Wakesurfer817 said:
2 wrongs don't make a right.
We have a way of handling executive overreach in our country. We use the courts. And we abide by their decisions even when - especially when - we disagree with them.
Edicts and counter edicts are so very…feudal.
SamHou said:
Serious question: If an employee of a federal contractor doesn't want to get vaccinated, why not just leave that company for a non-federal contractor? It seems like this would allow for choice to continue. No one is forcing you to work for company X.
Wakesurfer817 said:
2 wrongs don't make a right.
We have a way of handling executive overreach in our country. We use the courts. And we abide by their decisions even when - especially when - we disagree with them.
Edicts and counter edicts are so very…feudal.
Quote:
If Biden had done NOTHING at all then Abbott's order would not have been required.
Windy City Ag said:Quote:
If Biden had done NOTHING at all then Abbott's order would not have been required.
Abbott's order is meaningless so it was never really required.
you really believe those numbers? do you believe everything our media spits out? why were hospitals being paid $35,000 per patient to claim the deaths were Covid? Why did heart disease and cancer deaths all of a sudden drop last year? why did the Flu disappear last year? IF Covid can spread then so can the flu.. now they are saying the Flu is back... but the last 100 years the flu has been here. Lockdowns didnt stop Covid and they didnt stop the flu... All this doesnt add up, why the $35,000 per death, that isnt necessary at all...nhamp07 said:fullback44 said:yes, you said the right word, "legitimate" threat, Covid is 99.9 plus percent survivable by the population, Im not sure thats a real legitimate threat to our society...texan12 said:
Bacterial Meningitis is a legitimate threat to all so I doubt anyone is against that mandate.
Covid has killed 68,154 Texas. This divided by population of 28,995,880 equals 0.23% of total Texans.
fullback44 said:you really believe those numbers? do you believe everything our media spits out? why were hospitals being paid $35,000 per patient to claim the deaths were Covid? Why did heart disease and cancer deaths all of a sudden drop last year? why did the Flu disappear last year? IF Covid can spread then so can the flu.. now they are saying the Flu is back... but the last 100 years the flu has been here. Lockdowns didnt stop Covid and they didnt stop the flu... All this doesnt add up, why the $35,000 per death, that isnt necessary at all...nhamp07 said:fullback44 said:yes, you said the right word, "legitimate" threat, Covid is 99.9 plus percent survivable by the population, Im not sure thats a real legitimate threat to our society...texan12 said:
Bacterial Meningitis is a legitimate threat to all so I doubt anyone is against that mandate.
Covid has killed 68,154 Texas. This divided by population of 28,995,880 equals 0.23% of total Texans.
Im sure Governor Abbott knows what's behind all those numbers, if this was a real pandemic (as in deathly situation) you wouldn't have the governors coming against these mandates... they know what's going on.. The smart governors like Abbott know whats behind all of this... its a power grab
Lets just sit back and watch all this play out, I think the truth behind all the reporting and everything eventually works it way out... Covid is real no doubt, but the over inflation of the deaths is the real mystery? In all my years alive I have NEVER seen anything like this...
put on your common sense hats....
I would like to see the TOTAL Deaths in Texas from 2010 to 2021, wonder if that number is off by 68,000 excess deaths... I would bet $10,000 it isnt
Wakesurfer817 said:You might want to run your calculation again. The governor (like the President) removed the right of businesses (which are owned and operated by people) to choose as well.planoaggie123 said:nhamp07 said:planoaggie123 said:Wakesurfer817 said:But when a governor issues edicts it's ok (as long as I agree with them). Makes sense.Ol_Ag_02 said:SamHou said:
Except businesses. It seems like if choice is the goal, then allow businesses to set their rules (eg, shirt and shoes required). If an employee doesn't like it, they can go work elsewhere.
It's not a businesses choice when in response to a "president" issuing edicts using the threat of OSHA fines.
How do people not understand this.
Our governor is simply wiping out government control. Removing restrictions / unfair mandates from our president. By issuing this Abbott is actually removing government interference. Logic is tough.
Does a governor's executive order not going though the legislation overrule the president's executive order not going through legislation?
When one adds mandates and impacts people's lives....and one wipes it off....I go with the second which removes mandates and puts us back at zero.
Math.
This is very, very wrong as proven by multiple judges who have shot down complaints already.Quote:
When one person's choice (in this case business') would infringe on another's right (employees right to privacy), then the business loses its right to choose. Just because I work for you does not give you the right to ask me about or make medical decisions for me as a condition of my employment.
This is similar to the philosophy- "the right of your fist to move about freely stops at the end of my nose".
Individual autonomy especially over one's own body is sacrosanct.
Wakesurfer817 said:But when a governor issues edicts it's ok (as long as I agree with them). Makes sense.Ol_Ag_02 said:SamHou said:
Except businesses. It seems like if choice is the goal, then allow businesses to set their rules (eg, shirt and shoes required). If an employee doesn't like it, they can go work elsewhere.
It's not a businesses choice when in response to a "president" issuing edicts using the threat of OSHA fines.
How do people not understand this.
fullback44 continues to spout things that are verifiably false. 0.2% of my company has died (several thousand employees). About 0.2% of Texans have died. About 0.2% of Americans have died. The other day he stated that the flu was more likely to kill you if you're under 60 than Covid. I posted the stats. He's blatantly wrong. He doesn't care. I don't understand why he needs to just completely make crap up.nhamp07 said:fullback44 said:you really believe those numbers? do you believe everything our media spits out? why were hospitals being paid $35,000 per patient to claim the deaths were Covid? Why did heart disease and cancer deaths all of a sudden drop last year? why did the Flu disappear last year? IF Covid can spread then so can the flu.. now they are saying the Flu is back... but the last 100 years the flu has been here. Lockdowns didnt stop Covid and they didnt stop the flu... All this doesnt add up, why the $35,000 per death, that isnt necessary at all...nhamp07 said:fullback44 said:yes, you said the right word, "legitimate" threat, Covid is 99.9 plus percent survivable by the population, Im not sure thats a real legitimate threat to our society...texan12 said:
Bacterial Meningitis is a legitimate threat to all so I doubt anyone is against that mandate.
Covid has killed 68,154 Texas. This divided by population of 28,995,880 equals 0.23% of total Texans.
Im sure Governor Abbott knows what's behind all those numbers, if this was a real pandemic (as in deathly situation) you wouldn't have the governors coming against these mandates... they know what's going on.. The smart governors like Abbott know whats behind all of this... its a power grab
Lets just sit back and watch all this play out, I think the truth behind all the reporting and everything eventually works it way out... Covid is real no doubt, but the over inflation of the deaths is the real mystery? In all my years alive I have NEVER seen anything like this...
put on your common sense hats....
I would like to see the TOTAL Deaths in Texas from 2010 to 2021, wonder if that number is off by 68,000 excess deaths... I would bet $10,000 it isnt
I need proof that hospitals got 35k for a death. Proof that cancer and heart disease deaths were down.
Here's a 2019 vs 2020 comparison.
https://www.indexmundi.com/dashboards/us-deaths/texas
TarponChaser said:Wakesurfer817 said:But when a governor issues edicts it's ok (as long as I agree with them). Makes sense.Ol_Ag_02 said:SamHou said:
Except businesses. It seems like if choice is the goal, then allow businesses to set their rules (eg, shirt and shoes required). If an employee doesn't like it, they can go work elsewhere.
It's not a businesses choice when in response to a "president" issuing edicts using the threat of OSHA fines.
How do people not understand this.
The fact you can't see a fundamental difference between an edict which restricts individual freedom with governmental overreach and one which seeks to protect individual freedom by limiting government intrusion speaks volumes about you.
Windy City Ag said:This is very, very wrong as proven by multiple judges who have shot down complaints already.Quote:
When one person's choice (in this case business') would infringe on another's right (employees right to privacy), then the business loses its right to choose. Just because I work for you does not give you the right to ask me about or make medical decisions for me as a condition of my employment.
This is similar to the philosophy- "the right of your fist to move about freely stops at the end of my nose".
Individual autonomy especially over one's own body is sacrosanct.
There are literally 1000 plus articles on how much hospitals were (and still are) receiving per Covid patient .. but yes I was wrong per this article, they were actually getting $77.000 initially per Covid patient and then it was dropped to $50,000 later. I thought I read somewhere else its now $35,000 but I was wrong and will eat some crow on the $35knhamp07 said:fullback44 said:you really believe those numbers? do you believe everything our media spits out? why were hospitals being paid $35,000 per patient to claim the deaths were Covid? Why did heart disease and cancer deaths all of a sudden drop last year? why did the Flu disappear last year? IF Covid can spread then so can the flu.. now they are saying the Flu is back... but the last 100 years the flu has been here. Lockdowns didnt stop Covid and they didnt stop the flu... All this doesnt add up, why the $35,000 per death, that isnt necessary at all...nhamp07 said:fullback44 said:yes, you said the right word, "legitimate" threat, Covid is 99.9 plus percent survivable by the population, Im not sure thats a real legitimate threat to our society...texan12 said:
Bacterial Meningitis is a legitimate threat to all so I doubt anyone is against that mandate.
Covid has killed 68,154 Texas. This divided by population of 28,995,880 equals 0.23% of total Texans.
Im sure Governor Abbott knows what's behind all those numbers, if this was a real pandemic (as in deathly situation) you wouldn't have the governors coming against these mandates... they know what's going on.. The smart governors like Abbott know whats behind all of this... its a power grab
Lets just sit back and watch all this play out, I think the truth behind all the reporting and everything eventually works it way out... Covid is real no doubt, but the over inflation of the deaths is the real mystery? In all my years alive I have NEVER seen anything like this...
put on your common sense hats....
I would like to see the TOTAL Deaths in Texas from 2010 to 2021, wonder if that number is off by 68,000 excess deaths... I would bet $10,000 it isnt
I need proof that hospitals got 35k for a death. Proof that cancer and heart disease deaths were down.
Here's a 2019 vs 2020 comparison.
https://www.indexmundi.com/dashboards/us-deaths/texas
I would argue Abbott could've said this if he were really just trying to limit overreach:planoaggie123 said:
I think most people here agree with you but there needs to be an understanding that #2 came about because of #1.
#2 would never be a thing had Biden not started with #1.
This would not be a topic if not for Biden's overreach. That is the problem. Abbott is trying to limit the overreach.
[Edited out.] these are the facts that many people have been talking about since all this started, if you dont think it opens the questions as to why this was done then no big deal, most people with any common sense have questioned this.. but carry with your party lineWesMaroon&White said:
You know that was for care, since insurance was not on the hook for it. Only recently have they started billing patients.
So are you implying fraud.
So I work for such a company who has now said they'd follow federal guidance (such as American, IBM, and Southwest has said). I joined/moved for the company in May of last year. My agreement included relocation/starting bonus money I'd very likely have to pay back now if I don't get the vaccine.SamHou said:
Serious question: If an employee of a federal contractor doesn't want to get vaccinated, why not just leave that company for a non-federal contractor? It seems like this would allow for choice to continue. No one is forcing you to work for company X.
cavscout96 said:
I think the supremacy clause only applies to legislation
The bigger problem is executives, at any level issuing unilateral edicts. We have a legislative branch for a reason.
Executives fiat abounds at all levels of government. Especially the national level. Blame Congress for rolling over. It's not a good thing.
Abbot's intentions appear good, I'm happy to see ANY state give the folks in DC the double barreled #1 salute when they pull garbage like this, but the method is poor.
Of note, I think I read that Abbott added this topic to the special session.
If so, them a legislative solution protecting individuals and businesses is optimal.
I guess I had to learn this stuff in far too great a detail in several management roles and because of that, I do feel like you are literally making stuff up out of thin air. But here is how it works. It doesn't help to start with grandiose, macro, philosophical statements because that is not how employment law works in this country. We are talking about that more narrow subjects in this case.Quote:
When one person's choice (in this case business') would infringe on another's right (employees right to privacy), then the business loses its right to choose. Just because I work for you does not give you the right to ask me about or make medical decisions for me as a condition of my employment.
This is similar to the philosophy- "the right of your fist to move about freely stops at the end of my nose".
Individual autonomy especially over one's own body is sacrosanct.
Quote:
One man's liberty, they declared in a 7-2 ruling handed down the following February, cannot deprive his neighbors of their own liberty in this case by allowing the spread of disease.
"There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good," read the majority opinion. "On any other basis, organized society could not exist with safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy."
Harlan in this case wrote for a clear majority of the court. He concluded: "Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."
Quote:
The Vatican's doctrinal office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), has determined that it is "morally acceptable" for Catholics to take these vaccines against the COVID-19 Virus.
