https://www.wnd.com/2022/04/cdc-u-k-data-covid-vaccines-also-failing-prevent-deaths/

"From the CDC, she examined data on 30 million adults in California and New York, three-quarters of whom were vaccinated. Nass compared COVID hospitalization and case rates in those who were vaccinated and had no prior COVID illness with adults who were never vaccinated but had recovered from COVID and presumably had natural immunity. The data were collected from June to November 2021, before the Omicron wave appeared.

She found vaccinated Californians and New Yorkers were three times more likely to develop COVID than those who had prior immunity and were unvaccinated.

Further, vaccinated Californians had a higher rate of hospitalizations (severe illness) than those who were unvaccinated but had prior immunity.

In her analysis of the CDC and U.K. data, she listed other conclusions:

• Natural immunity was three times better at preventing cases than vaccination alone, even before omicron.
• Natural immunity was somewhat better at preventing serious illness, measured as hospitalizations, than vaccination alone, even before omicron.
• Boosters (a third shot) reduced the death rate in England of the vaccinated from omicron, but the benefit was starting to drop off by January 2022.
• Overall, England's unvaccinated population had a lower COVID death rate during the omicron wave than the COVID death rate in its doubly vaccinated population.
• The vast majority of COVID deaths occur in those over 70. In this age group, the doubly vaccinated died from COVID at higher rates during omicron than the unvaccinated."

Natural immunity was once again mentioned to be more effective than vaccination. This is not to say the vaccine is not effective in itself, but for certain age group, force vaccination does not make sense. We definitely need to rethink our approaches in handling the COVID issue as a nation.

That source is garbage and even the title is misleading. The inflammatory language here indicates she is more interested in clicks than the truth.

If you want the raw numbers, you can find them here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/latest

Looking at the raw numbers, it looks that the vaccines worked to prevent death and the booster re-ups that protection. It's also apparent that natural immunity is a thing. The vaccine protection wanes as expected but it looks like boosters are outperforming natural immunity, even without a reformulation.

So I do agree that natural immunity is very real, but taking this article or the referenced substacks and her newsletters as a credible source is silly.

Heard a great quote this morning:

Data is free. Wisdom is priceless.

I don't think many on here question the advantage of natural immunity. The marker for the vaccines is and always should be how effective is it as compared to those who do not have natural immunity.

Its the getting natural immunity without getting very sick or dying that was the challenge.

Aston94 said:

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Its the getting natural immunity without getting very sick or dying that was the challenge.

---

Its not much of a challenge at all for most people. The one size fits all plan of make everyone get vaccinated and boosted despite risk profile or natural immunity has been a disgrace. If vaccinations stopped transmission it would have made sense.

The US is approaching 1 million deaths from Covid, almost all of them unvaccinated.

I think I'll take my chances with the shot over natural immunity thank you very much.

The US is approaching 1 million deaths from WITH Covid, almost all of them unvaccinated.

I think I'll take my chances with the shot over natural immunity thank you very much.


FIFY PJ
As me, I'm not an unusually large and unhealthy normal American. I work out and eat right. I've spent my life
outdoors coming in contact with all kinds of germs and built up a hell of an immune system. I had the Covids
once and didn't even know it until I tested positive for antibodies. Not scared, don't need a shot. Enjoy living
scared.

CURDOG90 said:

---

The US is approaching 1 million deaths from WITH Covid, almost all of them unvaccinated.

I think I'll take my chances with the shot over natural immunity thank you very much.


FIFY PJ
As me, I'm not an unusually large and unhealthy normal American. I work out and eat right. I've spent my life
outdoors coming in contact with all kinds of germs and built up a hell of an immune system. I had the Covids
once and didn't even know it until I tested positive for antibodies. Not scared, don't need a shot. Enjoy living
scared.

---

PJ's got the vaccine… so probably not living scared. HTH.

The OP and this post here are straw men.

Being vaccinated is better than no natural immunity.

Natural immunity is arguably just as good as getting vaccinated and there's data to show this.

Being vaccinated does not prevent you from getting the virus but if you're vaxxed and boosted as well and get the virus - it's safe to assume you get boosted immunity from recovering from COVID.

PJs post insinuates that those million died were from unvaccinated individuals who had COVID. But that's not the case which makes the post ridiculous.

I can respect where you got your data from. Unfortunately, that source was called out to be inaccurate many times in the past two years. No one will truly know the real number, as the original data was corrupted, either due to incompetency or malicious intent. Either way, that source can no longer be trusted.

I am not against anyone getting vaccination. That is your personal choice. So should anyone's choice of not getting vaccinated.

The current data no longer support any sort of mandate for vaccination.

GAC06 said:

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Aston94 said:

---

Its the getting natural immunity without getting very sick or dying that was the challenge.

---

Its not much of a challenge at all for most people. The one size fits all plan of make everyone get vaccinated and boosted despite risk profile or natural immunity has been a disgrace. If vaccinations stopped transmission it would have made sense.

---

With all due respect, I don't think that is accurate. It is a challenge for a significant number of people. 1 Million deaths is no joke. Now how many were due to Covid, how many would have died soon anyway, etc. are all valid questions, but to dismiss the virus as "not much of a challenge to most" is not accurate.

I know too many people who worked in hospitals that were overrun with Covid patients to believe it wasn't much of a challenge.

The vaccine worked in limiting the number of deaths, and reducing serious illness. Natural immunity works too, and probably better, but the vaccines did work.

Aston94 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Aston94 said:

---

Its the getting natural immunity without getting very sick or dying that was the challenge.

---

Its not much of a challenge at all for most people. The one size fits all plan of make everyone get vaccinated and boosted despite risk profile or natural immunity has been a disgrace. If vaccinations stopped transmission it would have made sense.

---

With all due respect, I don't think that is accurate. It is a challenge for a significant number of people. 1 Million deaths is no joke. Now how many were due to Covid, how many would have died soon anyway, etc. are all valid questions, but to dismiss the virus as "not much of a challenge to most" is not accurate.

I know too many people who worked in hospitals that were overrun with Covid patients to believe it wasn't much of a challenge.

The vaccine worked in limiting the number of deaths, and reducing serious illness. Natural immunity works too, and probably better, but the vaccines did work.

---

I don't think anyone should take COVID lightly, no diseases should be taken lightly. The common cold could kill given the right conditions. COVID is no different. It's just another disease and should be treated as such. We shouldn't overreact and implement knee-jerk policies as we had for the past two years.

I agree that the vaccine works, to a certain extend, and only beneficial to certain age groups. I actually recommended all my friends and relatives over the age of 50 to get vaccinated. As for younger generations, just stay active and eat healthy, unless of course, you have underlying health issues.

ATM9000 said:

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CURDOG90 said:

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The US is approaching 1 million deaths from WITH Covid, almost all of them unvaccinated.

I think I'll take my chances with the shot over natural immunity thank you very much.


FIFY PJ
As me, I'm not an unusually large and unhealthy normal American. I work out and eat right. I've spent my life
outdoors coming in contact with all kinds of germs and built up a hell of an immune system. I had the Covids
once and didn't even know it until I tested positive for antibodies. Not scared, don't need a shot. Enjoy living
scared.

---

PJ's got the vaccine… so probably not living scared. HTH.

---

Funny, the only people I've come across in real life (also this board) who were scared were vaccinated. And those were the people doing everything they can to blame the vaccine not protecting them, and for keeping them scared (and on their behavior of insanity), on the unvaccinated. Because if everyone stopped being so selfish, we'd be back to normal…

If you want to look at data, the fear to vaccinated ratio is pretty consistently sky high. The fear to unvaccinated ratio remains stuck at zero.

I agree that we shouldn't have shut down. The government overreach was terrible and set a horrible precedent.

I can only speak for myself but WE weren't living scared. It's silly and juvenile to generalize like that.

We went out to eat every day for lunch until everything shut down for a month down here and took two amazing trips to Costa Rica in early 2021. I remember one sad weekday lunch at Saltgrass when our group of 3 were the ONLY customers in the restaurant for the entire hour. Insane.

We signed up for the Phase 3 trial of the Moderna vaccine - I got my first shot way back in August of 2020. (You're welcome). And yes I'm over 50 (and in shape but with preexisting conditions like most Americans) so I'm solidly in the group that benefited most.

And because we were among the first to get the vaccine we were usually the only ones without a mask on inside of places down here when the mask rules loosened.

I have personally known of many people who have died FROM Covid but I live in an area that is one of the worst in the United States for obesity.

I think the science is pretty clear - the vaccine works amazingly well in preventing serious outcomes from Covid. I think it's terrible that those who have the antibodies from previous infections and don't want to take the vaccine are made to felt like outcasts in some cases. The whole politicization of the pandemic has been fascinating and watching the anti-vaxxer movement go from fringe to somewhat mainstream is the thing that concerns me the most.

Aston94 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Aston94 said:

---

Its the getting natural immunity without getting very sick or dying that was the challenge.

---

Its not much of a challenge at all for most people. The one size fits all plan of make everyone get vaccinated and boosted despite risk profile or natural immunity has been a disgrace. If vaccinations stopped transmission it would have made sense.

---

With all due respect, I don't think that is accurate. It is a challenge for a significant number of people. 1 Million deaths is no joke. Now how many were due to Covid, how many would have died soon anyway, etc. are all valid questions, but to dismiss the virus as "not much of a challenge to most" is not accurate.

I know too many people who worked in hospitals that were overrun with Covid patients to believe it wasn't much of a challenge.

The vaccine worked in limiting the number of deaths, and reducing serious illness. Natural immunity works too, and probably better, but the vaccines did work.

---

It is a literal fact that covid is not and was never a threat to a significant majority of the population. That is not even remotely in dispute. You don't have to think it's accurate, it's accurate.

The vaccines were and are great for the minority that are at risk for severe outcomes from covid. Public health policy that tried to force vaccinations on healthy people and people with natural immunity has been an utter disgrace.

GAC06 said:

---

Aston94 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Aston94 said:

---

Its the getting natural immunity without getting very sick or dying that was the challenge.

---

Its not much of a challenge at all for most people. The one size fits all plan of make everyone get vaccinated and boosted despite risk profile or natural immunity has been a disgrace. If vaccinations stopped transmission it would have made sense.

---

With all due respect, I don't think that is accurate. It is a challenge for a significant number of people. 1 Million deaths is no joke. Now how many were due to Covid, how many would have died soon anyway, etc. are all valid questions, but to dismiss the virus as "not much of a challenge to most" is not accurate.

I know too many people who worked in hospitals that were overrun with Covid patients to believe it wasn't much of a challenge.

The vaccine worked in limiting the number of deaths, and reducing serious illness. Natural immunity works too, and probably better, but the vaccines did work.

---

It is a literal fact that covid is not and was never a threat to a significant majority of the population. That is not even remotely in dispute. You don't have to think it's accurate, it's accurate.

The vaccines were and are great for the minority that are at risk for severe outcomes from covid. Public health policy that tried to force vaccinations on healthy people and people with natural immunity has been an utter disgrace.

---

That is correct. Even by CDC's data, 93% of COVID deaths (by or with COVID) were age 50+. People 30 years or younger only constituted 0.89% of the total COVID related deaths.

PJYoung said:

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I agree that we shouldn't have shut down. The government overreach was terrible and set a horrible precedent.

I can only speak for myself but WE weren't living scared. It's silly and juvenile to generalize like that.

We went out to eat every day for lunch until everything shut down for a month down here and took two amazing trips to Costa Rica in early 2021. I remember one sad weekday lunch at Saltgrass when our group of 3 was the ONLY customers in the restaurant for the entire hour. Insane.

We signed up for the Phase 3 trial of the Moderna vaccine - I got my first shot way back in August of 2020. (You're welcome). And yes I'm over 50 (and in shape but with preexisting conditions like most Americans) so I'm solidly in the group that benefited most.

And because we were among the first to get the vaccine we were usually the only ones without a mask on inside of places down here when the mask rules loosened.

I have personally known of many people who have died FROM Covid but I live in an area that is one of the worst in the United States for obesity.

I think the science is pretty clear - the vaccine works amazingly well in preventing serious outcomes from Covid. I think it's terrible that those who have the antibodies from previous infections and don't want to take the vaccine are made to felt like outcasts in some cases. The whole politicization of the pandemic has been fascinating and watching the anti-vaxxer movement go from fringe to somewhat mainstream is the thing that concerns me the most.

---

Surely you see the irony, don't you?

The actual number of people who are "anti" vaccination is no where close to mainstream and it is ridiculous of you to say so.

Well, in his defense, the number did shoot up when they broadened the definition of 'anti vaxer' (just like they broadened the definition of 'vacine') and therefore had a much larger pool to count! Propagandists ran headlines and simple folks were amazed! Normal folks saw through the game and rolled our eyes.

PJYoung said:

---

The US is approaching 1 million deaths from Covid, almost all of them unvaccinated.

I think I'll take my chances with the shot over natural immunity thank you very much.

---

Serious question: Is this sarcasm or meant as a serious observation?

WoMD said:

---

ATM9000 said:

---

CURDOG90 said:

---

The US is approaching 1 million deaths from WITH Covid, almost all of them unvaccinated.

I think I'll take my chances with the shot over natural immunity thank you very much.


FIFY PJ
As me, I'm not an unusually large and unhealthy normal American. I work out and eat right. I've spent my life
outdoors coming in contact with all kinds of germs and built up a hell of an immune system. I had the Covids
once and didn't even know it until I tested positive for antibodies. Not scared, don't need a shot. Enjoy living
scared.

---

PJ's got the vaccine… so probably not living scared. HTH.

---

Funny, the only people I've come across in real life (also this board) who were scared were vaccinated. And those were the people doing everything they can to blame the vaccine not protecting them, and for keeping them scared (and on their behavior of insanity), on the unvaccinated. Because if everyone stopped being so selfish, we'd be back to normal…

If you want to look at data, the fear to vaccinated ratio is pretty consistently sky high. The fear to unvaccinated ratio remains stuck at zero.

---

If going on an internet message board and calling everybody who gets vaccinated scared or living in fear makes you feel more like a renegade or cowboy then go nuts.

I wouldn't characterize most people I know who have gotten vaccinated as living in fear. Getting vaccinated is an act of caution or risk mitigation whereas fear is something that grips you where you just can't act.

In that sense, I'd turn the tables and argue people who make arbitrary exceptions around getting vaccinated for themselves yet believe it to be important for others as the ones who are actually living in fear.

ATM9000 said:

---

WoMD said:

---

ATM9000 said:

---

CURDOG90 said:

---

The US is approaching 1 million deaths from WITH Covid, almost all of them unvaccinated.

I think I'll take my chances with the shot over natural immunity thank you very much.


FIFY PJ
As me, I'm not an unusually large and unhealthy normal American. I work out and eat right. I've spent my life
outdoors coming in contact with all kinds of germs and built up a hell of an immune system. I had the Covids
once and didn't even know it until I tested positive for antibodies. Not scared, don't need a shot. Enjoy living
scared.

---

PJ's got the vaccine… so probably not living scared. HTH.

---

Funny, the only people I've come across in real life (also this board) who were scared were vaccinated. And those were the people doing everything they can to blame the vaccine not protecting them, and for keeping them scared (and on their behavior of insanity), on the unvaccinated. Because if everyone stopped being so selfish, we'd be back to normal…

If you want to look at data, the fear to vaccinated ratio is pretty consistently sky high. The fear to unvaccinated ratio remains stuck at zero.

---

If going on an internet message board and calling everybody who gets vaccinated scared or living in fear makes you feel more like a renegade or cowboy then go nuts.

I wouldn't characterize most people I know who have gotten vaccinated as living in fear. Getting vaccinated is an act of caution or risk mitigation whereas fear is something that grips you where you just can't act.

In that sense, I'd turn the tables and argue people who make arbitrary exceptions around getting vaccinated for themselves yet believe it to be important for others as the ones who are actually living in fear.

---

Took a while for me to understand this pretzeled logic. There is no 'arbitrary' element in saying that at-risk folks benefit from a vaccine which doesn't really benefit those who are not at statistical risk. Your attempt to turn the logic rationale accuses parents of a fear-motive when they say that their kid (who earned natural immunity by way of a light cough for a day) doesn't need a shot of Alpha-based mRNA vaccine. Healthy kids don't need it. Healthy young adults don't need it. People with natural immunity don't need it.

There are tons of medical procedures that I'm glad exist for those who benefit from them. If you'd benefit from liposuction and gastric bypass then it's great that it's available and I wish you a speedy recovery - but my 6-pack abs and I will kindly abstain from that procedure for reasons other than fear.

Are we seeing drop-off in vaccinations for the "legacy" shots?

I know plenty of people with young kids and many of them are continuing their vaccination schedule, minus COVID. Does that make them anti-vaxx? I have not seen many people that are stopping vaccinations unilaterally

GAC06 said:

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Aston94 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Aston94 said:

---

Its the getting natural immunity without getting very sick or dying that was the challenge.

---

Its not much of a challenge at all for most people. The one size fits all plan of make everyone get vaccinated and boosted despite risk profile or natural immunity has been a disgrace. If vaccinations stopped transmission it would have made sense.

---

With all due respect, I don't think that is accurate. It is a challenge for a significant number of people. 1 Million deaths is no joke. Now how many were due to Covid, how many would have died soon anyway, etc. are all valid questions, but to dismiss the virus as "not much of a challenge to most" is not accurate.

I know too many people who worked in hospitals that were overrun with Covid patients to believe it wasn't much of a challenge.

The vaccine worked in limiting the number of deaths, and reducing serious illness. Natural immunity works too, and probably better, but the vaccines did work.

---

It is a literal fact that covid is not and was never a threat to a significant majority of the population. That is not even remotely in dispute. You don't have to think it's accurate, it's accurate.

The vaccines were and are great for the minority that are at risk for severe outcomes from covid. Public health policy that tried to force vaccinations on healthy people and people with natural immunity has been an utter disgrace.

---

I think we are getting into semantics over what is a significant number. Assuming that the 1 million deaths are all "valid covid deaths" that still means that 99.7% of the 330 million Americans did not die from Covid, so I do get and understand what you are saying about "significant amounts".But I guess when questioning the 1 million covid deaths the question should be asked how many deaths there would have been but for the vaccine?

My point is that when any virus or disease gets to the point that it is literally overwhelming our health care system then at that point it is a significant number and a significant risk for the general population.

Were things handled correctly and the way I wanted them to be handled? No. But that doesn't mean the vaccine didn't work and it didn't mean that the virus did not pose a significant risk for our population at large that needed to be dealt with.

End Of Message said:

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PJYoung said:

---

The US is approaching 1 million deaths from Covid, almost all of them unvaccinated.

I think I'll take my chances with the shot over natural immunity thank you very much.

---

Serious question: Is this sarcasm or meant as a serious observation?

---

Anytime anyone starts their post with "serious question", just ignore the troll and move on

Aston94 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Aston94 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Aston94 said:

---

Its the getting natural immunity without getting very sick or dying that was the challenge.

---

Its not much of a challenge at all for most people. The one size fits all plan of make everyone get vaccinated and boosted despite risk profile or natural immunity has been a disgrace. If vaccinations stopped transmission it would have made sense.

---

With all due respect, I don't think that is accurate. It is a challenge for a significant number of people. 1 Million deaths is no joke. Now how many were due to Covid, how many would have died soon anyway, etc. are all valid questions, but to dismiss the virus as "not much of a challenge to most" is not accurate.

I know too many people who worked in hospitals that were overrun with Covid patients to believe it wasn't much of a challenge.

The vaccine worked in limiting the number of deaths, and reducing serious illness. Natural immunity works too, and probably better, but the vaccines did work.

---

It is a literal fact that covid is not and was never a threat to a significant majority of the population. That is not even remotely in dispute. You don't have to think it's accurate, it's accurate.

The vaccines were and are great for the minority that are at risk for severe outcomes from covid. Public health policy that tried to force vaccinations on healthy people and people with natural immunity has been an utter disgrace.

---

I think we are getting into semantics over what is a significant number. Assuming that the 1 million deaths are all "valid covid deaths" that still means that 99.97% of the 330 million Americans did not die from Covid, so I do get and understand what you are saying about "significant amounts".But I guess when questioning the 1 million covid deaths the question should be asked how many deaths there would have been but for the vaccine?

My point is that when any virus or disease gets to the point that it is literally overwhelming our health care system then at that point it is a significant number and a significant risk for the general population.

Were things handled correctly and the way I wanted them to be handled? No. But that doesn't mean the vaccine didn't work and it didn't mean that the virus did not pose a significant risk for our population at large that needed to be dealt with.

---

I'm glad you relented on the fact that covid was not a threat to most Americans. It's strange you keep arguing that "vaccines work" and "it needed to be dealt with" which are points I haven't argued against.

As for the "one million deaths", it's important to put that into perspective, something Americans have been terrible at throughout this ordeal. In 2019 2,854,838 Americans died. Throughout the now over two years of covid, it's safe to assume that over 6 million Americans died. Since covid kills the oldest and most unwell at vastly disproportionate rates from young healthy people, many deaths attributed to covid are indistinguishable from deaths "with" covid.

The point I've argued on this thread is that vaccine mandates and the general public health policy pushing them has been disgraceful and unscientific. We need to learn from this and do better next time. Unfortunately our public health officials have lost a lot of credibility (justifiably due to repeated lies) so next time may be tougher.

The vaccines cannot keep you from infection. They cannot keep you from transmitting. At best, they will likely keep you from hospitalization and death, but with risks of side effects and deaths well above any vaccines in history.

The highest case rates are in areas with the highest vaccination rates. You're entitled to call this "success" if you wish.

But let's blame their failure on people who don't use it. I'll take my chances with prophylaxis and early treatment protocols.

Picadillo said:

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but with risks of side effects and deaths well above any vaccines in history.

I'll take my chances with prophylaxis and early treatment protocols.

---

I question your knowledge of history. However, I know that you are a red-blooded 'Merican. What's more American than treating diseases after they occur rather than practicing simple preventative medicine?