Vaccine Hesitance

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Rex Racer
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In reply to Rule Number 32 • 5:53p, 10/10/21
AG
I started that thread, spent 16 days in the hospital, and whole-heartedly agree.

That experience was brutal. If you can reduce your odds of going through that, please do so.
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texan12
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8:04p, 10/10/21
OP,

You started a discussion in hopes for a civil discussion. Does a .3% chance of hospitalization for 18-49 year olds give you a different perspective behind any hesitancy?
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Diet Cokehead
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In reply to thirdcoast • 8:32p, 10/10/21
AG
thirdcoast said:
I also think there are a fair bit of old widows and widowers who don't really care about dying or probably welcome it.
This is my dad. All of this has become way to political and he frankly just doesn't give a **** if he dies and will never take the shot.
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Fireman
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9:07p, 10/10/21
AG
For the OP, I live my life by my own experiences, and I try to do as much research as possible, but from the beginning there has been so many lies and misinformation about this virus, I have given up trying to find any credible data. Like many on here, I have been super hesitant to get the vaccine, but being a bit overweight, I decided JNJ was right for me and my family back in May this year.

No ill effects from the vaccine and happy with my decision. During the 3rd week of August, I was with my cousin who is 37 years old, perfect health other than mild asthma, hunting and fishing buddy, as we were in Georgia getting our feeders running for the upcoming deer season. He and his family are not vaccinated, and I certainly respect his decision. We talked about Covid-19, and I shared a story from a Doctor friend of mine that attends the same Sunday School class as me, and that Doctor indicated (the Sunday before my trip to Georgia) that he had read a few reports that the vaccines and MRNA technology was destroying the weaker strains of the virus, which is good to a point, but has a nasty side effect in that it leaves us with a stronger more nasty strain to deal with if we catch the virus. It was on my mind, since I just heard it and I shared it with my cousin, who said, thanks but the vaccine is not for me or my family, and we left it at that.

Fast forward to September 15th, and I get a short text from my cousins wife, that he has Covid and is feeling pretty sick. They were monitoring his oxygen levels, and they are low 90's, and if they drop into the 80's they are headed to the hospital. The next day they drop to high 80's so the go to the hospital, but the hospital does not admit him, send him home and say this is part of it, bring him back if the Oxygen levels get worse. They do get worse, and he's so weak a day or two later that they call for an ambulance to take him to the hospital. He's been on a BiPAP machine for over two weeks, and they've indicated his lungs are so weak and have some much damage from Covid pneumonia that they are unsure, how they are going to get him off the machine. His wife has been resisting putting him on a ventilator. He's developed sepsis and a UTI, and they've indicated he will be in the hospital through the end of the year at least, and will need help from a pulmonologist and PT to learn to walk again. The part that breaks my heart the most is hearing the stories about times when they try to take him off the BiPAP and he can't breath so he begs for them to put him back on the machine so he can breath. Similar problems when he tries to eat and then catch his breath.

You are trying to make an important decision, so I share this with you for that purpose only. My cousin was resolute with his decision, and even said, if I get CV-19 and I die, then it was God's will, he was comfortable with his decision. I think the missing data point from his decision was, you don't just get CV-19 and die a day or two later. In watching what he is going through, CV-19 slowly suffocates you to death, which, if you believe the vaccine can help prevent that, I think it's something most of us would choose to avoid. There's tremendous financial stress on the family too, so it is a very challenging situation.

Hope this helps.
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Get Off My Lawn
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In reply to cc_ag92 • 9:13p, 10/10/21
cc_ag92 said:
If you're implying that I'm obsessed, then you misread my intention. It sounds like your answer to my question is that there is no scientific evidence or data that would change your mind. Thanks for your input.
If things change for the worse (ex a new variant with 100 fold increase in fatal outcomes regardless of natural immunity that IS mitigated by a vaccine), I'd change my mind to reflect the new reality. But I've seen enough that another chart or stat (no matter how honest or accurate) isn't going to change my persuasion.

What MIGHT persuade me is if Covid zealots just dropped the matter with a declaration that the old normal would be restored on 1/1/2022.

But that doubles back to your intention being silly. You can't solve a mathematical equation while blocking off half of it, and you'll never understand a persuasion gap if you limit discussion to factors that aren't really even material to the alternative perspectives.
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bigtruckguy3500
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In reply to Diet Cokehead • 9:14p, 10/10/21
Diet Cokehead said:
thirdcoast said:
I also think there are a fair bit of old widows and widowers who don't really care about dying or probably welcome it.
This is my dad. All of this has become way to political and he frankly just doesn't give a **** if he dies and will never take the shot.
Death, unfortunately, isn't a light switch for most people. The fact is that many people who think they don't care about dying will still end up going to the hospital when they're injured or sick. They'll get poked and prodded, and some will end up on vents, some will end up on bipap machines, etc. Many will survive. But among the older/higher risk individuals, many will end up more frail than when they went in. Their risk of a secondary infection, a fall, a broken hip, a blood clot, etc., all go up.

The same can be said for smoking, or drinking. Who cares if smoking takes 5 years off your life? The problem is it degrades the quality of your life otherwise. And same with heavy drinking - liver failure is a horrible death.

Gonna add this in here:
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Rule Number 32
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11:09p, 10/10/21
AG
During my first week in the hospital, I can't tell you how fearful I was that I would have a story just like that video. When I got it, my wife, my parents, my sister in law (smoker), and in laws all got it. During my 7 days in basically complete isolation except minimal contact with nurses, I played that scenario out in my head a million times. Especially with my mother in law, who had a pretty rough run with it but managed to avoid a hospital stay thankfully. I can't stress enough how much regret I had over the stress I was putting my family through. I know even if I was vaccinated, I could still pass it along, but at least I wouldn't have been in the hospital most likely and I would have been able to help.
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cc_ag92
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In reply to Fireman • 6:41a, 10/11/21
AG
Thank you. I'm so sorry that your cousin and his loved ones are experiencing this.
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cc_ag92
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In reply to Get Off My Lawn • 6:46a, 10/11/21
AG
I do appreciate the first paragraph of your response.

I find it interesting that you resort to insults, calling my intention "silly" and dismissing me when I ask for you to share what hypothetical data it would take to change the mind of the unvaccinated without prior infection.
I understand the mindset of those who are making their decision based on politics. What I am wondering about is what it would take to change the mind of those who are making their decisions based on data.



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Get Off My Lawn
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In reply to cc_ag92 • 8:12a, 10/11/21
I think you overestimate people. Almost nobody makes their decision based exclusively on data. Even those of us trained to STEM fields must factor other things (available capital, ROI, regulations, safety factors, corporate goals, etc).

Most people who chose to get vaccinated made their decision off of fear, rather than data, with many being an order of magnitude off on their understanding of the risk of hospitalization. And anyone pushing to vaccinate / mask / isolate kids clearly needs a refresher on the data.

Painting this as data-minded-rational people vs anti-vax-deplorables may make you feel superior, but isn't at all the situation at hand.
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WesMaroon&White
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8:43a, 10/11/21
AG
"Most people who chose to get vaccinated made their decision off of fear, rather than data, with many being an order of magnitude off on their understanding of the risk of hospitalization."

Wow. There is a lot of data to support the vaccine and my decision to get vaccinated - including the advice from my doctor. But according to you it just must be fear, right.
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ATM9000
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In reply to Get Off My Lawn • 9:00a, 10/11/21
AG
Get Off My Lawn said:

Most people who chose to get vaccinated made their decision off of fear, rather than data, with many being an order of magnitude off on their understanding of the risk of hospitalization.


Agree with most of your post… but this line is absolute ignorance.
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Get Off My Lawn
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In reply to ATM9000 • 9:13a, 10/11/21
ATM9000 said:
Get Off My Lawn said:

Most people who chose to get vaccinated made their decision off of fear, rather than data, with many being an order of magnitude off on their understanding of the risk of hospitalization.


Agree with most of your post… but this line is absolute ignorance.
...it's absolutely fear that inspires the action. In some cases, warranted and backed up by data, and in some cases based on messaging from external sources, but the human motivator in question is the fear of a negative experience (death, hospitalization, long-covid, a rough weekend, etc).

This shouldn't be controversial and is pretty basic psychology. People aren't acting because they've thoroughly calculated their personal risk data - they're acting because they believe doing so will help them to avoid something they fear.

Data should be a foundation, but every helmet-less motorcycle rider wearing masks shows us that people aren't good little risk analysis computers.
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ATM9000
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In reply to Get Off My Lawn • 11:00a, 10/11/21
AG
Get Off My Lawn said:
ATM9000 said:
Get Off My Lawn said:

Most people who chose to get vaccinated made their decision off of fear, rather than data, with many being an order of magnitude off on their understanding of the risk of hospitalization.


Agree with most of your post… but this line is absolute ignorance.
...it's absolutely fear that inspires the action. In some cases, warranted and backed up by data, and in some cases based on messaging from external sources, but the human motivator in question is the fear of a negative experience (death, hospitalization, long-covid, a rough weekend, etc).

This shouldn't be controversial and is pretty basic psychology. People aren't acting because they've thoroughly calculated their personal risk data - they're acting because they believe doing so will help them to avoid something they fear.

Data should be a foundation, but every helmet-less motorcycle rider wearing masks shows us that people aren't good little risk analysis computers.


Data and fear aren't mutually exclusive things and that's what makes your argument a bizarre one.
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Gordo14
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In reply to Get Off My Lawn • 11:04a, 10/11/21
Get Off My Lawn said:
cc_ag92 said:
If you're implying that I'm obsessed, then you misread my intention. It sounds like your answer to my question is that there is no scientific evidence or data that would change your mind. Thanks for your input.
If things change for the worse (ex a new variant with 100 fold increase in fatal outcomes regardless of natural immunity that IS mitigated by a vaccine), I'd change my mind to reflect the new reality. But I've seen enough that another chart or stat (no matter how honest or accurate) isn't going to change my persuasion.

What MIGHT persuade me is if Covid zealots just dropped the matter with a declaration that the old normal would be restored on 1/1/2022.

But that doubles back to your intention being silly. You can't solve a mathematical equation while blocking off half of it, and you'll never understand a persuasion gap if you limit discussion to factors that aren't really even material to the alternative perspectives.


By the time we realize that there is a new variant that is substantially worse and the vaccine is effective against, odds are it would be too late to get the vaccine in time to matter for that wave of infections. Most people didn't really appreciate the severity of the August wave until it was basically at it's peak. Add on 4-8 weeks from vaccination decision until full protection.

People aren't dying from the vaccine, but they are dying and filling up hospitals from COVID. My friend who is a resident working in Houston ICU right now told me that normally their capacity is 16 in the ICU. At their peak they had 42 people in the ICU and were completely unable to transfer the excess patients out due to similar issues across the board. Only 2 of the COVID patients were vaxed - both 70+ year old men with the JNJ vaccine. The other covid patients were unvaxed. Given that the unvaxed population skews younger and is a large minority of the US population at this point, that should be eye opening.
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Gordo14
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In reply to Fireman • 11:09a, 10/11/21
Fireman said:
that Doctor indicated (the Sunday before my trip to Georgia) that he had read a few reports that the vaccines and MRNA technology was destroying the weaker strains of the virus, which is good to a point, but has a nasty side effect in that it leaves us with a stronger more nasty strain to deal with if we catch the virus.


This is just blatantly wrong. This current variant was always going to be the dominant strain once it mutated in India (a country that had low vaccination rates). This variant completely took over and infected the vast majority of a billion+ people in a month or two.
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Get Off My Lawn
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In reply to ATM9000 • 11:19a, 10/11/21
ATM9000 said:
Get Off My Lawn said:
ATM9000 said:
Get Off My Lawn said:

Most people who chose to get vaccinated made their decision off of fear, rather than data, with many being an order of magnitude off on their understanding of the risk of hospitalization.


Agree with most of your post… but this line is absolute ignorance.
...it's absolutely fear that inspires the action. In some cases, warranted and backed up by data, and in some cases based on messaging from external sources, but the human motivator in question is the fear of a negative experience (death, hospitalization, long-covid, a rough weekend, etc).

This shouldn't be controversial and is pretty basic psychology. People aren't acting because they've thoroughly calculated their personal risk data - they're acting because they believe doing so will help them to avoid something they fear.

Data should be a foundation, but every helmet-less motorcycle rider wearing masks shows us that people aren't good little risk analysis computers.


Data and fear aren't mutually exclusive things and that's what makes your argument a bizarre one.
The OP was trying to have a myopic discussion about data's potential persuasion. I've highlighted that there are numerous reasons why that's not a terribly useful construct to operate within.

In fact, those who vaccinate at the highest rates have the worst misunderstanding of the risk posed by the virus.


https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/354938/adults-estimates-covid-hospitalization-risk.aspx

The results show a group of people who overstate the virus' risk, see the vaccine as a miracle cure, and thus take it (which is ultimately quite probably the "right" choice despite their initial egregious misunderstanding). Alternatively, those who best understand the risk of the virus tend to underestimate the value of the vaccine and are less likely to vaccinate and more likely to have a serious reaction.

So the "desired" behavior is actually produced to a higher degree through a high fear built off of misinformation / misrepresentation than from pure data. More data doesn't get to the result desired in OP, it would actually have reduced it.
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texan12
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In reply to Gordo14 • 11:24a, 10/11/21
Except it's not eye opening at all
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htxag09
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4:30p, 10/11/21
AG
lol at people only getting the vaccine because of fear, not data

I get the flu vaccine every year. Have I ever once thought I may get the flu and die? No. I think the vaccine is worth the increased chances of avoiding having to deal with the flu for a week.

About 4 years ago I got pneumonia and was in the ICU for 6 days. Before that trip to the hospital, I was in the middle of training for my second marathon, long runs were in the 15 mile range. It took me a month after being released from the hospital to be able to run a mile without stopping.

Point being, you saying but the mortality rate is only .3% so if you get the vaccine you're doing so out of fear not based on data is as far off base as those on the opposite side of the spectrum you insult every chance you get. Mortality rate is one piece of the puzzle and there is a lot more to it. Is my risk of having serious complications from COVID small, even minute? Yes. But can the results be severe? Yes. Personally, after talking to my doctor, reading from doctors on here, and doing research, I thought the risk of the vaccine was even smaller. Made that risk reward analysis a no brainer, to me.
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cc_ag92
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In reply to Get Off My Lawn • 6:09p, 10/11/21
AG
My friend died today. I won't say to you what I want to say. I also won't see any of your posts anymore, so don't bother responding.
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cc_ag92
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In reply to htxag09 • 6:10p, 10/11/21
AG
Thank you for responding rationally. I appreciate people like you.
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unmade bed
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6:31p, 10/11/21
I've been fully vaccinated since March. That being said, nothing about the messaging that has been put out there by those charged with encouraging the vaccine makes me think they are really interested in reaching out to vaccine hesitant people. In fact, its the exact opposite. It seems like those in charge are doing everything they can to make the vaccine hesitant dig in their heals and resist (to their own detriment).

At this point there is enough information out there for anyone that is on the fence to make a well reasoned decision but all the noise out there is interfering and I can't help but feel like it's intentional.
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WesMaroon&White
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In reply to cc_ag92 • 7:44p, 10/11/21
AG
cc_ag92 said:
My friend died today. I won't say to you what I want to say. I also won't see any of your posts anymore, so don't bother responding.
Sorry for your loss.

I had a feeling this thread was seeking to understand someone's decision and what could be done differently.
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Get Off My Lawn
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In reply to WesMaroon&White • 8:38a, 10/12/21
WesMaroon&White said:
cc_ag92 said:
My friend died today. I won't say to you what I want to say. I also won't see any of your posts anymore, so don't bother responding.
Sorry for your loss.

I had a feeling this thread was seeking to understand someone's decision and what could be done differently.
Agreed. I have lost neighbors who I liked (post vaccine availability), and haven't been trying to make light of anyone's losses. I just see OP's underlying assumption as a misdiagnosis (to assume non-vaccination is an ignorance issue to be fixed with better data).

If you want to know why folks aren't getting vaccinated (especially higher risk folks) - go ask them and listen to their reasons!

For the remaining population (who has resisted strategies implemented thus far) it's reasonable to assume a different persuasion tactic would be necessary. The harder they're pushed the more they bristle, so a dialed back "push" would open up many of them. Personal loss will probably continue to chip off some more (albeit a painful and inefficient way to gain converts).
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FratboyLegend
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In reply to texan12 • 9:19p, 10/12/21
texan12 said:
Got it. I thought it was 3% based on my memory and then everyone called me out. Turns out it's more like .02% for 18-49 year olds.
So you were off by a factor of over a hundred, BEFORE normalizing for the age skew? You should really be more careful what you represent as fact, especially on this forum.
#CertifiedSIP
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Nitro Power
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10:35a, 10/13/21
AG
I don't often post here, but after reading the first page it seemed rather cordial, so I would like to explain where I am, and my position as it pertains to the vaccine. Despite of what any doctor or anyone might say, the long term effects of mRNA are not, and cannot be known for a very long time.

The messaging throughout has been extremely poor. You had different resources giving different covid data. I understand some variance in reporting, but they numbers were all over the board. Then it became known there were a number of cases of false positives, over stating statistics, etc.

I digress, let me focus more on the specific question in the OP. I'm mid-30's smoke occasionally, and drink periodically. However, I do some form of exercise almost daily. Some days it's more strenuous than others. Point remains that I make it a point to do some form of exercise.

My immune system is extremely strong. I am good for the common cold annually, like clockwork. Otherwise, I don't get sick. This has been commonplace for the last 20+ years. At this point, I don't see how I could have avoided having the virus, but if I did I have had no symptoms.

When taking the above factors into consideration, I do not personally see how the potential long term risk of an unknown vaccine technology outweighs what I know to be fact as it pertains to my overall health.

I will say this, when / if the Novavax vaccine becomes available, I will likely get that shot. Not looking for judgement or criticism about anything previously mentioned, just simply conversing with the OP.
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petebaker
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11:38a, 10/13/21
Many Airline Pilots, up to 30%, could be opting out for their reasons as well

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fc2112
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11:45a, 10/13/21
To the OP - my belief is there is no medical evidence that could be presented to someone who has not gotten the vaccine yet to convince them to get it. People who have not gotten the vaccine yet have resigned themselves to suffer the consequences of that choice.
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texan12
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In reply to Nitro Power • 11:51a, 10/13/21
Good luck reasoning with this board. OP wanted a civil discussion, but does not seem receptive to data that may present an actual conversation.

I'm glad I had to do some research after I mistakenly over estimating the severity, or lack of, of the virus and found I have less than a .5 % chance of dying or even being hospitalized.
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Teslag
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In reply to Nitro Power • 11:56a, 10/13/21
AG
Nitro Power said:
I don't often post here, but after reading the first page it seemed rather cordial, so I would like to explain where I am, and my position as it pertains to the vaccine. Despite of what any doctor or anyone might say, the long term effects of mRNA are not, and cannot be known for a very long time.

The messaging throughout has been extremely poor. You had different resources giving different covid data. I understand some variance in reporting, but they numbers were all over the board. Then it became known there were a number of cases of false positives, over stating statistics, etc.

I digress, let me focus more on the specific question in the OP. I'm mid-30's smoke occasionally, and drink periodically. However, I do some form of exercise almost daily. Some days it's more strenuous than others. Point remains that I make it a point to do some form of exercise.

My immune system is extremely strong. I am good for the common cold annually, like clockwork. Otherwise, I don't get sick. This has been commonplace for the last 20+ years. At this point, I don't see how I could have avoided having the virus, but if I did I have had no symptoms.

When taking the above factors into consideration, I do not personally see how the potential long term risk of an unknown vaccine technology outweighs what I know to be fact as it pertains to my overall health.

I will say this, when / if the Novavax vaccine becomes available, I will likely get that shot. Not looking for judgement or criticism about anything previously mentioned, just simply conversing with the OP.


What did your personal physician recommend you do?
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htxag09
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In reply to texan12 • 12:08p, 10/13/21
AG
Sure, that's a thought out response and I respect his decision. I also respect the time to type it out. But I could say the same about you and nitro in regards to "good luck reasoning with" yall.

So the basic answer to the OP's question is no data would convince nitro to get the vaccine. Well not until the vaccine has been used for 5, 10, 20? years so he can see the long term data. Even then, would you believe it? I mean when every doctor, including the ones on this board who have been very honest, open, and critical of mandates that aren't data backed, scientists, basically everyone says the long term risk of the vaccine is basically nil, it's just not how vaccines work, but you don't believe them because you can't see for yourself, what would it take you to believe it? Never mind the fact that you could make the exact same argument about long term side effects of Covid.
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texan12
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In reply to htxag09 • 12:41p, 10/13/21
You're assuming I'm an unreasonable person though. Why? Do you think I'm also opposed to all other vaccines because of this one?

Based on my circumstance and the numbers I've see, I would wait for the Novavax option since it has been a widely used vaccine technique in the past. I would get one of the 3 others if I had to take in any of my older relatives at home.

As far as long term side effects from the virus, that is my greatest risk and that's on me.
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petebaker
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12:43p, 10/13/21
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htxag09
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In reply to texan12 • 12:59p, 10/13/21
AG
I can ask you the same question. You were the first to imply that I'm an unreasonable person, or that this board is, I was simply quoting what you said. Why?
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cc_ag92
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In reply to Nitro Power • 1:42p, 10/13/21
AG
Thanks for your considered and on topic response. I completely agree with you about the poor messaging from the beginning and continuing into today. This is actually why I asked the question. I wonder what messaging might change someone's mind.

It's clear that you have thought it through and made a decision based on your personal risk factors. I can appreciate that. I promise that I didn't post this question in an effort to judge you or anyone else.

Again, I appreciate your time.
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