I 100% believe that seeking a second opinion when you don't feel comfortable with the recommendations of first doctor, is a good idea. But the blanket statement of we don't trust doctors by aggierouge is laughable. It would be like if I said all pilots are awful and then getting on a plane to Hawaii.

There's a difference between thinking doctors are infallible and trusting doctors.

Just because someone is extremely educated on a subject does not mean they are always going to be correct. If you don't believe a diagnosis is sound and you fail to look for a second opinion, well that's on you.

Someone who is extremely educated on a subject is going to be listened to a whole lot more often than just someone who says "oh yeah well sometimes they are wrong!".

wbt5845 said:

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Note that you will never find me defending the mask. Ever since Day 1, I have professed masks don't do a damn thing UNLESS we were all wearing proper surgical masks, which will never happen.

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And yet, the same people wanting mask mandates are the ones wanting everyone vaccinated with a new vaccine. And then, when the vaccine isn't as effective as was proclaimed at first, they say to get a booster shot. Fauci comes to mind as a quick example.

Before this, like many people, I held doctors in high regards. Not anymore. They're just another person with a different job than me. Just like every profession, be it a police officer, accountant, plumber, etc, they all fall on a bell curve. To the right, you have the great ones. To the left, you have the awful ones. And the middle is filled with the majority, who are good at their jobs.

The issue is the ones in the middle and to the right cover for the ones on the left. It was amazing to see it happen in real life...just as the attorney said it would.

And with COVID, IMO, the ones on the left side of the curve seem to be the ones in power and the ones making the decisions, and the medical community has rallied around them just the same. The ones that speak up or don't buy into it are cast aside and put their careers and earnings at risk.

aTm2004 said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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There's a difference between thinking doctors are infallible and trusting doctors.

Just because someone is extremely educated on a subject does not mean they are always going to be correct. If you don't believe a diagnosis is sound and you fail to look for a second opinion, well that's on you.

Someone who is extremely educated on a subject is going to be listened to a whole lot more often than just someone who says "oh yeah well sometimes they are wrong!".

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I won't elaborate anymore that my other post because one of the docs that ended up treating my son is an Ag, so I'm not going to out the doc who effed up just incase that doc posts on TA. Let's just compare it to going in to get a few stitches on a finger and you wind up losing your hand a couple weeks later. Something that shouldn't have happened happened, and it was because corners were cut and what the doc did was not within the standards of care.

So, unless you're privy to the facts, kindly STFU and shove the "well that's on you" opinion you know where.

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Except you've made it quite clear you can take your personal experience and apply it wholesale to why doctors "don't deserve trust".

If you don't trust doctors, fine. No one is forcing you to go see a doctor.

Are you trying to get other people to believe doctors aren't infallible? Most people don't believe that to be the case.

If I take my car into a mechanic and he says it needs an engine rebuild and I really don't think it does, but let him do it without taking it to another mechanic... A week later when the car takes a dump am I going to believe the mechanic screwed up? Yes.

Will I then just never trust a mechanic again and tell people we shouldn't ever trust a mechanic because one I chose screwed up?

It sounds more like due to your incredibly sad experience that you've developed a bias against doctors and assumption that they all most be "covering for" one another. That's completely understandable, but it is a bias just like the ones you point out from those involved in the medical profession.

But I bet when you get injured you'll likely go back to a doctor, no?

Doug Ross said:

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I 100% believe that seeking a second opinion when you don't feel comfortable with the recommendations of first doctor, is a good idea. But the blanket statement of we don't trust doctors by aggierouge is laughable. It would be like if I said all pilots are awful and then getting on a plane to Hawaii.

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I'm literally on the table getting a vasectomy right now. I'm trusting the doc with my balls. If he told me to go get a Covid shot because I might die if I catch Covid I would not trust him. I stopped listening to doctors for Covid advice a long time ago. Early on I heard "we just don't know so we have to play it safe". F playing it safe. I'm going with personal freedom every time, especially with how much we know about it now. You guys see the worst of the worst and extrapolate it out to every one. It's fear mongering

Doug Ross said:

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aggierogue said:

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Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

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That video is the embodiment of what is wrong with how layman interpret VAERS reporting and why it should be taken with a gigantic grain of salt. There is no physiologic mechanism that could possibly explain her developing non-allergic reaction symptoms in the minutes following vaccine injection. Autoimmune conditions develop days to a few weeks after vaccine administration.

Her symptoms and work up are also inconsistent with any known auto-immune condition like MS, transverse myelitis, and Guillan Barre. Many of her symptoms are seen with individuals with psychosomatic issues (blurred vision, tingling, generalized weakness). She undoubtedly had lumbar punctures and multiple MRIs, all of which came back normal. She was seen 3 times in an ER and symptoms were non-concerning enough that she was discharged 3 times.

The NIH supposedly diagnosing her "with a bunch of vaccine caused injuries" is incredibly vague and overall meaningless. Likely what happened is she went over there, they ran a bunch of tests, all of them came back negative and rather than tell her everything came back negative, they threw her a bone by stating some of these symptoms might have been caused by the vaccine to validate her already formed opinion.

Neuro conditions (like West Nile virus or Guillan Barre) causing someone to be wheelchair/bed bound for months typically leads to months of formal rehab to regain strength, which based on other sources doesn't sound like it that ever happened. Needless to say, that story all sounds incredibly suspect, and again, despite thousands supposedly developing issues like this, myself and every other physician I know have yet to see this in any of their patients. In fact, the only place we are hearing of these issues is in the media who all seem to be highlighting incredibly suspect cases in individuals with no objective signs of organic disease. So even if this individuals symptoms were legitimately caused by the vaccine, they are exceptionally rare on many orders of magnitude.

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Wow. This is why I am putting less and less faith in doctors. You don't have all the answers. You think b/c you are a physician you can just dismiss people's symptoms and claim they are either making these stories up or it's all in their head.

No one is claiming that vaccine injury or death isn't rare. People are saying there are vaccine injuries and death. Some of you want to state with certainty that the vaccines are safe. There are Aggies on this site who have claimed vaccine injury and their lives changed. There are many people in the Vaccine Injury Hearing posted in this thread. One of my brother's coworkers had a heart attack and died the day after he was vaccinated. He was in his early fifties.

But b/c you haven't recognized an injury in your practice must mean they don't exist right? Nevermind the fact that many of these people are sent home without answers before anyone even gives them a real clinical checkup.

Perhaps listen to the fact that the vaccine trials and their apps have no options to share negative symptoms other than their selective options. Some weren't even allowed to continue their trials after first doses b/c they had adverse effects beyond the norm and were dismissed and not allowed to be part of the studies.

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I respect your opinion, granted I disagree. But if you have little to no faith in doctors, the next time you break a bone, have a stroke, heart attack, can't breath because of COVID-19, involved in a motor accident, or catch a case of the clap, don't come to the ER, because myself and the other EM docs on this board obviously don't know wtf we are talking about. Working in DFW for 4 years, I've individually treated a minimum of 500 covid patients at this point in my life, (the number is probably closer to 750-800 but I don't feel like doing the math right now). I've probably admitted 200 patients to the hospital? Of those 200 aprox 8 were vaccinated, and 7 of those 8 were on immunosuppressive treatment for renal/hepatic transplant. I see aprox 35 patients in a ER shift and I HAVE NEVER ADMITTED ONE PATIENT TO THE HOSPITAL FOR A VACCINE REACTION. Yes there are side effects to the vaccine, and they are grossly minor reactions if any. However, the major potential side effect to not getting it, is me sedating/paralyzing you so I can shove a piece of plastic down your trachea in the hopes that one day you can breath again on your own. But yea once again, if you don't trust us, I guess don't come to the emergency department when you need us, granted no matter what you think of us, you will always receive care in our medical expertise....emergently saving peoples lives.

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First of all, you don't respect my opinion or you wouldn't make a second post calling me out saying it's laughable.

Second of all, I never said that there are not good doctors. And I specifically responding to the guy who just dismisses the idea that people haven't been injured or died from these vaccines. I think it is very uncommon, but I certainly believe it happens.

I have an autoimmune issue that no one can explain. I don't have a diagnosis even after visiting the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota. But b/c the local doctors in my city couldn't get a diagnosis from my bloodwork, they basically treated me live a number. The Mayo Clinic did provide some knowledge, but I was still unable to get a diagnosis. I've received the most help from functional medicine doctors after living with my disease for the last decade. What I have learned through my journey is that most docs (not surgeons) are simply prescribers of medication. They run tests, they find a diagnosis, and then they generally prescribe drugs...Drugs that are generally pushed by whatever pharmaceutical reps come through their office.

So yeah, I don't have the strong faith in medicine that I had a decade ago before my autoimmune illness. I've seen a bunch of doctors and had a bunch of tests. And there are a lot of other people like me who don't have a diagnosis.

You may be great at your job. And when I've needed surgery or a visit to the ER, I've received help I've needed.

I just don't like it when people of any profession act like they have all the answers and disregard or dismiss others (especially with evidence) when their narrative is questioned.

Wakesurfer817 said:

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aTm2004 said:

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Before this, like many people, I held doctors in high regards. Not anymore. They're just another person with a different job than me. Just like every profession, be it a police officer, accountant, plumber, etc, they all fall on a bell curve. To the right, you have the great ones. To the left, you have the awful ones. And the middle is filled with the majority, who are good at their jobs.

The issue is the ones in the middle and to the right cover for the ones on the left. It was amazing to see it happen in real life...just as the attorney said it would.

And with COVID, IMO, the ones on the left side of the curve seem to be the ones in power and the ones making the decisions, and the medical community has rallied around them just the same. The ones that speak up or don't buy into it are cast aside and put their careers and earnings at risk.

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80% of American adults have now received at least one shot. Are you arguing that the poor doctors have somehow convinced the good doctors, AND the vast majority of Americans to cover for their poor practices? Would that not make all the "good" doctors bad? What about all the other smart American adults in the 80%? Are they all so easily swayed?


Seems like a stretch to me.

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Fauci and Walensky are politicians under the guise of being a doctor, IMO. Unfortunately, our political leaders and leaders of our medical associations follow everything they say, which is vaccinate vaccinate vaccinate.

They push this under threats, which is why many are silent and toe the line.

LA Times: A warning to doctors - spreading COVID misinformation could cost you your license

MSN: Maine suspends doctor's license for allegedly spreading COVID-19 misinformation

MSN: In Mississippi, doctors who spread misinformation about COVID could lose their license

I'm not against the vaccine. I believe they help people who truly need them. I do not support a one size fits all approach that is being taken. Also, did you not wonder why early on any time a treatment option was brought up, it was immediately dismissed? Nobody knew what worked at the time, but by God they knew what didn't. Now that there's a vaccine, it's the only solution it seems.

aTm2004 said:

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Wakesurfer817 said:

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aTm2004 said:

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Before this, like many people, I held doctors in high regards. Not anymore. They're just another person with a different job than me. Just like every profession, be it a police officer, accountant, plumber, etc, they all fall on a bell curve. To the right, you have the great ones. To the left, you have the awful ones. And the middle is filled with the majority, who are good at their jobs.

The issue is the ones in the middle and to the right cover for the ones on the left. It was amazing to see it happen in real life...just as the attorney said it would.

And with COVID, IMO, the ones on the left side of the curve seem to be the ones in power and the ones making the decisions, and the medical community has rallied around them just the same. The ones that speak up or don't buy into it are cast aside and put their careers and earnings at risk.

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80% of American adults have now received at least one shot. Are you arguing that the poor doctors have somehow convinced the good doctors, AND the vast majority of Americans to cover for their poor practices? Would that not make all the "good" doctors bad? What about all the other smart American adults in the 80%? Are they all so easily swayed?


Seems like a stretch to me.

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Fauci and Walensky are politicians under the guise of being a doctor, IMO. Unfortunately, our political leaders and leaders of our medical associations follow everything they say, which is vaccinate vaccinate vaccinate.

They push this under threats, which is why many are silent and toe the line.

LA Times: A warning to doctors - spreading COVID misinformation could cost you your license

MSN: Maine suspends doctor's license for allegedly spreading COVID-19 misinformation

MSN: In Mississippi, doctors who spread misinformation about COVID could lose their license

I'm not against the vaccine. I believe they help people who truly need them. I do not support a one size fits all approach that is being taken. Also, did you not wonder why early on any time a treatment option was brought up, it was immediately dismissed? Nobody knew what worked at the time, but by God they knew what didn't. Now that there's a vaccine, it's the only solution it seems.

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So basically telling Dr's to not make stuff up is a threat?

None of those articles even infer that a Dr. has to recommend vaccination… they just say Dr.'s can't lie about Covid or stray away from facts… which seems like a sound minimum standard for a State medical board not just for Covid but all medical advice.

Ahh, the facts that Fauci, the CDC, and the government say are the facts. Yeah, those facts.

We just had a doctor in Houston lose privileges at a major hospital ins Houston for not being against the vaccines, but believing one should be able to choose whether or not they need the vaccine. Can't have that kind of misinformation going on at Houston Methodist!

Quote:

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But if I'm forced to choose between believing there's an enormous cover-up and "backside covering" of doctors "protecting their own" or that doctors that I have known personally for decades are giving me their honest, educated thoughts on a subject... I'm gonna choose the latter.

Now that doesn't mean their honest, educated thoughts on a subject will turn out to be correct. But like most things in life we defer to those that are actually educated on the subject, not anecdotal evidence and message forums full of people talking about things that they have zero formal education on.

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The problem with this approach is that by the nature of the job doctors see the Covid patients with the worst outcomes and then extrapolate that out to the general population. Can't tell you how many times I've heard "I had to intubate a 33 year old male today". I asked one ER doc how many gun shot wounds or knife wounds he sees in a week. His answer was 5-7. I asked him why he doesn't recommend I wear body armor around all the time.

Doctors should be consulted when it comes to setting public policy during a pandemic but they are not god and their lived experience is going to be vastly different than 99% of the population.

aTm2004 said:

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Ahh, the facts that Fauci, the CDC, and the government say are the facts. Yeah, those facts.

We just had a doctor in Houston lose privileges at a major hospital ins Houston for not being against the vaccines, but believing one should be able to choose whether or not they need the vaccine. Can't have that kind of misinformation going on at Houston Methodist!

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That is not why she lost privileges and to frame it like that shows the motivation in your posts (as does your posting history).

That's not to say she deserved to lose her privileges -- one can absolutely debate that if they wish. But when you purposely leave out prudent facts it kind of makes it very easy to see your previously mentioned bias.

We can all do better, but you are just contributing to the problem with posts like that.

Proposition Joe said:

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aTm2004 said:

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Ahh, the facts that Fauci, the CDC, and the government say are the facts. Yeah, those facts.

We just had a doctor in Houston lose privileges at a major hospital ins Houston for not being against the vaccines, but believing one should be able to choose whether or not they need the vaccine. Can't have that kind of misinformation going on at Houston Methodist!

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That is not why she lost privileges and to frame it like that shows the motivation in your posts (as does your posting history).

That's not to say she deserved to lose her privileges -- one can absolutely debate that if they wish. But when you purposely leave out prudent facts it kind of makes it very easy to see your previously mentioned bias.

We can all do better, but you are just contributing to the problem with posts like that.

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That's not why she lost her privileges? You sure?

https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2021/11/14/houston-methodist-suspends-privileges-of-houston-doctor-hospital-following-controversial-tweets-about-covid-19-treatments/

Quote:

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Houston Methodist has suspended the privileges of a local doctor the hospital said was spreading dangerous misinformation about COVID-19 treatments.
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"The issues with Vaccines and ivermectin really go against patient autonomy and their right to choose their treatment," Dr. Bowden said.

Dr. Bowden told KPRC she feels some people are even being discriminated against because they have not been vaccinated.

"That led me to send out an email that I was going to prioritize seeing the unvaccinated," Bowden said.
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In a series of tweets the hospital said:
"Dr. Mary Bowden, who recently joined the medical staff at Houston Methodist Hospital, is using her social media accounts to express her personal and political opinions about the COVID-19 vaccine and treatments.

These opinions, which are harmful to the community, do not reflect reliable medical evidence or the values of Houston Methodist, where we have treated more than 25,000 COVID-19 inpatients, and where all our employees and physicians are vaccinated to protect our patients.

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https://www.fox26houston.com/news/houston-methodist-suspends-privileges-of-doctor-accused-of-spreading-covid-19-misinformation

Quote:

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Dr. Bowden has gone public saying that vaccine mandates are wrong and shared about her battle to give her patients ivermectin, a controversial drug hailed as a treatment for COVID by some. Houston Methodist says Dr. Bowden is "…spreading dangerous misinformation which is not based in science."

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https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/health/article/Houston-Methodist-suspends-River-Oaks-doctor-for-16615892.php

Quote:

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"Dr. Mary Bowden, who recently joined the medical staff at Houston Methodist Hospital, is using her social media accounts to express her personal and political opinions about the COVID-19 vaccine and treatments," Houston Methodist said in a statement. "These opinions, which are harmful to the community, do not reflect reliable medical evidence or the values of Houston Methodist, where we have treated more than 25,000 COVID-19 inpatients, and where all our employees and physicians are vaccinated to protect our patients."

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OH NOES!! Not a personal opinion. By golly, we can't have that. It's almost as if a 2nd opinion isn't needed anymore, isn't it?

It sure sounds like it happened because she didn't toe the vaccination line. Does that mean what she's saying is accurate or that I agree with it? No.

Your quick parsing and quoting of a half-dozen different sources continues to show your stripes.

Did she claim at any time that her hospital employer was not treating unvaccinated patients?

A simple yes or no.

No added text, just a yes or a no.

If you can't do that, then it's clear you aren't coming from an honest position.

Proposition Joe said:

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aTm2004 said:

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Ahh, the facts that Fauci, the CDC, and the government say are the facts. Yeah, those facts.

We just had a doctor in Houston lose privileges at a major hospital ins Houston for not being against the vaccines, but believing one should be able to choose whether or not they need the vaccine. Can't have that kind of misinformation going on at Houston Methodist!

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That is not why she lost privileges and to frame it like that shows the motivation in your posts (as does your posting history).

That's not to say she deserved to lose her privileges -- one can absolutely debate that if they wish. But when you purposely leave out prudent facts it kind of makes it very easy to see your previously mentioned bias.

We can all do better, but you are just contributing to the problem with posts like that.

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It not like she said she refused to treat vaccinated people... oh wait.

aTm2004 said:

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Was she suspended for not toeing the vaccination line? A simple yes or no. If no, what do you feel is the reason why?

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No.

She was suspended for saying as an employee of a hospital that she would not be accepting any patients that were vaccinated.

Her exact tweet: "I've had it. Going forward, I will not accept any patients who have been vaccinated,"

So of course she was suspended.

Now, do I have any problem with her not toeing the vaccination line? Absolutely not. If she wants to start her own practice and do so, more power to her -- I'm sure she'll have a line around the corner... Which I'm fairly certain she realized.

But when you try and parse and re-frame things as she was suspended for "believing people should have a choice on whether they get vaccinated" then you show your stripes.

I 100% agree with you that there is an issue from both sides with the spreading of misinformation.

But when you turn around and contribute to the problem it's really tough to take your seriously.

Yes of course she started her own practice. Do you really believe that this managed to make as many headlines as she did without that being her intention? I mean, c'mon.

And again -- I've got no problem with her wanting to have a practice like that. If there's a market, good on her if she wants to serve it.