Myocarditis After Covid Vaccine

9,442 Views | 65 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by petebaker
nattychamps22
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Hello,

I'm curious about myocarditis as a side effect from the COVID shot. Has anyone here experienced this or know how common it is? And what are the symptoms and timeframe we should be looking for? Is it usually self-resolving?
Aggie95
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AG
not as common as those with COVID.
Primarily it would be within days to week(s)
Shortness of breath...labored breathing when working out.
bay fan
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S
Recent study of approximately 2,000,000 people came up with 21 cases, 19 in men. It also conduced your chances of myocarditis associated with a Covid infection is far more likely.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/25/health/covid-myocarditis-vaccine.html

If you're one of a statistic that small, go get a lottery ticket!

If you are worried about myocarditis, get the vaccine before the virus.
KidDoc
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AG
bay fan said:

Recent study of approximately 2,000,000 people came up with 21 cases, 19 in men. It also conduced your chances of myocarditis associated with a Covid infection is far more likely.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/25/health/covid-myocarditis-vaccine.html

If you're one of a statistic that small, go get a lottery ticket!

If you are worried about myocarditis, get the vaccine before the virus.
That report is WAY low, here is a newer one directly from CDC:
CDC Awardee COVID-19 Vaccination Planning Meeting

Check out slide 7. For example in men ages 18-24 we expect 1-11 cases yearly, there are 213 cases reported in excess of expected.

It is rare and it is more common with wild infection relative to vaccine but the above linked NYtimes article vastly underestimates the frequency. In addition, 90% of these cases were hospitalized and 22% have persistent cardiac dysfucntion. It is a risk just a very small one.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
bay fan
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S
KidDoc said:

bay fan said:

Recent study of approximately 2,000,000 people came up with 21 cases, 19 in men. It also conduced your chances of myocarditis associated with a Covid infection is far more likely.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/25/health/covid-myocarditis-vaccine.html

If you're one of a statistic that small, go get a lottery ticket!

If you are worried about myocarditis, get the vaccine before the virus.
That report is WAY low, here is a newer one directly from CDC:
CDC Awardee COVID-19 Vaccination Planning Meeting

Check out slide 7. For example in men ages 18-24 we expect 1-11 cases yearly, there are 213 cases reported in excess of expected.

It is rare and it is more common with wild infection relative to vaccine but the above linked NYtimes article vastly underestimates the frequency. In addition, 90% of these cases were hospitalized and 22% have persistent cardiac dysfucntion. It is a risk just a very small one.
So numbers aside (all I had was the article I linked), we seem to agree that myocarditis is more common with viral infection then the vaccine which is the main point I was making.

Question, do the 213 excess cases represent both those caused by inflection and associated with the vaccine?
samurai_science
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https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1436032609033797632?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3AClayTravis%7Ctwgr%5EeyJ0ZndfZXhwZXJpbWVudHNfY29va2llX2V4cGlyYXRpb24iOnsiYnVja2V0IjoxMjA5NjAwLCJ2ZXJzaW9uIjpudWxsfSwidGZ3X2hvcml6b25fdHdlZXRfZW1iZWRfOTU1NSI6eyJidWNrZXQiOiJodGUiLCJ2ZXJzaW9uIjpudWxsfSwidGZ3X3NwYWNlX2NhcmQiOnsiYnVja2V0Ijoib2ZmIiwidmVyc2lvbiI6bnVsbH19&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.clayandbuck.com%2F

Teenage boys are six times more likely to suffer from heart problems from the vaccine than be hospitalised from Covid-19, a major study has found
KidDoc
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AG
This is the kind of data I have been worried about seeing. In healthy teens I think the risk of current doses of mRNA vaccine equals or exceeds the risk of natural infection. No other country is pushing this age to get vaccine.

Now teens with any health issue at all, it is worth the low risk of myocarditis.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
KidDoc
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AG
bay fan said:

KidDoc said:

bay fan said:

Recent study of approximately 2,000,000 people came up with 21 cases, 19 in men. It also conduced your chances of myocarditis associated with a Covid infection is far more likely.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/25/health/covid-myocarditis-vaccine.html

If you're one of a statistic that small, go get a lottery ticket!

If you are worried about myocarditis, get the vaccine before the virus.
That report is WAY low, here is a newer one directly from CDC:
CDC Awardee COVID-19 Vaccination Planning Meeting

Check out slide 7. For example in men ages 18-24 we expect 1-11 cases yearly, there are 213 cases reported in excess of expected.

It is rare and it is more common with wild infection relative to vaccine but the above linked NYtimes article vastly underestimates the frequency. In addition, 90% of these cases were hospitalized and 22% have persistent cardiac dysfucntion. It is a risk just a very small one.
So numbers aside (all I had was the article I linked), we seem to agree that myocarditis is more common with viral infection then the vaccine which is the main point I was making.

Question, do the 213 excess cases represent both those caused by inflection and associated with the vaccine?


The excess cases reported on slide 7 are attributed to vaccine.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
nattychamps22
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What about people in their 20's?
texan12
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Why does this effect only teenage males? Since the mRNA vaccine doesn't have any sort of virus associated with it, does this show that the mRNA vaccine could carry the same side effects as the virus itself?
nattychamps22
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Had the same thought as well.
harge57
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AG
And if you have already had the virus?
Zobel
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AG
Myocarditis seems to be more common with young men, period. And it is also caused by a lot of things, including other vaccines. So this is probably more of a general immune system thing than a covid vaccine specific thing.
texan12
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https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539

Often, the cause of myocarditis isn't identified. There are many potential causes but the risk of developing myocarditis is rare.

Potential causes of myocarditis include:

Viruses. Many viruses are commonly associated with myocarditis, including the viruses that cause the common cold (adenovirus); COVID-19; hepatitis B and C; parvovirus, which causes a mild rash, usually in children (fifth disease); and herpes simplex virus.

Gastrointestinal infections (echoviruses), mononucleosis (Epstein-Barr virus) and German measles (rubella) also can cause myocarditis. It's also common in people with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.

Bacteria. Bacteria that can cause myocarditis include staphylococcus, streptococcus, the bacterium that causes diphtheria and the tick-borne bacterium responsible for Lyme disease.
Parasites. Among these are such parasites as Trypanosoma cruzi and toxoplasma, including some that are transmitted by insects and can cause a condition called Chagas disease. Chagas disease is much more common in Central and South America than in the United States, but it can occur in travelers and in immigrants from that part of the world.
Fungi. Yeast infections, such as candida; molds, such as aspergillus; and other fungi, such as histoplasma, often found in bird droppings, can sometimes cause myocarditis, particularly in people with weakened immune systems.
Myocarditis also sometimes occurs if you're exposed to:

Medications or illegal drugs that might cause an allergic or toxic reaction. These include drugs used to treat cancer; antibiotics, such as penicillin and sulfonamide drugs; some anti-seizure medications; and some illegal substances, such as cocaine.
Chemicals or radiation. Exposure to certain chemicals, such as carbon monoxide, and radiation can sometimes cause myocarditis.
Other diseases. These include disorders such as lupus, Wegener's granulomatosis, giant cell arteritis and Takayasu's arteritis.
Fenrir
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baron_von_awesome said:

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1436032609033797632?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3AClayTravis%7Ctwgr%5EeyJ0ZndfZXhwZXJpbWVudHNfY29va2llX2V4cGlyYXRpb24iOnsiYnVja2V0IjoxMjA5NjAwLCJ2ZXJzaW9uIjpudWxsfSwidGZ3X2hvcml6b25fdHdlZXRfZW1iZWRfOTU1NSI6eyJidWNrZXQiOiJodGUiLCJ2ZXJzaW9uIjpudWxsfSwidGZ3X3NwYWNlX2NhcmQiOnsiYnVja2V0Ijoib2ZmIiwidmVyc2lvbiI6bnVsbH19&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.clayandbuck.com%2F

Teenage boys are six times more likely to suffer from heart problems from the vaccine than be hospitalised from Covid-19, a major study has found
Is there an actual study that can be linked to? Telegraph wants my email to read the article and that is not going to happen.
jopatura
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AG
I have one friend whose teenage son had mild myocarditis from the Pfizer vaccine. She said "chest pain/pressure and pounding heart or rapid heart rate. Enough to wake him from his sleep. Shortness of breath is also common but he didn't have trouble breathing." He was taken by an ambulance to the hospital and spent a couple of days there. They ran all sorts of tests on him but couldn't find any other possible cause. Autoimmune diseases run in the family, so the hospital thought he might be more susceptible because of that.
NewOldAg
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AG
nattychamps22 said:

What about people in their 20's?


The Guardian has a free article and providesa rate of 162.2 people out of 1 million aged 14 and 15 will have myocarditis. It drops to 94 for aged 16 and 17.

Two points make a line, but with as wild as Covid has been, who knows.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study
WolfCall
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I have a few citations for recent journal articles I obtained from a PubMed (National Library of Medicine) search using the following search terms phrase: Covid Vaccine AND Heart.

Some of you may be confronted with the decision about whether or not to vaccinate your children......

Citations follow with title of journal article in bold text and abbreviated journal name italicized.
Quote:

Quote:
Items 1-29 of 29 (Display the 29 citations in PubMed)

1: Sivakumaran P, Sunny J, Tsagkridi A, Khanji MY. Myopericarditis following SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccine: the role of cardiac biomarkers and multimodality imaging. Eur Heart J Cardiovasc Imaging. 2021 Sep 6:jeab183. doi: 10.1093/ehjci/jeab183. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34487161.

2: McFadyen JD, Peter K. The known knowns and known unknowns of vaccine-induced thrombotic thrombocytopaenia. Cardiovasc Res. 2021 Sep 2:cvab275. doi: 10.1093/cvr/cvab275. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34472568.

3: Tate C, Demashkieh L, Hakmeh W. Isolated Tachycardia Presenting After Pfizer- BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccination. Cureus. 2021 Jul 28;13(7):e16706. doi: 10.7759/cureus.16706. PMID: 34466331; PMCID: PMC8397831.

4: Lee E, Chew NWS, Ng P, Yeo TJ. Reply to "Letter to the editor: Myocarditis should be considered in those with a troponin rise and unobstructed coronary arteries following PfizerBioNTech COVID-19 vaccination". QJM. 2021 Aug 31:hcab232. doi: 10.1093/qjmed/hcab232. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34463770.

5: Ford GA, Hargroves D, Lowe D, Hicks N, Lip GYH, Rooney G, Oatley H. Targeted atrial fibrillation (AF) detection in COVID-19 vaccination clinics. Eur Heart J Qual Care Clin Outcomes. 2021 Aug 27:qcab061. doi: 10.1093/ehjqcco/qcab061. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34448836.

6: Shazley O, Alshazley M. A COVID-Positive 52-Year-Old Man Presented With Venous Thromboembolism and Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation Following Johnson & Johnson Vaccination: A Case-Study. Cureus. 2021 Jul 14;13(7):e16383. doi: 10.7759/cureus.16383. PMID: 34408937; PMCID: PMC8362796.

7: Li C, Chen Y, Zhao Y, Lung DC, Ye Z, Song W, Liu FF, Cai JP, Wong WM, Yip CC, Chan JF, To KK, Sridhar S, Hung IF, Chu H, Kok KH, Jin DY, Zhang AJ, Yuen KY. Intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine can induce acute myopericarditis in mouse model. Clin Infect Dis. 2021 Aug 18:ciab707. doi: 10.1093/cid/ciab707. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34406358.

8: Kim IC, Kim H, Lee HJ, Kim JY, Kim JY. Cardiac Imaging of Acute Myocarditis Following COVID-19 mRNA Vaccination. J Korean Med Sci. 2021 Aug 16;36(32):e229. doi: 10.3346/jkms.2021.36.e229. PMID: 34402228; PMCID: PMC8369314.

9: King WW, Petersen MR, Matar RM, Budweg JB, Cuervo Pardo L, Petersen JW. Myocarditis following mRNA vaccination against SARS-CoV-2, a case series. Am Heart J Plus. 2021 Aug;8:100042. doi: 10.1016/j.ahjo.2021.100042. Epub 2021 Aug 9. PMID: 34396358; PMCID: PMC8349733.

10: Jain SS, Steele JM, Fonseca B, Huang S, Shah S, Maskatia SA, Buddhe S, Misra N, Ramachandran P, Gaur L, Eshtehardi P, Anwar S, Kaushik N, Han F, Chaudhuri NR, Grosse-Wortmann L. COVID-19 Vaccination-Associated Myocarditis in Adolescents. Pediatrics. 2021 Aug 13:e2021053427. doi: 10.1542/peds.2021-053427. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34389692.

11: Sung JG, Sobieszczyk PS, Bhatt DL. Acute Myocardial Infarction Within 24 Hours After COVID-19 Vaccination. Am J Cardiol. 2021 Oct 1;156:129-131. doi: 10.1016/j.amjcard.2021.06.047. Epub 2021 Jul 12. PMID: 34364657; PMCID: PMC8272970.

12: Park JY, Kim JH, Lee IJ, Kim HI, Park S, Hwang YI, Jang SH, Jung KS. COVID-19 vaccine-related interstitial lung disease: a case study. Thorax. 2021 Aug 6:thoraxjnl-2021-217609. doi: 10.1136/thoraxjnl-2021-217609. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34362838.

13: Das BB, Moskowitz WB, Taylor MB, Palmer A. Myocarditis and Pericarditis Following mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination: What Do We Know So Far? Children (Basel). 2021 Jul 18;8(7):607. doi: 10.3390/children8070607. PMID: 34356586; PMCID: PMC8305058.

14: Fanni D, Saba L, Demontis R, Gerosa C, Chighine A, Nioi M, Suri JS, Ravarino A, Cau F, Barcellona D, Botta MC, Porcu M, Scano A, Coghe F, Orr G, Van Eyken P, Gibo Y, La Nasa G, D'aloja E, Marongiu F, Faa G. Vaccine-induced severe thrombotic thrombocytopenia following COVID-19 vaccination: a report of an autoptic case and review of the literature. Eur Rev Med Pharmacol Sci. 2021 Aug;25(15):5063-5069. doi: 10.26355/eurrev_202108_26464. PMID: 34355379.

15: Andraska EA, Kulkarni R, Chaudhary M, Sachdev U. Three cases of acute venous thromboembolism in females following vaccination for COVID-19. J Vasc Surg Venous Lymphat Disord. 2021 Aug 2:S2213-333X(21)00392-9. doi: 10.1016/j.jvsv.2021.07.009. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34352418; PMCID: PMC8327605.

16: Pepe S, Gregory AT, Denniss AR. Myocarditis, Pericarditis and Cardiomyopathy After COVID-19 Vaccination. Heart Lung Circ. 2021 Oct;30(10):1425-1429. doi: 10.1016/j.hlc.2021.07.011. Epub 2021 Jul 31. PMID: 34340927; PMCID: PMC8324414.

17: Das BB, Kohli U, Ramachandran P, Nguyen HH, Greil G, Hussain T, Tandon A, Kane C, Avula S, Duru C, Hede S, Sharma K, Chowdhury D, Patel S, Mercer C, Chaudhuri NR, Patel B, Khan D, Ang JY, Asmar B, Sanchez J, Bobosky KA, Cochran CD, Gebara BM, Gonzalez Rangel IE, Krasan G, Siddiqui O, Waqas M, El-Wiher N, Freij BJ. Myopericarditis following mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination in Adolescents 12 through 18 Years of Age. J Pediatr. 2021 Jul 30:S0022-3476(21)00736-8. doi: 10.1016/j.jpeds.2021.07.044. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34339728; PMCID: PMC8321962.

18: Sokolska JM, Kurcz J, Kosmala W. Every rose has its thorns - acute myocarditis following COVID-19 vaccination. Kardiol Pol. 2021 Jul 31. doi: 10.33963/KP.a2021.0075. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34331307.

19: Boscolo Berto M, Spano G, Wagner B, Bernhard B, Hner J, Huber AT, Grni C. Takotsubo Cardiomyopathy After mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination. Heart Lung Circ. 2021 Jul 15:S1443-9506(21)01133-1. doi: 10.1016/j.hlc.2021.06.521. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34330629; PMCID: PMC8279960.

20: Tano E, San Martin S, Girgis S, Martinez-Fernandez Y, Sanchez Vegas C. Perimyocarditis in Adolescents After Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine. J Pediatric Infect Dis Soc. 2021 Jul 28:piab060. doi: 10.1093/jpids/piab060. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34319393; PMCID: PMC8344528.

21: Williams CB, Choi JI, Hosseini F, Roberts J, Ramanathan K, Ong K. Acute Myocarditis Following mRNA-1273 SARS-CoV-2 Vaccination. CJC Open. 2021 Jul 14. doi: 10.1016/j.cjco.2021.07.008. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34308326; PMCID: PMC8278869.

22: Bozkurt B, Kamat I, Hotez PJ. Myocarditis With COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines. Circulation. 2021 Aug 10;144(6):471-484. doi: 10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.121.056135. Epub 2021 Jul 20. PMID: 34281357; PMCID: PMC8340726.

23: Singh B, Kaur P, Cedeno L, Brahimi T, Patel P, Virk H, Shamoon F, Bikkina M. COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine and Myocarditis. Eur J Case Rep Intern Med. 2021 Jun 14;8(7):002681. doi: 10.12890/2021_002681. PMID: 34268277; PMCID: PMC8276934.

24: Shaw KE, Cavalcante JL, Han BK, Gössl M. Possible Association Between COVID-19 Vaccine and Myocarditis: Clinical and CMR Findings. JACC Cardiovasc Imaging. 2021 Sep;14(9):1856-1861. doi: 10.1016/j.jcmg.2021.06.002. Epub 2021 Jun 16. PMID: 34246586; PMCID: PMC8245050.

25: Al-Ahmad M, Al-Rasheed M, Shalaby NAB. Acquired thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura with possible association with AstraZeneca-Oxford COVID-19 vaccine. EJHaem. 2021 May 18:10.1002/jha2.219. doi: 10.1002/jha2.219. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34226899; PMCID: PMC8242544.

26: Deb A, Abdelmalek J, Iwuji K, Nugent K. Acute Myocardial Injury Following COVID-19 Vaccination: A Case Report and Review of Current Evidence from Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System Database. J Prim Care Community Health. 2021 Jan-Dec;12:21501327211029230. doi: 10.1177/21501327211029230. PMID: 34219532; PMCID: PMC8255555.

27: Lee E, Chew NW, Ng P, Yeo TJ. A spectrum of cardiac manifestations post Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccination. QJM. 2021 Jun 30:hcab177. doi: 10.1093/qjmed/hcab177. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34191024.

28: Habib MB, Hamamyh T, Elyas A, Altermanini M, Elhassan M. Acute myocarditis following administration of BNT162b2 vaccine. IDCases. 2021 Jun 16;25:e01197. doi: 10.1016/j.idcr.2021.e01197. PMID: 34189042; PMCID: PMC8220234.

29: Kim HW, Jenista ER, Wendell DC, Azevedo CF, Campbell MJ, Darty SN, Parker MA, Kim RJ. Patients With Acute Myocarditis Following mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination. JAMA Cardiol. 2021 Jun 29:e212828. doi: 10.1001/jamacardio.2021.2828. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34185046; PMCID: PMC8243258.
TX_AG_10
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AG
I got my first Moderna shot two weeks ago today. About 3 days ago, I started to notice that I couldn't quite catch my breath. Almost like I couldn't take a big enough breath to resume a normal breathing cycle. This is still going on today.

It wasn't until 2 nights ago that I was laying in bed and thought it could be myocarditis. My BPM was 90 and I was pretty consistent on taking frequent deep breaths. The funny thing is I slept great that night (and pretty much every night) and I've never been woken up from being out of breath. I don't have any chest pain nor have I ever been gasping for air. Heck, I even mowed the yard yesterday and was never out of breath or exhausted. I really only notice the shortness of breath/taking lots of deep breaths when I'm sedentary.

I will probably call my PCP today, but figured I'd run it by the Texags MD's first . Thanks!
KidDoc
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AG
TX_AG_10 said:

I got my first Moderna shot two weeks ago today. About 3 days ago, I started to notice that I couldn't quite catch my breath. Almost like I couldn't take a big enough breath to resume a normal breathing cycle. This is still going on today.

It wasn't until 2 nights ago that I was laying in bed and thought it could be myocarditis. My BPM was 90 and I was pretty consistent on taking frequent deep breaths. The funny thing is I slept great that night (and pretty much every night) and I've never been woken up from being out of breath. I don't have any chest pain nor have I ever been gasping for air. Heck, I even mowed the yard yesterday and was never out of breath or exhausted. I really only notice the shortness of breath/taking lots of deep breaths when I'm sedentary.

I will probably call my PCP today, but figured I'd run it by the Texags MD's first . Thanks!
Sounds like it, a basic blood test for troponins will be the screening test. If that is positive then it is on to an echo.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
TX_AG_10
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AG
I appreciate the quick response KidDoc. I'll call today to see about a screening test.

Assuming there are troponins and then an echo, is it just medication afterwards? Just trying to get an idea of what to expect. I'm assuming this goes away after time even without treatment? As with all things surrounding COVID, sometimes I don't know what to believe!
KidDoc
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AG
TX_AG_10 said:

I appreciate the quick response KidDoc. I'll call today to see about a screening test.

Assuming there are troponins and then an echo, is it just medication afterwards? Just trying to get an idea of what to expect. I'm assuming this goes away after time even without treatment? As with all things surrounding COVID, sometimes I don't know what to believe!
It gets complicated after that. Generally NSAID (naproxen) only for mild cases. If you have an arrhythmia you will need a med for that until it goes away, usually a beta blocker. If you have actual cardiac dysfunction there are medicines to help your heart function as well although that is more rare and usually improves with time - 77% of myocarditis from COVID vaccine are fully recovered per the last CDC report a few weeks ago.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
TX_AG_10
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AG
Well my Dr. ended up throwing the kitchen sink at it. Ended up doing blood work (only for c-reactive protein), EKG and chest x-ray. All came back in the normal ranges. I still have the shortness of breath. With that being said, it does have me hesitant about a second dose if this is indeed a reaction from the first does. It's really annoying. My Dr. did prescribe an albuterol inhaler to help with it in the meantime.

I don't know if this has to do with allergies as I've had some nasal congestion (but I'm able to control that with meds). Hopefully it goes away soon.
petebaker
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[https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1436032609033797632]
Delete the extra web stuff link after the tweet number
tomtomdrumdrum
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AG
KidDoc said:

This is the kind of data I have been worried about seeing. In healthy teens I think the risk of current doses of mRNA vaccine equals or exceeds the risk of natural infection. No other country is pushing this age to get vaccine.

Now teens with any health issue at all, it is worth the low risk of myocarditis.
KidDoc, I've seen you post in a few threads saying the risk of vaccine-caused myocarditis in teens makes you think they shouldn't be vaccinated, and it seems like you're always comparing that risk to the risk of general hospitalization from covid.

Are you also considering the risk of covid-caused myocarditis? That seems like the more appropriate comparison. What numbers specifically are informing your opinion?

Also, what is the risk of teens with myocarditis being hospitalized? Maybe that's the better thing to compare against covid hospitalization rates. If it's not, I'm interested to know why.
spherical
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AG
petebaker said:


[https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1436032609033797632]
Delete the extra web stuff link after the tweet number


https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/dumpster-diving-in-vaers-doctors-fall-into-the-same-trap-as-antivaxxers/
Picadillo
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I'd be more worried about clotting and stroke than myocarditis, GB syndrome, etc. Recommend full disclosure (which you probably won't get) so you'll have research yourself.
Fitch
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AG
Had Covid back in the spring of '20 right near the start. Got through it basically in a week, but didn't get back to 100% for maybe a month. Anyways, at some point a couple weeks after initially recovering I noticed heart racing at strange moments (sitting at desk or on the couch or laying in bed) and becoming much more conscious of having to take deep breaths. Took months, really all of last year, for that to settle out. Still get it periodically, with resting rate and BP jumping into pre-hypertension range. Here lately have had odd nerve irritations.

Thinking I might get that checked out at this point.

33 y/o male, great shape, run 4-10 miles/week + gym 3x/week
KidDoc
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AG
tomtomdrumdrum said:

KidDoc said:

This is the kind of data I have been worried about seeing. In healthy teens I think the risk of current doses of mRNA vaccine equals or exceeds the risk of natural infection. No other country is pushing this age to get vaccine.

Now teens with any health issue at all, it is worth the low risk of myocarditis.
KidDoc, I've seen you post in a few threads saying the risk of vaccine-caused myocarditis in teens makes you think they shouldn't be vaccinated, and it seems like you're always comparing that risk to the risk of general hospitalization from covid.

Are you also considering the risk of covid-caused myocarditis? That seems like the more appropriate comparison. What numbers specifically are informing your opinion?

Also, what is the risk of teens with myocarditis being hospitalized? Maybe that's the better thing to compare against covid hospitalization rates. If it's not, I'm interested to know why.
Per the CDC 90% of the myocarditis due to vaccine are hospitalized and 23% have not yet recovered full cardiac function, this was reported by them in late August with roughly 2000 cases. It is hard to find any real data on the rate of myocarditis due to COVID infection although it is a well established complication. I am big on the "do no harm" part of being a physician and if a healthy teen is more likely to land in the hospital following vaccine relative to the actual infection then I'm not going to advise that vaccine.

It is VERY rare for a teen with no health risks to be hospitalized due to COVID, almost unheard of honestly.

I will be surprised if we don't see a modified dosing schedule for children and teens in the near future due to this dangerous adverse effect. It is why you haven't seen formal approval for young kids yet by the FDA. Efficacy is not the issue, adverse effects are an issue. There is a reason NO other country is vaccinating children at this time, doesn't that seem odd?

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tomtomdrumdrum
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AG
KidDoc said:

tomtomdrumdrum said:

KidDoc said:

This is the kind of data I have been worried about seeing. In healthy teens I think the risk of current doses of mRNA vaccine equals or exceeds the risk of natural infection. No other country is pushing this age to get vaccine.

Now teens with any health issue at all, it is worth the low risk of myocarditis.
KidDoc, I've seen you post in a few threads saying the risk of vaccine-caused myocarditis in teens makes you think they shouldn't be vaccinated, and it seems like you're always comparing that risk to the risk of general hospitalization from covid.

Are you also considering the risk of covid-caused myocarditis? That seems like the more appropriate comparison. What numbers specifically are informing your opinion?

Also, what is the risk of teens with myocarditis being hospitalized? Maybe that's the better thing to compare against covid hospitalization rates. If it's not, I'm interested to know why.
Per the CDC 90% of the myocarditis due to vaccine are hospitalized and 23% have not yet recovered full cardiac function, this was reported by them in late August with roughly 2000 cases. It is hard to find any real data on the rate of myocarditis due to COVID infection although it is a well established complication. I am big on the "do no harm" part of being a physician and if a healthy teen is more likely to land in the hospital following vaccine relative to the actual infection then I'm not going to advise that vaccine.

It is VERY rare for a teen with no health risks to be hospitalized due to COVID, almost unheard of honestly.

I will be surprised if we don't see a modified dosing schedule for children and teens in the near future due to this dangerous adverse effect. It is why you haven't seen formal approval for young kids yet by the FDA. Efficacy is not the issue, adverse effects are an issue. There is a reason NO other country is vaccinating children at this time, doesn't that seem odd?



Here's some: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm
KidDoc
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AG
tomtomdrumdrum said:

KidDoc said:

tomtomdrumdrum said:

KidDoc said:

This is the kind of data I have been worried about seeing. In healthy teens I think the risk of current doses of mRNA vaccine equals or exceeds the risk of natural infection. No other country is pushing this age to get vaccine.

Now teens with any health issue at all, it is worth the low risk of myocarditis.
KidDoc, I've seen you post in a few threads saying the risk of vaccine-caused myocarditis in teens makes you think they shouldn't be vaccinated, and it seems like you're always comparing that risk to the risk of general hospitalization from covid.

Are you also considering the risk of covid-caused myocarditis? That seems like the more appropriate comparison. What numbers specifically are informing your opinion?

Also, what is the risk of teens with myocarditis being hospitalized? Maybe that's the better thing to compare against covid hospitalization rates. If it's not, I'm interested to know why.
Per the CDC 90% of the myocarditis due to vaccine are hospitalized and 23% have not yet recovered full cardiac function, this was reported by them in late August with roughly 2000 cases. It is hard to find any real data on the rate of myocarditis due to COVID infection although it is a well established complication. I am big on the "do no harm" part of being a physician and if a healthy teen is more likely to land in the hospital following vaccine relative to the actual infection then I'm not going to advise that vaccine.

It is VERY rare for a teen with no health risks to be hospitalized due to COVID, almost unheard of honestly.

I will be surprised if we don't see a modified dosing schedule for children and teens in the near future due to this dangerous adverse effect. It is why you haven't seen formal approval for young kids yet by the FDA. Efficacy is not the issue, adverse effects are an issue. There is a reason NO other country is vaccinating children at this time, doesn't that seem odd?



Here's some: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm
Thanks for the link. That was pretty early data relative to the delta wave so case numbers are much higher recently in young patients and I have not seen any data suggesting a significant number of myocarditis cases. It is interesting that that data review showed 4560 cases of myocarditis from all causes while the current CDC vaccine related cases is nearing 2000.

ETA: they are also not teens : "patients with myocarditis were slightly older than patients without myocarditis (median age = 54 years versus 50 years) "
I don't think anyone is debating if 54 year olds should or should not get COVID vaccine, at least I'm not. I'm concerned about healthy teens.
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Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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KidDoc said:

tomtomdrumdrum said:

KidDoc said:

This is the kind of data I have been worried about seeing. In healthy teens I think the risk of current doses of mRNA vaccine equals or exceeds the risk of natural infection. No other country is pushing this age to get vaccine.

Now teens with any health issue at all, it is worth the low risk of myocarditis.
KidDoc, I've seen you post in a few threads saying the risk of vaccine-caused myocarditis in teens makes you think they shouldn't be vaccinated, and it seems like you're always comparing that risk to the risk of general hospitalization from covid.

Are you also considering the risk of covid-caused myocarditis? That seems like the more appropriate comparison. What numbers specifically are informing your opinion?

Also, what is the risk of teens with myocarditis being hospitalized? Maybe that's the better thing to compare against covid hospitalization rates. If it's not, I'm interested to know why.
Per the CDC 90% of the myocarditis due to vaccine are hospitalized and 23% have not yet recovered full cardiac function, this was reported by them in late August with roughly 2000 cases. It is hard to find any real data on the rate of myocarditis due to COVID infection although it is a well established complication. I am big on the "do no harm" part of being a physician and if a healthy teen is more likely to land in the hospital following vaccine relative to the actual infection then I'm not going to advise that vaccine.

It is VERY rare for a teen with no health risks to be hospitalized due to COVID, almost unheard of honestly.

I will be surprised if we don't see a modified dosing schedule for children and teens in the near future due to this dangerous adverse effect. It is why you haven't seen formal approval for young kids yet by the FDA. Efficacy is not the issue, adverse effects are an issue. There is a reason NO other country is vaccinating children at this time, doesn't that seem odd?


I've seen a couple. I've yet to see a single case of vaccine associated complications requiring hospitalization (for both children and adults).

EDIT: Skipped over the qualifier in that sentence. The couple I saw were obese, asthma, and obese.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
KidDoc
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AG
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

KidDoc said:

tomtomdrumdrum said:

KidDoc said:

This is the kind of data I have been worried about seeing. In healthy teens I think the risk of current doses of mRNA vaccine equals or exceeds the risk of natural infection. No other country is pushing this age to get vaccine.

Now teens with any health issue at all, it is worth the low risk of myocarditis.
KidDoc, I've seen you post in a few threads saying the risk of vaccine-caused myocarditis in teens makes you think they shouldn't be vaccinated, and it seems like you're always comparing that risk to the risk of general hospitalization from covid.

Are you also considering the risk of covid-caused myocarditis? That seems like the more appropriate comparison. What numbers specifically are informing your opinion?

Also, what is the risk of teens with myocarditis being hospitalized? Maybe that's the better thing to compare against covid hospitalization rates. If it's not, I'm interested to know why.
Per the CDC 90% of the myocarditis due to vaccine are hospitalized and 23% have not yet recovered full cardiac function, this was reported by them in late August with roughly 2000 cases. It is hard to find any real data on the rate of myocarditis due to COVID infection although it is a well established complication. I am big on the "do no harm" part of being a physician and if a healthy teen is more likely to land in the hospital following vaccine relative to the actual infection then I'm not going to advise that vaccine.

It is VERY rare for a teen with no health risks to be hospitalized due to COVID, almost unheard of honestly.

I will be surprised if we don't see a modified dosing schedule for children and teens in the near future due to this dangerous adverse effect. It is why you haven't seen formal approval for young kids yet by the FDA. Efficacy is not the issue, adverse effects are an issue. There is a reason NO other country is vaccinating children at this time, doesn't that seem odd?


I've seen a couple. I've yet to see a single case of vaccine associated complications requiring hospitalization (for both children and adults).

EDIT: Skipped over the qualifier in that sentence. The couple I saw were obese, asthma, and obese.
Exactly. I 100% support and encourage obese, heck even overweight, teens to get vax. It is the healthy athletic teen I hedge on. My son is a 22 year old with Type 1 DM for 14 years, he got vaxed early.
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KidDoc
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AG
https://www.kbtx.com/2021/09/20/pfizer-says-covid-19-vaccine-works-kids-ages-5-11/

Lower dose or novavax is going to be the answer for teens and kids when this is all done in a year or so.
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KidDoc
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Since all of the myocarditis deniers don't believe this dumb Aggie pediatrician, here is a cardiologist trying to figure out the rate of vaccine related myocarditis.

Vaccine-Induced Myocarditis Concerns Demand Respect, Not Absolutism (medscape.com)

Some highlights for people that don't want to log into medscape:

The first is slide 13 of the benefit-risk presentation, which shows the risk for hospitalization in a young person in the last 3 months from COVID-19 as less than 1 in 100,000. The other comes from slide 27 of the Shimabukuro talk, which shows the rate of myocarditis in 12- to 17-year-old boys after the second dose of mRNA as 132/2,039,871, or about 6/100,000.

------------------------------
The mRNA vaccines are so effective at preventing severe COVID-19 disease that US citizens need not depend on others for protection. If someone wants to be protected, they can simply get the shots. Recent reports from Israel on the rise of cases due to the Delta variant support my point: these were cases , not hospitalizations.

The second problem with the societal-good argument is that the signal of myocarditis from the vaccine is strong enough to be more than correlation. I am not an ethicist, but it seems dubious to force young people to expose themselves to a risk for an unknown benefit to society. Once again, data from Israel are instructive: cases and hospitalizations plummeted earlier in the year without mandating vaccinations in the young.

Other countries see the need for nuance in vaccinating the young: advisors in the United Kingdom have decided not to support vaccination for kids under 18. In Germany, the Standing Vaccination Commission advised that only children with pre-existing conditions receive the vaccine. And the Dutch health counsel has invited kids with pre-existing conditions or those living in a household with a family member who cannot be vaccinated to receive the mRNA vaccine.

----------------------------------------

Benefits of Waiting
The recent FDA presentation on myocarditis provided three clear signals. There were many more cases after the second shot; males were more often affected; and the age groups with the highest incidence were 16- to 24-year-olds.

Given the extremely low levels of circulating SARS-CoV2 in the United States, public health experts have time to consider different options for young people: would one shot (especially in younger males) offer a better benefit-harm calculus? Should we study lower doses in children? Should we test young adults for signs of recovered infection and delay vaccination in those with natural immunity?

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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