Why boost for omni?

5,530 Views | 48 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by aTm2004
sweet00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
They say their initial 2 doses are not as effective on omnicron because of the mutations. Moderna and Pfizer. In the next statement they say the only thing you can do to not die is boost?

This does not reconcile in my simple mind? Can anyone explain this one?

I have heard Moderna is coming out with a new gen for latest variations but to come later.

Thx
coolerguy12
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
$$$
strohag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I think this is the wave and vax push that will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The country has had enough.
YouBet
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
strohag said:

I think this is the wave and vax push that will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The country has had enough.


Better hope so.
Gordo14
How long do you want to ignore this user?
strohag said:

I think this is the wave and vax push that will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The country has had enough.


Why are you so upset about boosters. There's plenty of data to support they help even eith Omicron, and nobody reacts so negatively about the annual flu shot (i.e. what a covid booster will turn into) or the 10-year tetanus shot. Are you all really that afraid of getting a ****ing shot?

For what it's worth nobody I know cares that now it is clear that best care is getting another booster. My advice: get the booster and move on with life as normal. It'll get your T-cell immunity in a good place for the inevitable exposures you will get in the next 2 months. Somehow you all have turned this into a conspiracy despite hard data that backs it up.

I think this will be the wave that normalizes COVID as endemic - and that's mostly a positive. But it's going to have challenges when half the country catches COVID in Jan. Better to not be arrogant, because we can easily find ourselves in a ****ty place.
sweet00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
My question is what is the urgency on boosting for omricon if it isn't effective on this mutation? What am I missing?
Jabin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sweet00 said:

My question is what is the urgency on boosting for omricon if it isn't effective on this mutation? What am I missing?
Here's what you're missing:

COVID-19 live updates: Moderna says booster increases omicron neutralizing antibodies - ABC News (go.com)
GAC06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
sweet00 said:

My question is what is the urgency on boosting for omricon if it isn't effective on this mutation? What am I missing?


If you're high risk, there's value. For people that aren't, and especially those that have already had covid the vaccines (and mandates) seem increasingly pointless.
cisgenderedAggie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Jabin said:

sweet00 said:

My question is what is the urgency on boosting for omricon if it isn't effective on this mutation? What am I missing?
Here's what you're missing:

COVID-19 live updates: Moderna says booster increases omicron neutralizing antibodies - ABC News (go.com)


ABC news said that. This is what Moderna CEO is quoted as saying.

Quote:

"The dramatic increase in COVID-19 cases from the Omicron variant is concerning to all," Stphane Bancel, Chief Executive Officer of Moderna, told ABC News. "However, these data showing that the currently authorized Moderna COVID-19 booster can boost neutralizing antibody levels 37-fold higher than pre-boost levels are reassuring."


Moderna, and ABC News for that matter, need to provide some data with transparent disclosure of how it was obtained.

Moderna and Pfizer have both stated they are working on an omicron-specific booster. It's not worth the time and money to do that if you can just boost your way to utility now. Need to pick a plot line
amercer
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
sweet00 said:

My question is what is the urgency on boosting for omricon if it isn't effective on this mutation? What am I missing?


Fundamentally, boosting will greatly raise your level of circulating antibodies. The antibodies won't be perfect, since they are against the original spike, but at high levels they will prevent infection. Your immune system makes lots of different antibodies in response to a challenge and not all of them will be directed to the region where the spike is mutated. Unfortunately, the monoclonal antibody drugs probably won't work great against omicron, since they are really specific for only one spot on the virus.

Now I do think we are getting to a place where we need to ask if we really care about infections. All the vaccines seem to prevent severe cases and death, which should be all we care about. But there are caveats. A double vaxed 80 year old is at way more risk than an unvaccinated kid. But in a week I'm taking my kids to see a bunch of 80 year olds. So while I don't care at all if me or my kids get infected at this point, I care a lot about being able to get on the plane, and not giving it to any old people. The booster probably helps with that.
strohag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
When half the country catches COVID? I'd venture to say that over half the country has already had COVID either knowingly or asymptomatic. People with natural immunity from having it or those who were vaxed and also got COVID will most likely never get COVID again.
amercer
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
They have worked on a variant specific booster for every variant that has shown up. It would be crazy not to, but in reality the omicron booster early development work will probably end up in the freezer next to the delta one.
Jabin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

Moderna and Pfizer have both stated they are working on an omicron-specific booster. It's not worth the time and money to do that if you can just boost your way to utility now. Need to pick a plot line
I read somewhere else that, given the great results from the booster &/or third shot, Moderna has decided to stay focused primarily on the current formulation rather than an omicron specific one.

However, given the paucity of data right now, they'd be foolish not to continue working on an omicron-specific booster at the same time.
cisgenderedAggie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Jabin said:

Quote:

Moderna and Pfizer have both stated they are working on an omicron-specific booster. It's not worth the time and money to do that if you can just boost your way to utility now. Need to pick a plot line
I read somewhere else that, given the great results from the booster &/or third shot, Moderna has decided to stay focused primarily on the current formulation rather than an omicron specific one.

However, given the paucity of data right now, they'd be foolish not to continue working on an omicron-specific booster at the same time.


Link?
Jabin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Moderna - Moderna Announces Preliminary Booster Data and Updates Strategy to Address Omicron Variant (modernatx.com)
TarponChaser
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sweet00 said:

They say their initial 2 doses are not as effective on omnicron because of the mutations. Moderna and Pfizer. In the next statement they say the only thing you can do to not die is boost?

This does not reconcile in my simple mind? Can anyone explain this one?

I have heard Moderna is coming out with a new gen for latest variations but to come later.

Thx

They're back to saying that getting boosted will prevent infection but prior infection/vaccination is only good for preventing a serious case.

Clown_World
How long do you want to ignore this user?
In old enough to remember when the first two shots were supposed to prevent infection.

You guys can line the elitists pockets all you want. I'll stick to my natural immunity and lifestyle choices.
CNN is the enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
agpetz
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Just curious as to where all this data is? We have known omicron has existed for about a month and you're saying there is already data to support that a booster is necessary? Do you have peer reviewed studies you could point me to?
TheMasterplan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Gordo14 said:

strohag said:

I think this is the wave and vax push that will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The country has had enough.


Why are you so upset about boosters. There's plenty of data to support they help even eith Omicron, and nobody reacts so negatively about the annual flu shot (i.e. what a covid booster will turn into) or the 10-year tetanus shot. Are you all really that afraid of getting a ****ing shot?

For what it's worth nobody I know cares that now it is clear that best care is getting another booster. My advice: get the booster and move on with life as normal. It'll get your T-cell immunity in a good place for the inevitable exposures you will get in the next 2 months. Somehow you all have turned this into a conspiracy despite hard data that backs it up.

I think this will be the wave that normalizes COVID as endemic - and that's mostly a positive. But it's going to have challenges when half the country catches COVID in Jan. Better to not be arrogant, because we can easily find ourselves in a ****ty place.
Currently the COVID-19 booster shot isn't the same as the annual flu shot and comparing a six month timeline vs. 10 years is ridiculous. What a low IQ take.

The annual flu shot protects against variants from the northern or southern hemisphere depending on the winter. To compare it to the current booster shot is a false equivalency.

The only focus should be lowering severity and illness and for the vast majority of the population a booster shot is not necessary for this. Use common sense and basic critical thinking.
CyAg86
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Why are there 4 blanks to fill in on the vaccine cards we were given last year? Duh, the plan all along was to give more than 2 doses, more big $ for big pharma.
Kyle Field Shade Chaser
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Gordo14 said:

strohag said:

I think this is the wave and vax push that will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The country has had enough.


Why are you so upset about boosters. There's plenty of data to support they help even eith Omicron, and nobody reacts so negatively about the annual flu shot (i.e. what a covid booster will turn into) or the 10-year tetanus shot. Are you all really that afraid of getting a ****ing shot?

For what it's worth nobody I know cares that now it is clear that best care is getting another booster. My advice: get the booster and move on with life as normal. It'll get your T-cell immunity in a good place for the inevitable exposures you will get in the next 2 months. Somehow you all have turned this into a conspiracy despite hard data that backs it up.

I think this will be the wave that normalizes COVID as endemic - and that's mostly a positive. But it's going to have challenges when half the country catches COVID in Jan. Better to not be arrogant, because we can easily find ourselves in a ****ty place.


Annua flu…Haven't had one in years. Just fine. Not mandatory. Flu feels worse than Covid.
winmck
How long do you want to ignore this user?
S
agpetz said:

Just curious as to where all this data is? We have known omicron has existed for about a month and you're saying there is already data to support that a booster is necessary? Do you have peer reviewed studies you could point me to?


My thoughts exactly. Where is all this data on Omni in such a short period of time?
Jabin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I suspect it's not peer reviewed, since that takes time, but here's something that popped up on my twitter feed this a.m.:

Coates
How long do you want to ignore this user?
That study is for Delta, not Omicron
Jabin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sorry, I thought that the headline only meant that Covid was used as a control. Most of this stuff is far beyond my pay grade.

Is this study on point?

Effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against the Omicron (B.1.1.529) variant of concern | medRxiv

Quote:

Conclusions Primary immunisation with two BNT162b2 or ChAdOx1 doses provided no or limited protection against symptomatic disease with the Omicron variant. Boosting with BNT162b2 following either primary course significantly increased protection.
ETA: There's also the preliminary data from Moderna that I linked above.
NicosMachine
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
We call them vaccines. But it is clear after a year of use that the mRNA shots do not produce a robust long-term B- or T-cell immune response. What they do is drive up antibodies to the spike protein (to unnaturally high levels, levels that all by themselves may cause problems, but put that aside). And those antibodies are extremely narrowly focused, not just on the spike protein but on a particular part of it. In other words, they basically turn your body into a factory for generating monoclonal antibodies for the original wild-type virus. But THOSE ANTIBODIES DON'T WORK ANYMORE AGAINST OMICRON. Its shape is too different. They can't attach properly. Which is why the Lilly and Regeneron antibodies are being phased out.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/omicron-may-sideline-two-leading-drugs-used-to-treat-covid-19-01639952770

Yet the same logic that has led to the realization that the mAb cocktails won't work is being ignored for the vaccines. Why?
cisgenderedAggie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
NicosMachine said:

We call them vaccines. But it is clear after a year of use that the mRNA shots do not produce a robust long-term B- or T-cell immune response. What they do is drive up antibodies to the spike protein (to unnaturally high levels, levels that all by themselves may cause problems, but put that aside). And those antibodies are extremely narrowly focused, not just on the spike protein but on a particular part of it. In other words, they basically turn your body into a factory for generating monoclonal antibodies for the original wild-type virus. But THOSE ANTIBODIES DON'T WORK ANYMORE AGAINST OMICRON. Its shape is too different. They can't attach properly. Which is why the Lilly and Regeneron antibodies are being phased out.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/omicron-may-sideline-two-leading-drugs-used-to-treat-covid-19-01639952770

Yet the same logic that has led to the realization that the mAb cocktails won't work is being ignored for the vaccines. Why?



Why is this clear?
Charpie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Go get all sciency on them, mijo
KidDoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
NicosMachine said:

We call them vaccines. But it is clear after a year of use that the mRNA shots do not produce a robust long-term B- or T-cell immune response. What they do is drive up antibodies to the spike protein (to unnaturally high levels, levels that all by themselves may cause problems, but put that aside). And those antibodies are extremely narrowly focused, not just on the spike protein but on a particular part of it. In other words, they basically turn your body into a factory for generating monoclonal antibodies for the original wild-type virus. But THOSE ANTIBODIES DON'T WORK ANYMORE AGAINST OMICRON. Its shape is too different. They can't attach properly. Which is why the Lilly and Regeneron antibodies are being phased out.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/omicron-may-sideline-two-leading-drugs-used-to-treat-covid-19-01639952770

Yet the same logic that has led to the realization that the mAb cocktails won't work is being ignored for the vaccines. Why?

The sad fact is that a booster is better than nothing. At least that is how the CDC is approaching it at this time. Sure the mRNA vaccines are a poor match for the new spike protein, but if you flood the body with astounding levels of poorly matched antibodies it is going to decrease risk of severe disease (at least for a few months?).

If you are high risk and it has been a long time since your last shot it is likely beneficial to get a mismatched booster. Is it as good as getting an Omicron specific booster or natural immunity? It does not seem likely. The current timeline for omicron specific boosters looks like 3/2022 or so. I'm comfortable waiting since I'm lowish risk anyway (49 with 32 bmi but dropping weight and in good CV condition) and still have high spike titer antibodies from vaccine but that may not be the best advise depending on individual risks and current level of immunity on a case by case basis.

The CDC is just painting with a broad brush and without clear evidence. They are assuming titers in the 20k + range are likely to protect from death and hospitalization with omicron and they are very likely correct. I can understand them advising widespread boosters especially in higher risk people who have no natural immunity.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
NicosMachine
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
cisgenderedAggie said:

NicosMachine said:

We call them vaccines. But it is clear after a year of use that the mRNA shots do not produce a robust long-term B- or T-cell immune response. What they do is drive up antibodies to the spike protein (to unnaturally high levels, levels that all by themselves may cause problems, but put that aside). And those antibodies are extremely narrowly focused, not just on the spike protein but on a particular part of it. In other words, they basically turn your body into a factory for generating monoclonal antibodies for the original wild-type virus. But THOSE ANTIBODIES DON'T WORK ANYMORE AGAINST OMICRON. Its shape is too different. They can't attach properly. Which is why the Lilly and Regeneron antibodies are being phased out.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/omicron-may-sideline-two-leading-drugs-used-to-treat-covid-19-01639952770

Yet the same logic that has led to the realization that the mAb cocktails won't work is being ignored for the vaccines. Why?



Why is this clear?
The demand for quarterly and semi-annual boosters is one clue. "We found this new variant that predominantly infects the vaccinated and is resistant to antibodies elicited by the vaccine. Please, go get vaccinated. And if you've already been vaccinated, please go get vaccinated more." Several studies suggests that natural immunity is multiples times better than vaccinations.
cisgenderedAggie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
NicosMachine said:

cisgenderedAggie said:

NicosMachine said:

We call them vaccines. But it is clear after a year of use that the mRNA shots do not produce a robust long-term B- or T-cell immune response. What they do is drive up antibodies to the spike protein (to unnaturally high levels, levels that all by themselves may cause problems, but put that aside). And those antibodies are extremely narrowly focused, not just on the spike protein but on a particular part of it. In other words, they basically turn your body into a factory for generating monoclonal antibodies for the original wild-type virus. But THOSE ANTIBODIES DON'T WORK ANYMORE AGAINST OMICRON. Its shape is too different. They can't attach properly. Which is why the Lilly and Regeneron antibodies are being phased out.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/omicron-may-sideline-two-leading-drugs-used-to-treat-covid-19-01639952770

Yet the same logic that has led to the realization that the mAb cocktails won't work is being ignored for the vaccines. Why?



Why is this clear?
The demand for quarterly and semi-annual boosters is one clue. "We found this new variant that predominantly infects the vaccinated and is resistant to antibodies elicited by the vaccine. Please, go get vaccinated. And if you've already been vaccinated, please go get vaccinated more." Several studies suggests that natural immunity is multiples times better than vaccinations.



There nothing clear about what you wrote. What is the clear evidence that B cells and T cells do not work?
oragator
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Preliminary studies say that previous infection doesn't help much against omicron.

https://www.thehealthsite.com/news/covid-reinfection-risk-5-4-times-higher-with-omicron-than-delta-cases-doubling-in-3-days-who-853006/

In fact, the first death in the US from omicron was someone previously infected, who might have thought they were now safe.

https://publichealth.harriscountytx.gov/Portals/27/Documents/HCPH%20Reports%20First%20Omicron%20Related%20Death%20sm.pdf?ver=oK77qT2qjHEIryPPhgBoog%3d%3d

People can do what they want, but it's going to be a really ugly few months if this data is right and people think they are immune because they had it before.
greg.w.h
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
RNA polymerases lack error correction. Hope that helps…
KidDoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Thanks for sharing the link. That population is the exact I am concerned about. Male, 40+, unvaccinated, likely with multiple comorbidities that they may or may not be aware of.

Same population that was hit hard statistically by Delta.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
NicosMachine
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
cisgenderedAggie said:

NicosMachine said:

cisgenderedAggie said:

NicosMachine said:

We call them vaccines. But it is clear after a year of use that the mRNA shots do not produce a robust long-term B- or T-cell immune response. What they do is drive up antibodies to the spike protein (to unnaturally high levels, levels that all by themselves may cause problems, but put that aside). And those antibodies are extremely narrowly focused, not just on the spike protein but on a particular part of it. In other words, they basically turn your body into a factory for generating monoclonal antibodies for the original wild-type virus. But THOSE ANTIBODIES DON'T WORK ANYMORE AGAINST OMICRON. Its shape is too different. They can't attach properly. Which is why the Lilly and Regeneron antibodies are being phased out.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/omicron-may-sideline-two-leading-drugs-used-to-treat-covid-19-01639952770

Yet the same logic that has led to the realization that the mAb cocktails won't work is being ignored for the vaccines. Why?



Why is this clear?
The demand for quarterly and semi-annual boosters is one clue. "We found this new variant that predominantly infects the vaccinated and is resistant to antibodies elicited by the vaccine. Please, go get vaccinated. And if you've already been vaccinated, please go get vaccinated more." Several studies suggests that natural immunity is multiples times better than vaccinations.



There nothing clear about what you wrote. What is the clear evidence that B cells and T cells do not work?
So your are saying the mRNA shots produce robust long-term B- or T-cell immune response like "natural immunity" and "go get your quarterly booster" and pretending that is consistent? Okie dokie.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.