extremely rare and their training is unique.
It started when Arya drank the water or whatever in the house of black and white. That probably was part of manifesting this waif persona in her mind. And she drank it again when she regained her sight.
quote:Here is the other problem, if Arya becomes a faceless man then she essentially dies. I mean, to truly become No one, then you have to remove everything about her that makes her unique other than her physical appearance, and that is interchangeable. So, say they do something like others have suggested and they have the Waif killing Arya and then pulling off her face and showing Arya's face underneath, at that point, who are we watching? Are we watching Arya? Are we watching the Waif? Are we watching Jaquen? More importantly, do we care at this point? I mean, was Arya just a long set-up to introduce the Faceless Men cult as a new POV character? Or is it all just to show us that eventually, down the line, some Faceless man wearing Arya's face is going to assassinate somebody that Arya hated or wanted assassinated? And never mind that the assassination will come because somebody paid the faceless men to do it and it would have happened whether Arya had decided to become a Faceless Man or not, and never mind that Arya can't even take any satisfaction in the killing or feel any sense of justice because she's no "No One." And never mind that a major POV character is now a mindless member of a death cult, which I would argue is an evil cult simply by definition. That's going to suck if they go that way.quote:
Problem with Fight Club theory is it is just completely out of character with the rest of the novels. We have seen psychosis in this world and none of it has manifested in that way.
It's not psychosis......and it's completely foreign to 99.9% of the population so I wouldn't say it is out of character with the rest of the novels - I mean it is, but it is supposed to be. Faceless Men are extremely rare and their training is unique.
It started when Arya drank the water or whatever in the house of black and white. That probably was part of manifesting this waif persona in her mind. And she drank it again when she regained her sight.
There is very little difference between that and killing a character and/or making them a white walker. I personally would have no interest in following that character anymore, becomes she would cease being the character we cared about. She would be an interchangeabe cog in the FM order.
There is no Jaquen, there is no waif. Those are just different physical manifestations of automated cult members. The "Jaquen" we met in the beginning could be dead and gone now. You really think anybody wants to see Arya become that? I mean, at that point, anything she does could just as easily be the "no one" who is currently the waif, or Jaquen. It won't hold up as a storytelling device (in my humble opinion).
quote:I just think a trick like that would feel way out of place with the rest of the story, which has been fairy straight forward, for the most part. Sometimes people misunderstand situations or their perspectives cause them to see things different than others, but for the most part all the narration has been honest. When somebody is crazy, it's evident that they are crazy. Just can't see them doing it here, and I personally would think it was a cheap trick if they did do that.quote:
Problem with Fight Club theory is it is just completely out of character with the rest of the novels. We have seen psychosis in this world and none of it has manifested in that way.
It's not psychosis......and it's completely foreign to 99.9% of the population so I wouldn't say it is out of character with the rest of the novels - I mean it is, but it is supposed to be. Faceless Men are extremely rare and their training is unique.
It started when Arya drank the water or whatever in the house of black and white. That probably was part of manifesting this waif persona in her mind. And she drank it again when she regained her sight.
quote:no fairies. just Children of the Forest.quote:
I just think a trick like that would feel way out of place with the rest of the story, which has been fairy straight forward, for the most part. Sometimes people misunderstand situations or their perspectives cause them to see things different than others, but for the most part all the narration has been honest. When somebody is crazy, it's evident that they are crazy. Just can't see them doing it here, and I personally would think it was a cheap trick if they did do that.
quote:Oops.quote:no fairies. just Children of the Forest.quote:
I just think a trick like that would feel way out of place with the rest of the story, which has been fairy straight forward, for the most part. Sometimes people misunderstand situations or their perspectives cause them to see things different than others, but for the most part all the narration has been honest. When somebody is crazy, it's evident that they are crazy. Just can't see them doing it here, and I personally would think it was a cheap trick if they did do that.
Could Hodor's events be seen as out of place? We had no idea that messing with events in the past was a possibility in this show until that happened.
quote:Not in my opinion, since the mystery behind "Hodor" was set-up from book one, and the story has involved magic from day one.
Could Hodor's events be seen as out of place? We had no idea that messing with events in the past was a possibility in this show until that happened.
quote:yes, as there was no reason to think that the past could be affected.
Could Hodor's events be seen as out of place? We had no idea that messing with events in the past was a possibility in this show until that happened.
Viewed, sure; affected, no.
quote:Well, even that was foreshadowed a little by having him call out to Ned at the Tower of Joy and having Ned turn and look like he heard something.quote:yes, as there was no reason to think that the past could be affected.
Could Hodor's events be seen as out of place? We had no idea that messing with events in the past was a possibility in this show until that happened.
Viewed, sure; affected, no.
But y'all are kind of twisting my point. I'm not saying that there are no surprising twists or anything like that, what I'm saying is that to have Arya be the Waif would require a change in the narrative style we have seen in the books so far.
It's been a while since I've read them, but if I'm not mistaken, the books are written from a third person limited point of view, varying the POV from chapter to chapter. The plot devise you guys are discussing is called an "Unreliable narrator". The unreliable narrator is usually done from a first person point of view. For example, "Fight Club" is written in first person POV.
To pull this off within this book, if I remember correctly, you would have to have a unreliable third person limited narrator, which means that you could no longer trust anything you are told in the book, which is a big change from just not being able to trust the various character's own thoughts. I just don't think it would fit with the literary style of the novels and it would feel very out of place for the narrative style of the first five books.
quote:quote:yes, as there was no reason to think that the past could be affected.
Could Hodor's events be seen as out of place? We had no idea that messing with events in the past was a possibility in this show until that happened.
Viewed, sure; affected, no.
Except for the scene earlier in the season with young Ned hearing Bran. It was basically one step in that direction, so wasn't too far fetched to assume that his powers were even stronger.
quote:and how do you know this wasn't setup from day one the same way.quote:Not in my opinion, since the mystery behind "Hodor" was set-up from book one, and the story has involved magic from day one.
Could Hodor's events be seen as out of place? We had no idea that messing with events in the past was a possibility in this show until that happened.
same story, same magic is possible, same literary convenience of telling/showing you only what they want you to know.
only real difference is Hodor was just there all along but not showing relevant story and it was all revealed beginning to end in one episode basically. Arya's is just a much longer and more involved story arc.
Personally I will feel cheated if she dies or if she just abandons this narrative of becoming no one - I will then have been cheated by watching 40 hours of stuff that didn't matter for squat.
Yes you could say that, technically, about Robb or Stannis or any number of things - except they all did play a part in a much larger story and affected those around them. Arya is off on her own, it really has zero affect on any of the overall story if she was just off on her own and then dies...or simply comes back as the same person. Major time waste.
At this point she has to become no one....and the story as presented right now is leading you to believe she is abandoning becoming no one. But I'll remind you this story also had us believe:
Jon was dead
Jon is a ******* only, no R+L=J which at this point HAS to be true
hid the red wedding and joffrey plots until they wanted us to know
gave no forewarning of major plot points like Varys helping Tyrion escape
the hound was dead
quote:
Could Hodor's events be seen as out of place? We had no idea that messing with events in the past was a possibility in this show until that happened.
Is altering the past (in a closed time loop type of way) really out of place in a show with dragons, ice zombies and magic (including bringing people back to life)?
I agree, if Arya dies right now her story arc is kind of pointless.
It would kind of be like if Danny was killed before she had a chance to sail to Westeros. Why did we watch all that if it wasn't amounting to anything?
It would kind of be like if Danny was killed before she had a chance to sail to Westeros. Why did we watch all that if it wasn't amounting to anything?
quote:quote:Well, even that was foreshadowed a little by having him call out to Ned at the Tower of Joy and having Ned turn and look like he heard something.quote:yes, as there was no reason to think that the past could be affected.
Could Hodor's events be seen as out of place? We had no idea that messing with events in the past was a possibility in this show until that happened.
Viewed, sure; affected, no.
But y'all are kind of twisting my point. I'm not saying that there are no surprising twists or anything like that, what I'm saying is that to have Arya be the Waif would require a change in the narrative style we have seen in the books so far.
It's been a while since I've read them, but if I'm not mistaken, the books are written from a third person limited point of view, varying the POV from chapter to chapter. The plot devise you guys are discussing is called an "Unreliable narrator". The unreliable narrator is usually done from a first person point of view. For example, "Fight Club" is written in first person POV.
To pull this off within this book, if I remember correctly, you would have to have a unreliable third person limited narrator, which means that you could no longer trust anything you are told in the book, which is a big change from just not being able to trust the various character's own thoughts. I just don't think it would fit with the literary style of the novels and it would feel very out of place for the narrative style of the first five books.
If R+L=J is true than ALL of Ned chapters are misleading intentionally as well. Ned could have told us the viewer about R+L=J without changing anything in the plot development. It's intentionally misleading - and at this point pretty much HAS to be true.
As for Arya specifically it would be misleading if there were Jaqen or Waif perspective chapters but there are not.
I think you are nitpicking a literary device - in a story full of intentionally misleading narratives and one also full of magic.
Others may not, but I certainly agree with you. It COULD happen, but it would be quite different than how the rest of the book is approached. Probably more along the lines of group-think being more creative than a single person.
GRRM is probably reading reddit right now thinking "holy crap that's an awesome idea! Can do write that in now?"
GRRM is probably reading reddit right now thinking "holy crap that's an awesome idea! Can do write that in now?"
From Reddit:
The kindly man is someone.
The waif is someone.
No one is no one.
A sweet girl has shown mercy.
A debt must be paid.
One life shall be taken.
Which life matters not.
A life is a life.
It is all the same to the Many-Faced God.
A smart girl knows she cannot beat the waif in single combat.
A clever girl must deceive the waif.
A girl must play the game.
A girl knows an actress.
An actress knows the art of lying.
A lost girl has trained in the art of lying for two years.
An actress has given a sweet girl what she needs.
A girl has all the rest.
"You have very expressive eyes, wonderful eyebrows. Do you like pretending to be other people?"
A hunted girl must attract the attention of someone.
A hunted girl must stand openly where escape is easy.
The waif is someone.
The waif has desires.
An experienced girl knows the waif will want her to suffer.
A clever girl understands where the waif will want to stab her.
A brave girl must take a risk.
A lying girl must become a wounded girl.
A lying girl must act wounded when no one is watching.
For no one is watching.
A wounded girl must lead the waif into the darkness.
A girl has trained in complete darkness before.
The waif has not.
The waif is unprepared.
The waif has been tricked by a girl.
The waif believes she is after a wounded girl.
A girl is not a wounded girl.
A girl will deliver a life to the Many-Faced God.
A life is a life and the debt is paid.
A girl is not no one.
A girl will never be no one.
A girl is Arya Stark
and Arya Stark has many faces.
The kindly man is someone.
The waif is someone.
No one is no one.
A sweet girl has shown mercy.
A debt must be paid.
One life shall be taken.
Which life matters not.
A life is a life.
It is all the same to the Many-Faced God.
A smart girl knows she cannot beat the waif in single combat.
A clever girl must deceive the waif.
A girl must play the game.
A girl knows an actress.
An actress knows the art of lying.
A lost girl has trained in the art of lying for two years.
An actress has given a sweet girl what she needs.
A girl has all the rest.
"You have very expressive eyes, wonderful eyebrows. Do you like pretending to be other people?"
A hunted girl must attract the attention of someone.
A hunted girl must stand openly where escape is easy.
The waif is someone.
The waif has desires.
An experienced girl knows the waif will want her to suffer.
A clever girl understands where the waif will want to stab her.
A brave girl must take a risk.
A lying girl must become a wounded girl.
A lying girl must act wounded when no one is watching.
For no one is watching.
A wounded girl must lead the waif into the darkness.
A girl has trained in complete darkness before.
The waif has not.
The waif is unprepared.
The waif has been tricked by a girl.
The waif believes she is after a wounded girl.
A girl is not a wounded girl.
A girl will deliver a life to the Many-Faced God.
A life is a life and the debt is paid.
A girl is not no one.
A girl will never be no one.
A girl is Arya Stark
and Arya Stark has many faces.
That's really cool, but I have no ****ing clue what it means.
Arya is tricking the waif into thinking she's more wounded than she really is. Destroying to draw the waif into the darkness where her experience will help defeat the waif. The actress Arya saved may ha e given her some stage props to help make her wound look worse than it is.
Sorry, no I got it, I just meant where did it come from? Is this just fan art?
It just seems so weird that Arya would be hiding out at the end of the previous episode but then is suddenly strolling around casually buying first class canon accommodations. I'd like to think Arya was able to get someone else to impersonate her to buy the cabin, trick the Waif into killing that Arya, then safely take the voyage herself. The only problem is that to have Aryas face wouldn't Arya have had to die first?
Maybe her hiding out at the end of the episode happened after the fight with the waif? So Arya's story this week was a rewind of sorts? Showing us what happens leading up to why she's hiding out?
Kind of how some breaking bad episodes showed you a scene then went into the story of how things went down to get there?
Kind of how some breaking bad episodes showed you a scene then went into the story of how things went down to get there?
quote:Someone mentioned tricking the fake Sansa into setting sail as her. I could see how the fake Sansa would act that way since she would be stoked about leaving town as someone else and apparently has plenty of money to be throwing around. Though that falls apart when you consider her headbutt and then roll off the bridge.
It just seems so weird that Arya would be hiding out at the end of the previous episode but then is suddenly strolling around casually buying first class canon accommodations. I'd like to think Arya was able to get someone else to impersonate her to buy the cabin, trick the Waif into killing that Arya, then safely take the voyage herself. The only problem is that to have Aryas face wouldn't Arya have had to die first?
Maybe Arya switched the Waif's dagger with a fake collapsible dagger and, thus, isn't actually injured?
quote:The other problem is that is a **** rotten thing to do and Arya hasn't shown herself to be a **** rotten person, quiet the opposite, actually.
It just seems so weird that Arya would be hiding out at the end of the previous episode but then is suddenly strolling around casually buying first class canon accommodations. I'd like to think Arya was able to get someone else to impersonate her to buy the cabin, trick the Waif into killing that Arya, then safely take the voyage herself. The only problem is that to have Aryas face wouldn't Arya have had to die first?
quote:Much more plausible than the Fight Club theory.
From Reddit:
The kindly man is someone.
The waif is someone.
No one is no one.
A sweet girl has shown mercy.
A debt must be paid.
One life shall be taken.
Which life matters not.
A life is a life.
It is all the same to the Many-Faced God.
A smart girl knows she cannot beat the waif in single combat.
A clever girl must deceive the waif.
A girl must play the game.
A girl knows an actress.
An actress knows the art of lying.
A lost girl has trained in the art of lying for two years.
An actress has given a sweet girl what she needs.
A girl has all the rest.
"You have very expressive eyes, wonderful eyebrows. Do you like pretending to be other people?"
A hunted girl must attract the attention of someone.
A hunted girl must stand openly where escape is easy.
The waif is someone.
The waif has desires.
An experienced girl knows the waif will want her to suffer.
A clever girl understands where the waif will want to stab her.
A brave girl must take a risk.
A lying girl must become a wounded girl.
A lying girl must act wounded when no one is watching.
For no one is watching.
A wounded girl must lead the waif into the darkness.
A girl has trained in complete darkness before.
The waif has not.
The waif is unprepared.
The waif has been tricked by a girl.
The waif believes she is after a wounded girl.
A girl is not a wounded girl.
A girl will deliver a life to the Many-Faced God.
A life is a life and the debt is paid.
A girl is not no one.
A girl will never be no one.
A girl is Arya Stark
and Arya Stark has many faces.
quote:No, they're not misleading in the same way. They're misleading only because that is what the characters believe to be true, not because the narrator has deceived us.quote:quote:Well, even that was foreshadowed a little by having him call out to Ned at the Tower of Joy and having Ned turn and look like he heard something.quote:yes, as there was no reason to think that the past could be affected.
Could Hodor's events be seen as out of place? We had no idea that messing with events in the past was a possibility in this show until that happened.
Viewed, sure; affected, no.
But y'all are kind of twisting my point. I'm not saying that there are no surprising twists or anything like that, what I'm saying is that to have Arya be the Waif would require a change in the narrative style we have seen in the books so far.
It's been a while since I've read them, but if I'm not mistaken, the books are written from a third person limited point of view, varying the POV from chapter to chapter. The plot devise you guys are discussing is called an "Unreliable narrator". The unreliable narrator is usually done from a first person point of view. For example, "Fight Club" is written in first person POV.
To pull this off within this book, if I remember correctly, you would have to have a unreliable third person limited narrator, which means that you could no longer trust anything you are told in the book, which is a big change from just not being able to trust the various character's own thoughts. I just don't think it would fit with the literary style of the novels and it would feel very out of place for the narrative style of the first five books.
If R+L=J is true than ALL of Ned chapters are misleading intentionally as well. Ned could have told us the viewer about R+L=J without changing anything in the plot development. It's intentionally misleading - and at this point pretty much HAS to be true.
As for Arya specifically it would be misleading if there were Jaqen or Waif perspective chapters but there are not.
I think you are nitpicking a literary device - in a story full of intentionally misleading narratives and one also full of magic.
I'm doing a bad job of explaining this, so let me give an example using the Tower of Joy: A similar twist in that scenario would be in Ned's dream he walks in to the Tower of Joy and the scene is described as him seeing his sister lying in the bed with a sword through her belly and a dead baby girl in her hands. Then, you come to find out R+L=J and what was described was really just Ned being crazy and his mind completely altering reality.
Another example: Dany really died in the fire with Drago and everything you've read up to this point is just the dreams of Jorah, who was bonked on the head by a pissed off Dothraki after Dany's death and has been laying in a coma for several months.
Or Hodor really got kicked in the head by a donkey several years ago, but Bran was magically manipulated during that sequence by the Night King to imagine that he took control of Hodor and caused him to lose his mind all those years ago and blame himself for it.
Those would all be examples of where we are shown one thing and told that it is reality and then later find out it is a lie. In most of the cases, when the character was having a "vision" or something similar, it has been made extremely obvious. I just don't see Martin or the show writers completely pivoting on us this late in the game.
quote:quote:No, they're not misleading in the same way. They're misleading only because that is what the characters believe to be true, not because the narrator has deceived us.quote:quote:Well, even that was foreshadowed a little by having him call out to Ned at the Tower of Joy and having Ned turn and look like he heard something.quote:yes, as there was no reason to think that the past could be affected.
Could Hodor's events be seen as out of place? We had no idea that messing with events in the past was a possibility in this show until that happened.
Viewed, sure; affected, no.
But y'all are kind of twisting my point. I'm not saying that there are no surprising twists or anything like that, what I'm saying is that to have Arya be the Waif would require a change in the narrative style we have seen in the books so far.
It's been a while since I've read them, but if I'm not mistaken, the books are written from a third person limited point of view, varying the POV from chapter to chapter. The plot devise you guys are discussing is called an "Unreliable narrator". The unreliable narrator is usually done from a first person point of view. For example, "Fight Club" is written in first person POV.
To pull this off within this book, if I remember correctly, you would have to have a unreliable third person limited narrator, which means that you could no longer trust anything you are told in the book, which is a big change from just not being able to trust the various character's own thoughts. I just don't think it would fit with the literary style of the novels and it would feel very out of place for the narrative style of the first five books.
If R+L=J is true than ALL of Ned chapters are misleading intentionally as well. Ned could have told us the viewer about R+L=J without changing anything in the plot development. It's intentionally misleading - and at this point pretty much HAS to be true.
As for Arya specifically it would be misleading if there were Jaqen or Waif perspective chapters but there are not.
I think you are nitpicking a literary device - in a story full of intentionally misleading narratives and one also full of magic.
I'm doing a bad job of explaining this, so let me give an example using the Tower of Joy: A similar twist in that scenario would be in Ned's dream he walks in to the Tower of Joy and the scene is described as him seeing his sister lying in the bed with a sword through her belly and a dead baby girl in her hands. Then, you come to find out R+L=J and what was described was really just Ned being crazy and his mind completely altering reality.
Another example: Dany really died in the fire with Drago and everything you've read up to this point is just the dreams of Jorah, who was bonked on the head by a pissed off Dothraki after Dany's death and has been laying in a coma for several months.
Or Hodor really got kicked in the head by a donkey several years ago, but Bran was magically manipulated during that sequence by the Night King to imagine that he took control of Hodor and caused him to lose his mind all those years ago and blame himself for it.
Those would all be examples of where we are shown one thing and told that it is reality and then later find out it is a lie. In most of the cases, when the character was having a "vision" or something similar, it has been made extremely obvious. I just don't see Martin or the show writers completely pivoting on us this late in the game.
Yes I get what you are saying - but IF this is true and its only a theory still - we are not talking about Arya's entire perspective and view of things being a lie. We are talking about only her training which is basically 10 minutes or so of time per episode for the last 15 episodes or so.
And more importantly - if having that alter ego is imperative or central to the training of becoming a faceless man then it makes sense even in retrospect. It is not ripping you off because you didn't know. And if it is important for Arya to believe it then it is important for us as viewers to believe it as well.
The alternative view would be to watch Arya doing some really stupid stuff with a make believe person who we don't see. It would not have the same impact to us.
The examples you gave would be ridiculous. I just disagree that this one would be - IF the theory is true. Its imperative to the story if it is true and plays better if we the viewers also believe it.
It is imperative because part of being a faceless man is adopting other personalities. That would be exactly what she had been doing in a way. It is also imperative potentially because of all the talk about becoming no one which implies killing off Arya (or her persona).
We aren't just talking about a guy waking up taking a shower and revealing to the viewers that the entire previous season was a dream.
What's funny is that every time i read a new/good theory.... I drink the koolaid!
Well done GOT...well done!
Well done GOT...well done!
Yea, but couldn't that also just be done by Arya going to the House of Black & White and then dying and having her face enter the hall of faces? If Jaqen and the Waif use her face now, wouldn't that be the same as ARYA using her own face but fully making the transition to "no one"? If she's truly no one then she's no longer the character of Arya so who cares. If she fights it off and doesn't become "no one" then she's back to being Arya; but what's the value in revealing she was fighting herself the whole time? The whole Fight Club reveal was based around Edward Norton wanting to become Tyler Durden. The reveal wouldn't be quite the same if he just went back to his original self.
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