when you run on a treadmill, do you feel wind in your face? no you dont. because there isnt any created by you running on a treadmill. same thing applies to the plane. regardless of wheels or forward thrust, the plane doesnt move from its relative position. there is no lift created because the plane itself doesnt move from its original position.

OMFG. Chopperdave, please read any of the 24 pages before this one. I'm sure that in any of these 24 pages, your argument has already been refuted.

You think you're the first person to think of that? Go apply the logic from the previous hundreds of posts.

I think I understand the thrust of your argument, although I'm not exactly sure what specific point you're trying to convey.

as another poster said earlier: Using that treadmill analogy, stand on a skate board on the treadmill. There is very little force moving you backwards. Now tie a rope to the front of the treadmill and pull yourself forward. That is the same as the engines giving forward thrust, which will provide enough wind for lift.

BTW: I'll help you out thinking about it. If you're running on a treadmill, and I come up behind you and shove you as hard as I can, you go forward. My shove is the push of the engines, and it has NOTHING to do with what your legs are doing.

I'll go ahead and pimp myself and say the skateboard/rope thing was me. On page 2. Please do a LITTLE bit of reading?

If you came up behind me as I was working out, I think hypothetical plane questions would be the least of my worries.

no way, im not reading through 2435978495837454 pages. plus, you guys are still arguing over it, so im sure you are pretty well versed. yes, if you pull yourself forward on a treadmill using a rope, you feel wind. the plane however, is not "pulling on a rope" it too is stationary, is it not? the plane isnt in the air, it is on the ground, therefore the wheels are relevant. the thrust propels the plane forward, but before it takes off into the air, in order to take off, it must use its wheels. the wheels cannot be negated because it is the only contact with the ground, or in this case the conveyor belt.

as i understood it, the plane remains in the same position because there is a conveyor belt under it running at the same speed as the aircraft in the opposite direction. the thrust allows the plane to stay in the same place on the conveyor belt, however, because there is no actual change in position, there is no airflow under or over the wings, therefore there is no lift and the plane cannot take off.

The only way I will even begin to consider your argument is if you go back and read all 800-something earlier posts and still think the same way.

Why would I restate my argument for the 50th time when I've already done the writing? How about you not be lazy and look for yourself?

BTW: if I did even consider your argument, it would still be wrong. I'm sorry - that's just the way it is. This thread contains several diagrams and visualization tools which PROVE why the plane will take off.

For the most part, this thread is ressurrected for hilarity purposes, and every time it is, someone else jumps on the "NO" bandwagon and has to have it explained to them. That's the only reason there's still discussion on this topic.

The problem with the rope pulling analogies is that it introduces a new definition to the problem that is not in the original problem.

By pulling on the rope, you are defining a change in distance. You are essentially shortening the rope which defines a change in distance over time which defines a speed relative to an outside point. This is not in the original problem The question wasn't whether or not the plane could be pulled off the conveyor by an outside force, but whether or not the plane would take off.

The rope is an incorrect analogy.

ok, strap an engine to your ass on a treadmill. i bet you go forward

Exactly who is holding the aforementioned rope?

it's been explained enough times earlier in the thread that i shouldn't have to justify my answer

so you think it won't take off?

exactly

well, MKF is saying it has been explained several times that it will take off. you are saying it has been explained several times that it won't. which is it?

I'm very surprised by you answer blueballs.

quote:

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The answer to the question is in this situation CAN the "sucking" of air either by props or a jet produce enough "Lift: when flowing over the wing.

the answer is in theory is "yes" if you actually got the tread mill to work AND you had a small enough "closed" block of air around the plane.

In practical terms even if you got the tread mill to work lift is produced by " a change in momentum of the air and plane" ( bernoulli's principal is an EFFECT) and you couldn't get enough air momentum change because the plane was not ACTUALLY moving relation to the full air mass around the plane

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it could take off, but only under very specific conditions, as stated above. none of these conditions were stated in the given problem

my dad and i just had a long discussion about it. and hes a corporate pilot. took us 30 mins, but it was finally explained to me. it will.

it seems there are still some people who think it won't take off.

DAMN YOU BADMAN!!!!!!!!!

I am firmly in the "Hell no, it won't take off" camp.

What? I think we made real progress yesterday. I'm just trying to help out those that are still confused *cough* bluefire *cough*.

See! There is still work to be done.

When I make my first billion I will construct the largest conveyor system this planet has ever seen, purchase a jet plan and conduct the experiment that has been discussed in hopes to put this issue at rest....FOREVER! There will be live entertainment and a taco bar at the event so come hungry and ready to party.

I do like tacos!

Are the tacos hard-shelled or soft? What sort of entertainment? I really need more details before I can commit to attending your gala.

Double Deckers!

If you've ever been to a Taco Bar you should that there are options for soft or hard shell tacos (I like both myself).

What's really going to be badass is the variety of meats at this Taco bar: chicken(white or dark), steak, typical ground beef, chopped beef, fish, shrimp (never tried this before, but it has to be good) and who knows what else.

As far as live entertainment, who knows, skies the limit. Maybe they'll be a couple of stripper poles for back door entertainment. I don't know, I don't know if we'll have enough time.

When I make my first billion I will construct the world’s first plane to ever fly by driving its tires.

Any consensus on this?

BTW: The conveyor belt is moot ... the plane takes off.

Hope all had a Merry Christmas.

tacos sound like an excellent idea

Daaaaaaammmmmnnnnnn it. Please staff kill this thread.