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TCTTS said:

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Would watch that in a heartbeat.

And the cantina/show itself is called... "Shots First."

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This is such a good idea. Think of the cameos. How awesome would it be if you could get Ted Danson and Woody to be regulars on it. Then replicate the regular Cheers barflys with aliens.

sh** you beat me to it

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Mark Hamill is a global treasure.

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FIFY

"First movie in the series."

Slip-up? Reading too much into this?

Could be just based off earlier expectations of more films? Interesting catch though.

YouBet said:

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Render said:

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TCTT said:

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We have NO CLUE what's coming next. Who's to say there aren't myriad movie-worthy stories left in this universe? In fact, it seems to me they've barely scratched the surface in terms of the potential and vast history to draw from. What if the Benioff & Weiss trilogy - in movie form - turns out to be better than even the OT trilogy? But because you're tired of this latest iteration of Skywalker movies, they should just stop altogether? That seems short sided to me.

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SW may seem like it has a vast sea potential, but it doesn't.

The EU tried to expand the universe, and 99% of it sucked. Partly because of poor writing and partly because it didn't "feel" like SW, but rather like "generic space adventure". And the stuff that did work was directly tied to the OT, in the use of OT aesthetics and characters, and/or in the use of its plot devices (good vs evil, super weapons, lightsaber duels, etc). It's just the same things rearranged.

The crux is that SW is reliant on a very specific era of its history to capture its unique feeling.
In that way, SW is like LOTR and GOT. It's an epic-type of story. And no one does sequels to epics, because it doesn't work.

Did Tolkien write a sequel to LOTR? Nope.
Does Martin have a sequel series planned for GOT? Nope.
And why not? Because it doesn't work.
(Put another way, it'd be like trying to do an extended universe for Back To The Future.)

Meanwhile, Star Trek is an example of a true utilitarian series. You can plug an infinite amount of different stories into that series and it'll work.

SW has already achieved its full potential. Let something else have a chance to shine.

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LOTR was the sequel.

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Not to mention those two writers are notorious for adding all sorts of back story.

And how can Martin plan a sequel if he can't even finish the original series.

I think my defending of Rian Johnson as a person likely got confused and muddled with me defending the movie itself. And while I did really enjoy a handful of sequences upon walking out of the theater - but didn't like the movie as a whole - I've soured on even some of those sequences since then, and even Johnson himself just a bit as well (though I still think he's a well-meaning director - and I still love how Snoke was killed and basically that entire sequence, despite the fact that the fight choreography has been proven to be pretty terrible upon further YouTuber analyzation).

Buried months back in this thread, I wrote a pretty extensive reasoning as to why, exactly, I think this movie is so bad, and it had a lot to do with how its plot and themes are fundamentally based in inaction. From Luke's whole thing being about not joining the fight to Holdo and Leia's whole thing being about stalling (not to mention the entire Canto Bight subplot, which was just as bad as anything in the prequels, with an extra level of way-too-on-the-nose preachy-ness). In that sense, actually, part of what makes TLJ so hard to peg sometimes is that "bad" might be the wrong word. You can tell that Johnson put a TON of thought and care into writing and making this movie, and it's hard to fault him for that. The story he chose to tell, for the most part, is well told. I just think he told the *wrong* story as opposed to a *bad* story, as pretentious as that might sound. For me, it all comes down to Johnson saying that his primary goal was to "subvert expectations" - which is fine when it's organic to the plot and to the characters - but in the case of TLJ, his goal of subverting expectations came at the expense of the storytelling, IMO. And with that mindset going in, he ultimately painted the franchise into a corner, one which we're all seemingly hoping Abrams can miraculously rescue the franchise from.

That, and as I mentioned recently in this thread, the "cherry" on top is that I think Johnson's humor is straight up terrible. Not Michael-Bay-terrible, but just genuinely unfunny and out of place.

All that said, I am actually looking forward to the rewatch in October, and will try to go into with an open mind.

I remember thinking it was good the second time I saw it, but it is rarely watched in my house. From a rewatchability standpoint, it is as low as Attack of the Clones.

It also throws a huge wrench in the saga unfortunately, and that's an issue.

Saul Goodman said:

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I'm in the camp that likes TLJ. Is it perfect like ESB? Of course not. I don't think Finn was handled well, and the Canto Bight sequence was poorly executed. But man does it do a ton really well.

I think it all depends on whether you're on board with what RJ was going for or not. I was/am, so that's the lens from which I analyze the movie. Anybody can talk themselves into reasons why the movie "sucks", just as I can for reasons it's a good movie. The Luke storyline is a prime example - I love what RJ did and can describe all the ways why it works. Somebody on the other end of the spectrum can find ways for why it doesn't.

What I refuse to acknowledge is when people's hate for the movie goes so overboard that all reason is thrown out. For instance, you cannot objectively say (IMO ) that TLJ is a worse movie than Episode 1 or 2. You may not like the story decisions made, but the dialogue, cinematography, direction, performances are light years better than what Lucas put on screen.

Critics aren't all-knowing or infallible, but TLJ had a ridiculous consensus of critical praise. It obviously did some things well.

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I won't try to rehash everything that was done to death many moons ago but I agree wholeheartedly with Saul here.

I loved the way RJ handled Luke. I thought it was great to show him as a truly fallible person who has given up because of his failures, but by the end he has been redeemed based on Rey's pushing him.

I loved that the story told was that these off-the-cuff plans to win sometimes fail spectacularly. The good guys don't always win the day.

Some of Canto Bight is the only thing I can point to that I didn't like.

And now I'm rehashing....sorry. My $.02.

FTACO97 said:

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That's great, but that's Mark Hamill's opinion on Luke. IMHO, George Lucas had already set a precedent that Jedis DO give up. Look at Obi Wan and Yoda. Were they still fighting the good fight? No.

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This is accurate. But, OB1 was watching over Luke, and Yoda was more in hiding. Neither had cut themselves off from the force like Luke did... it felt different with how they did it with Luke...

veryfuller said:

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Rey - her complete misconception of her idol and her past meaning nothing
Poe - complete and utter failure even though he thought he was doing everything right
Finn - coming to feel a sense of home only to lose it
Kylo - literally killing the past (or letting it die) and still not finding absolution

The character work that happened in TLJ is pretty amazing when you think of where everyone was at the beginning of the movie.

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but nothing happened with the characters, they didn't evolve or change that much.

Rey - found the resistance at the end of TFA. Didn't get anywhere really with Luke and found the resistance again at the end of TLJ. Nothing really is resolved with her except her powers are magically growing.
Poe - Failed multiple times. He's the only one that grew when he decided to let Luke fight alone.
Finn - Stuck around the resistance for Rey at the end of TFA. Stuck around the resistance for Rose at the end of TLJ.
Kylo - Still conflicted and angry.

That being said, I didn't hate TLJ and I do think it will age well after TROS.

I'm very interested how they close out Kylo's arc. He has the chance to be the most interesting character in the films, imo.

FTACO97 said:

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That's great, but that's Mark Hamill's opinion on Luke. IMHO, George Lucas had already set a precedent that Jedis DO give up. Look at Obi Wan and Yoda. Were they still fighting the good fight? No.

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What did Obi-Wan do as soon as Luke was all in? I also disagree that Yoda gave up the way Luke did in TLJ. Yoda was still watching Luke, and keeping tabs on things in the galaxy. He even appeared to Ezra to help him on his way to being a Jedi (I understand if some don't want to use tv shows). Luke was perfectly fine letting the galaxy burn.

Also, we don't really know if Kenobi is doing nothing... but, I hope we find out!

Saul Goodman said:

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I'm in the camp that likes TLJ. Is it perfect like ESB? Of course not. I don't think Finn was handled well, and the Canto Bight sequence was poorly executed. But man does it do a ton really well.

I think it all depends on whether you're on board with what RJ was going for or not. I was/am, so that's the lens from which I analyze the movie. Anybody can talk themselves into reasons why the movie "sucks", just as I can for reasons it's a good movie. The Luke storyline is a prime example - I love what RJ did and can describe all the ways why it works. Somebody on the other end of the spectrum can find ways for why it doesn't.

What I refuse to acknowledge is when people's hate for the movie goes so overboard that all reason is thrown out. For instance, you cannot objectively say (IMO wink wink ) that TLJ is a worse movie than Episode 1 or 2. You may not like the story decisions made, but the dialogue, cinematography, direction, performances are light years better than what Lucas put on screen.

Critics aren't all-knowing or infallible, but TLJ had a ridiculous consensus of critical praise. It obviously did some things well.

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Pretty much this. Actually can't wait for the TLJ rewatch. It's a fascinating/frustrating, mixed bag of a film that fails as much as it succeeds, but when it does work. It's borderline brilliant.

The best thing about TLJ was the interaction between Rey and Kylo, particularly those scenes where they saw each other and conversed despite not being in the same room, or even planet. Everything else was poorly done or just sucked.

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And TCTTS, I don't think Rian's main goal was to subvert expectations. It was definitely part of it, but I read another interview with him where he was trying to be surprising while also putting the characters through the worst thing possible for each.

Rey - her complete misconception of her idol and her past meaning nothing
Poe - complete and utter failure even though he thought he was doing everything right
Finn - coming to feel a sense of home only to lose it
Kylo - literally killing the past (or letting it die) and still not finding absolution

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but nothing happened with the characters, they didn't evolve or change that much.

Rey - found the resistance at the end of TFA. Didn't get anywhere really with Luke and found the resistance again at the end of TLJ. Nothing really is resolved with her except her powers are magically growing.
Poe - Failed multiple times. He's the only one that grew when he decided to let Luke fight alone.
Finn - Stuck around the resistance for Rey at the end of TFA. Stuck around the resistance for Rose at the end of TLJ.
Kylo - Still conflicted and angry.

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Ah I disagree. They all may have ended the film in similar places or groups of people, but their motivations and goals have fundamentally changed.

Rey - no longer searching for identity / meaning to guide her -- which will make her interesting in TROS
Poe - understands he doesn't know everything and that leadership comes with real stakes
Finn - has a connection to the resistance. remember he was trying to leave at the beginning of the film when he woke up and now he is apart of the fight
Kylo - yes he is still conflicted, but he no longer has anything or anyone to blame it on but himself. he has killed his actually father and then his father figure. And, he essentially has taken over the galaxy.

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Rey - I do agree that she had an arc in TLJ insomuch as she's no longer searching for identity/meaning to guide her. I've always loved that. My problem is that her character development has never been tied to her skill development. She could lift pebbles at the beginning of TLJ, but realizing her past doesn't matter then suddenly gives her the ability to lift dozens of boulders by the end? Yes, there's an "arc" there, I guess, but why and how do those things relate? Why do those two things correspond to each other? It just never felt like Rey learned anything from her training with Luke, and his training was pretty bland/forgettable to begin with. What she did learn felt incremental, and not at all tied to her skill level. Her arc makes sense, but because she wasn't really a crucial part of the climax, it never really felt like it truly landed, which definitely hindered the movie overall for me.

Finn - Finn's arc is the one that threw me for the biggest loop and the only one I actively disagreed with. After he woke up at the beginning of the movie, the second he started to make yet another escape, I immediately remember thinking, "Wait, we're doing this AGAIN?" By the end of TFA, to me, it totally felt like he had found his family in the Resistance. He belonged, had purpose, etc. But the beginning of TLJ felt like we were doing that all over again, only to come to the exact same conclusion as the last go around. Throw into the mix Rose, Canto Bight, and the ridiculous coincidence of going there to find an expert coder - only to get thrown in jail with another expert coder - and I truly despised this entire subplot/"arc."

Poe - In a vacuum, his arc felt right, and like it was exactly what he needed. But man, I hated Holdo so much. To have a strict, pink-haired hippie yoga mom be the one to do the challenging in just that way felt so incredibly preachy and tone deaf. I know Johnson lives in the Los Feliz/Silverlake area - which is like the Brooklyn of LA - and Holdo comes across like so many of the moms in that area. Maybe I'm in too deep, or stereotyping too much, but I could just feel a very specific kind of person in that area of town coming to life through her character, and it really rubbed me the wrong way. Again, Poe needed to hear what he heard. I agree 100%. But to have THAT character doing the lecturing almost felt icky to me.

Kylo - I'm pretty good with where he's at (character arc wise, not morally or psychologically, obviously), and enjoyed his arc for the most part in TLJ. Granted, I thought what we were shown of his backstory with Luke was super lame, but I liked how his interactions with Rey progressed and I did find myself agreeing with his "Kill the past" mentality. Just not quite that literally.

Overall, I think a lot of this underlines what I mean by "bad" vs. "wrong." Save for Finn, I think Johnson correctly identified what needed to be challenged with each character. But for most of them, I just think he simply chose the "wrong" ways to execute those challenges. Instead of feeling like a proper sequel, TLJ simultaneously felt like The Force Awakens 1.5, while parts of it also felt like the third movie in a trilogy. It just constantly felt... off. Like it's not comfortable in its own skin or something. Poe's and Finn's stories, in particular, felt like they belonged in those movie-related comics set before the movie takes place. Neither of their stories felt movie-worthy, if that makes sense. Combine all that with the whole "inaction" theme I mentioned earlier, and while I can totally appreciate what Johnson was attempting, and understood where he was coming from, I just thought the execution missed the mark more often than not.