MANY 'deep red' states, traditionally southern, have demographic makeups that contribute negatively to poverty, education, and teen pregnancy. You can put the pieces together.CondensedFoggyAggie said:astros4545 said:I have stopped caring about communists, which is a way worse thing to be than obeseGumby said:Fenrir said:
And we have had multiple people claim to not care what happens to unvaccinated people. Seems like those individuals have a similar lack of empathy.
It's a bit like caring about people who smoke or drink or do drugs or choose unhealthy lifestyles. You can obsess over their choices and try to force and mandate them to take care of their health or you can say well they've made their choices, there is not much else I can do.
It's like seeing a morbidly obese person eating fast food. It's sad and unfortunate but what good does it do to work yourself into a frenzy over it?
Interesting thing to say since those 'communist' states have powerhouse economies, have tons of great schools, doing tons of research, and smart people are flocking to them. While the vast majority of deep red states line the bottom 20 worst in terms of poverty, education, health, mortality rates, teen pregnancy rates and on and on and on.
Not to mention red states pay less in taxes compared to the benefits they receive from the government, like good communists.
Throwing that out before both our posts get deleted for pretending this is F16.
Every few days hearing of unvaccinated people close to me dying . . .
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Captain Pablo said:dubberage said:
Common theme the last few weeks. Close to me meaning no direct family members (we're all vaccinated), but friends of friends or parents of friends. conversations go like this.
Oh, "do you know so and so's mom got covid and died". Was she vaccinated? "No". Why not? "well she just didn't feel right about". So late 60's with usual health issues and thought a vaccine would do more harm than good. A few days later. "So and so" is in the hospital so that is why he isn't at work today. Vaccinated? No. Mid 50's average to below average health. A few days later. Another friend of my parents is in hospital with covid pneumonia. Early 70's. Vaccinated? "No". Why? Didn't believe in it.
I totally believe everyone has a right to decide one way or another on the vaccine, but come on people. If you are 50 plus and refuse to get vaccinated I just don't understand. My friend's 74 mother in law said "well, i heard it can make you infertile, and possibly give you cancer". Wtf? So at 74 your worried about fertility and getting cancer from something, and you smoked earlier in life?
Friend of mine works for major Houston hospital. All Covid patients in their hospital are 99.2% unvaccinated.
Oh, and to the guy sitting behind us at the game on Saturday. If you have a raging cough, stay home MF and watch it on TV. I know "he has a right come to the game, etc.". Yeah he does, but come on people.
Are you sure about that number? That sounds awfully high, And I doubt its accuracy
Yeah most I've seen have been right about 94-96%.
mkorzo said:
No, no. He's waaaaaay effing off. Read it again.
"It's impossible to care about 10s of millions of anonymous, random people."
That's a fairly outrageous statement.
I don't want to get another ban but there is a famous quote along these lines
Quote:
a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic
Granted it isn't from someone I would normally quote. But the point is valid. People have a limited capacity for compassion
I was thinking of the same quote when reading those comments. At first glance, it seems outrageous I guess. But, humans don't have the capacity to truly feel empathy for vast numbers of people. You just can't. If you felt the same about all of those deaths as you would when you're friend or family member dies, we'd all be so paralyzed by grief that society would shut down on its own. Anyone who says that they do "care" about 10's of millions of anonymous, random people are deluding themselves.Duncan Idaho said:mkorzo said:
No, no. He's waaaaaay effing off. Read it again.
"It's impossible to care about 10s of millions of anonymous, random people."
That's a fairly outrageous statement.
I don't want to get another ban but there is a famous quote along these linesQuote:
a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic
Granted it isn't from someone I would normally quote. But the point is valid. People have a limited capacity for compassion
__________________________________________________
De Omnibus Dubitandum
De Omnibus Dubitandum
Most cases and hospitalizations in Israel are vaxxed by a large margin. Pfizer. Israel being amongst the most vaxxed nations on earth. They are 3-4 months ahead of us on achieving high vax rates. And we are now seeing more breakthrough cases.
As posted on another thread, because Israel is so heavily vaccinated, the percent of hospitalized patients who are vaccinated is misleading, and it doesn't prove that the vaccine doesn't work. 90% of Israelis over 60 are vaccinated. So, if half the patients in the hospital over 60 are unvaccinated, that means that you're several times more likely to get hospitalized if you're unvaccinated. Just pointing at how many patients are vaccinated is misleading.Picadillo said:
Most cases and hospitalizations in Israel are vaxxed by a large margin. Pfizer. Israel being amongst the most vaxxed nations on earth. They are 3-4 months ahead of us on achieving high vax rates. And we are now seeing more breakthrough cases.
__________________________________________________
De Omnibus Dubitandum
De Omnibus Dubitandum
Not to mention, Israel topped out at 1323 hospitalizations during this wave, and are coming down. 210 ICU. This would equate to about 47k hospitalizations, and 7500 ICU visits. We hit 95k and 25k respectively. So that would be a big difference.(They could be healthier, age would also matter, just pointing out some quick math)
The vaccines help. There really isn't much to debate otherwise. Still 100% opposed to mandating them, but I digress.
The vaccines help. There really isn't much to debate otherwise. Still 100% opposed to mandating them, but I digress.
Yep, agree 100%.dubberage said:
He works for UT Health. This is what he told me last night. Okay, so let's say he is wrong and its 90% instead of 99%. Is 90% high enough for you to maybe think it has something to do with being vaccinated or not? Or its a conspiracy perpetuated by the government?
Look, I don't care about one side or the other, but when I see relatively healthy, or average health people in their 50's, 60's and 70's dying due to Covid, and I know them, it makes me sad for their families. Because you will always wonder or second guess if getting a simple vaccine would have saved their lives. Hundreds of millions of people vaccinated but you believe some internet post by some doctor that this could cause issues in 5-10 years. Well, I'd rather live for 5-10 more years than die next month.
I've heard numbers out of Israel (95% in ICU's are vaccinated or double or triple jabbed).
Also you can do some general searches for morbidity rates and put 2 and 2 together. Vermont for example is the most vaccinated state. Their death rate this year amongst 40-49 year olds, is 10x what it was last year. We still have a few months to go!
So not really close to you at all?dubberage said:
Common theme the last few weeks. Close to me meaning no direct family members (we're all vaccinated), but friends of friends or parents of friends.
I still don't know a single person dead from covid and only one that ended up in the hospital
"This claim has been shot down by Public Health England and most fact checkers."
Your statement is false
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/wissen/delta-variant-not-more-dangerous-for-vaccinated-people,Sg5VJIM
"A total of 123,620 Delta cases were detected during this period. 10,834 of those infected had already received two doses of vaccine, while 71,932 were unvaccinated. Of the double-vaccinated, 118 had died, compared to 92 of the unvaccinated"
This article, which tries to prove your point fails miserably. The double vaccinated deaths are far more with fewer cases. It argues age and health are the biggest factor. Well duh, of course age and health are the biggest factor. At least the vaccinated rate of infection was lower. As Israel and Gibraltar show, high vaccination rates don't stop the virus or death. However, natural immunity works 13 times better than the virus and yet it gets completely ignored, just as the President ignored it yesterday.
Your statement is false
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/wissen/delta-variant-not-more-dangerous-for-vaccinated-people,Sg5VJIM
"A total of 123,620 Delta cases were detected during this period. 10,834 of those infected had already received two doses of vaccine, while 71,932 were unvaccinated. Of the double-vaccinated, 118 had died, compared to 92 of the unvaccinated"
This article, which tries to prove your point fails miserably. The double vaccinated deaths are far more with fewer cases. It argues age and health are the biggest factor. Well duh, of course age and health are the biggest factor. At least the vaccinated rate of infection was lower. As Israel and Gibraltar show, high vaccination rates don't stop the virus or death. However, natural immunity works 13 times better than the virus and yet it gets completely ignored, just as the President ignored it yesterday.
Captain Pablo said:West Point Aggie said:Captain Pablo said:dubberage said:
Common theme the last few weeks. Close to me meaning no direct family members (we're all vaccinated), but friends of friends or parents of friends. conversations go like this.
Oh, "do you know so and so's mom got covid and died". Was she vaccinated? "No". Why not? "well she just didn't feel right about". So late 60's with usual health issues and thought a vaccine would do more harm than good. A few days later. "So and so" is in the hospital so that is why he isn't at work today. Vaccinated? No. Mid 50's average to below average health. A few days later. Another friend of my parents is in hospital with covid pneumonia. Early 70's. Vaccinated? "No". Why? Didn't believe in it.
I totally believe everyone has a right to decide one way or another on the vaccine, but come on people. If you are 50 plus and refuse to get vaccinated I just don't understand. My friend's 74 mother in law said "well, i heard it can make you infertile, and possibly give you cancer". Wtf? So at 74 your worried about fertility and getting cancer from something, and you smoked earlier in life?
Friend of mine works for major Houston hospital. All Covid patients in their hospital are 99.2% unvaccinated.
Oh, and to the guy sitting behind us at the game on Saturday. If you have a raging cough, stay home MF and watch it on TV. I know "he has a right come to the game, etc.". Yeah he does, but come on people.
Are you sure about that number? That sounds awfully high, And I doubt its accuracy
Seems suspect, doesn't it?
Yeah I don't buy it
As someone who knows two fully vaxxed relatively healthy people in their 60's who just recovered from rough cases of Covid (one had to do a stint in ICU with severe pneumonia and spent weeks in the hospital and doesn't look the same and prob will never be the same), I do not buy that for a second.
Agthatbuilds said:
I still don't know a single person dead from covid and only one that ended up in the hospital
Finally got news of my first this week. Old buddy's mother in law. No clue if she was vaxxed or not. Am curious but not curious enough to ask.
Before that, it was only Pelayo, prominent poster from another Texags board.
It's only a matter of time.
Just no
But it doesn't take away from his initial point. He's 100% correct that the people dying aren't vaccinated individuals. Nor being hospitalized. There are billions who've been vaccinated. It is the most studied and perhaps understood vaccination in world history. And there isn't some grand conspiracy to withhold the "side effects" this vaccine may have. I love the reasons given by the 74 year old is infertility. LOL. Ok. Hell, the "cancer" excuse. Show me actual evidence of this. There isn't. I get that the many in power are just using the vaccine and masking as political tools and agree that this is a huge part of the problem.Captain Pablo said:dubberage said:
Common theme the last few weeks. Close to me meaning no direct family members (we're all vaccinated), but friends of friends or parents of friends. conversations go like this.
Oh, "do you know so and so's mom got covid and died". Was she vaccinated? "No". Why not? "well she just didn't feel right about". So late 60's with usual health issues and thought a vaccine would do more harm than good. A few days later. "So and so" is in the hospital so that is why he isn't at work today. Vaccinated? No. Mid 50's average to below average health. A few days later. Another friend of my parents is in hospital with covid pneumonia. Early 70's. Vaccinated? "No". Why? Didn't believe in it.
I totally believe everyone has a right to decide one way or another on the vaccine, "but come on people. If you are 50 plus and refuse to get vaccinated I just don't understand. My friend's 74 mother in law said "well, i heard it can make you infertile, and possibly give you cancer". Wtf? So at 74 your worried about fertility and getting cancer from something, and you smoked earlier in life?
Friend of mine works for major Houston hospital. All Covid patients in their hospital are 99.2% unvaccinated.
Oh, and to the guy sitting behind us at the game on Saturday. If you have a raging cough, stay home MF and watch it on TV. I know "he has a right come to the game, etc.". Yeah he does, but come on people.
Among arguments to persuade, I'd have to say "but come on people" is about the least effective
But hey don't let that stop you
"Come on, man" on the other hand ………..
Some of those dying are fully vaccinated. Not many. Looks to be around the 3000 mark.
But, the vaccine was never understood to be 100% full proof. Just wanted to clarify the comment.
But, the vaccine was never understood to be 100% full proof. Just wanted to clarify the comment.
SoupNazi2001 said:eric76 said:There is also the ultimate immunity -- you get it once and you can never get it again. It's called death.SoupNazi2001 said:Duncan Idaho said:
More compelling than any I've heard from the other side.
Natural immunity
Very strange comment.
He gets off to the fear porn it seems.
I don't recall providing any links?Quote:
"This claim has been shot down by Public Health England and most fact checkers."
Your statement is false
You are still missing the very basic points if I understood what you were trying to say. No one is thinking of natural immunity because the debate is over the effectiveness of vaccines based on this PHE data - vaxxed vs unvaxxed.
I suppose there is a crowd out there ready to roll the dice on getting COVID via natural immunity and then ultimately fighting off reinfection but that is not relevant to what we are discussing here.
Anyway, here are some links:
Post misrepresents data from Public Health England report on vaccine efficacy
Fact Check-Data shows COVID-19 vaccines have saved thousands of lives; contrary claims have taken a PHE report out of context
Within those links, the PHE spokesperson is trying to communicate the obvious fact of:
Quote:
"The data should be interpreted taking into consideration the context of very high vaccine coverage in the UK population. Even with a highly effective vaccine, it is expected that a large proportion of cases would occur in vaccinated individuals, simply because a larger proportion of the population are vaccinated than unvaccinated," a spokesperson for PHE told Reuters via email.
Windy City Ag said:
I suppose there is a crowd out there ready to roll the dice on getting COVID via natural immunity and then ultimately fighting off reinfection but that is not relevant to what we are discussing here.
There's a whole damn lot of us who had covid and recovered before there was a vaccine and have immunity but it's being almost completely ignored in these mandates.
Agthatbuilds said:
It's only a matter of time.
Yep, F China. But what are ya gonna do? It is what it is. Almost lost a fully vaxxed family friend in recent weeks and you can tell he will never be the same. Weeks in ICU/hospital with severe pneumonia. Fully f-ing vaxxed.
"I don't recall providing any links?"
Never said you did, you need to reread what I wrote because your response in out of context.
Never said you did, you need to reread what I wrote because your response in out of context.
My argument for not getting vax'ed?
Simple. My risk analysis is that covidians pose more of a risk to me than the virus.
Virus: less than 0.5% fatality risk
Covidians: facilitating Federal operation beyond the constitutional framework which is the destruction of America as we knew her.
I fear the people on this board far more than I do a lethal virus.
Simple. My risk analysis is that covidians pose more of a risk to me than the virus.
Virus: less than 0.5% fatality risk
Covidians: facilitating Federal operation beyond the constitutional framework which is the destruction of America as we knew her.
I fear the people on this board far more than I do a lethal virus.
Capitol Ag said:
It is the most studied and perhaps understood vaccination in world history.
Ummm no.
AgsMyDude said:Captain Positivity said:
I'm a nurse. I work in the hospital. Most of my shifts are in the Covid units. The 92% unvaccinated figure is pretty consistent with what I'm seeing.
We know people can still get infected despite being vaccinated. Vaccinated people are not getting severe disease at the same rate. All available data points to that. I wish this was the focus of messaging all along.
The thing about this Delta wave that's really getting to me this time is the age difference between now and over the winter. Over the winter, it was probably 70% people over the age of 65. Now, it's basically inverted. We had to intubate a 30 year old yesterday. Had a 22 year old on the brink. And yes, for those of you who like to ask, most of these younger people are not exactly healthy to begin with in terms of body weight. People over the age of 75 are less than 10% of our Covid patients right now. One of the primary reasons is that the vast majority of old folks in our area got vaccinated.
I'm never going to criticize somebody for choosing not to take a vaccine, especially one developed so quickly. My job is just to provide accurate information as best I can and let people make their own choices. I wish more people would take it.
Are those young folk vaxxed?
Curious as I've seen very few anecdotal stories of people in that range on the brink if vaccinated.
Unvaccinated. Several months ago we all knew and understood Covid could get obese young people but not at this rate. For the most part with Alpha even relatively unhealthy young people did OK. Delta is hammering unhealthy people under 40. The math has changed. Age isn't as protective in those populations any more.
txaggie_08 said:Capitol Ag said:
It is the most studied and perhaps understood vaccination in world history.
Ummm no.
In the short term, can't think of one more watched. Long term: There hasn't been a long term.
Duncan Idaho said:mkorzo said:
No, no. He's waaaaaay effing off. Read it again.
"It's impossible to care about 10s of millions of anonymous, random people."
That's a fairly outrageous statement.
I don't want to get another ban but there is a famous quote along these linesQuote:
a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic
Granted it isn't from someone I would normally quote. But the point is valid. People have a limited capacity for
Just like the flu vaccine, these COVID vaccines have a seasonal window of duration for being effective to stop severe illness. Every person that has a symptomatic infection that spreads this thing is an opportunity to mutate and weaken the current vaccine effectiveness. What is amazing about the COVID vaccines are how they are so damn effective to stop infection period.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm#howeffective
I would argue that it is in the best interest of public health to get as many people immunized as soon possible to limit these opportunities for spread and mutation opportunity. The fuse has been lit and it is only a matter of time before we start seeing more hospitalizations even amongst previous infected or vaccinated. It is hard to gauge that timeline, but there is a timeline since the virus is endemic to the population.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/how-long-will-coronavirus-vaccine-last
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm#howeffective
I would argue that it is in the best interest of public health to get as many people immunized as soon possible to limit these opportunities for spread and mutation opportunity. The fuse has been lit and it is only a matter of time before we start seeing more hospitalizations even amongst previous infected or vaccinated. It is hard to gauge that timeline, but there is a timeline since the virus is endemic to the population.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/how-long-will-coronavirus-vaccine-last
GMaster0 said:
Just like the flu vaccine, these COVID vaccines have a seasonal window of duration for being effective to stop severe illness. Every person that has a symptomatic infection that spreads this thing is an opportunity to mutate and weaken the current vaccine effectiveness. What is amazing about the COVID vaccines are how they are so damn effective to stop infection period.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm#howeffective
I would argue that it is in the best interest of public health to get as many people immunized as soon possible to limit these opportunities for spread and mutation opportunity. The fuse has been lit and it is only a matter of time before we start seeing more hospitalizations even amongst previous infected or vaccinated. It is hard to gauge that timeline, but there is a timeline since the virus is endemic to the population.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/how-long-will-coronavirus-vaccine-last
There are so many flaws in this. The vaccinated are still contracting and spreading Covid. They're probably the worst spreaders because a lot of them are asymptomatic.
The vaccines are leaky, meaning that the vaccinated are getting sick and the virus is mutating in a way to strengthen itself against the vaccines.
The vaccines are basically a therapeutic at this point. You're already seeing increased hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated.
txaggie_08 said:GMaster0 said:
Just like the flu vaccine, these COVID vaccines have a seasonal window of duration for being effective to stop severe illness. Every person that has a symptomatic infection that spreads this thing is an opportunity to mutate and weaken the current vaccine effectiveness. What is amazing about the COVID vaccines are how they are so damn effective to stop infection period.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm#howeffective
I would argue that it is in the best interest of public health to get as many people immunized as soon possible to limit these opportunities for spread and mutation opportunity. The fuse has been lit and it is only a matter of time before we start seeing more hospitalizations even amongst previous infected or vaccinated. It is hard to gauge that timeline, but there is a timeline since the virus is endemic to the population.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/how-long-will-coronavirus-vaccine-last
There are so many flaws in this. The vaccinated are still contracting and spreading Covid. They're probably the worst spreaders because a lot of them are asymptomatic.
The vaccines are leaky, meaning that the vaccinated are getting sick and the virus is mutating in a way to strengthen itself against the vaccines.
The vaccines are basically a therapeutic at this point. You're already seeing increased hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated.
Absolutely none of what you said is true. The prevalence of variants is overwhelmingly driven by the volume and duration of infections. More, longer infections = more viral replication and more incidence of chance mutations that may or may not evade prior immunity. Without question, the vaccines reduce both the incidence and duration of those infections.
Diyala Nick said:txaggie_08 said:GMaster0 said:
Just like the flu vaccine, these COVID vaccines have a seasonal window of duration for being effective to stop severe illness. Every person that has a symptomatic infection that spreads this thing is an opportunity to mutate and weaken the current vaccine effectiveness. What is amazing about the COVID vaccines are how they are so damn effective to stop infection period.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm#howeffective
I would argue that it is in the best interest of public health to get as many people immunized as soon possible to limit these opportunities for spread and mutation opportunity. The fuse has been lit and it is only a matter of time before we start seeing more hospitalizations even amongst previous infected or vaccinated. It is hard to gauge that timeline, but there is a timeline since the virus is endemic to the population.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/how-long-will-coronavirus-vaccine-last
There are so many flaws in this. The vaccinated are still contracting and spreading Covid. They're probably the worst spreaders because a lot of them are asymptomatic.
The vaccines are leaky, meaning that the vaccinated are getting sick and the virus is mutating in a way to strengthen itself against the vaccines.
The vaccines are basically a therapeutic at this point. You're already seeing increased hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated.
Absolutely none of what you said is true. The prevalence of variants is overwhelmingly driven by the volume and duration of infections. More, longer infections = more viral replication and more incidence of chance mutations that may or may not evade prior immunity. Without question, the vaccines reduce both the incidence and duration of those infections.
Reduce, but not prevent.
That is a valid distinction when discussing the "leaky" characteristic of the vaccines.
Anytime selective pressure is applied in nature without 100% control, change can occur.
That goes for antibiotics, pesticides, GMO traits, and vaccines. This technology is not exempt for this pattern.
fightingfarmer09 said:Diyala Nick said:txaggie_08 said:GMaster0 said:
Just like the flu vaccine, these COVID vaccines have a seasonal window of duration for being effective to stop severe illness. Every person that has a symptomatic infection that spreads this thing is an opportunity to mutate and weaken the current vaccine effectiveness. What is amazing about the COVID vaccines are how they are so damn effective to stop infection period.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm#howeffective
I would argue that it is in the best interest of public health to get as many people immunized as soon possible to limit these opportunities for spread and mutation opportunity. The fuse has been lit and it is only a matter of time before we start seeing more hospitalizations even amongst previous infected or vaccinated. It is hard to gauge that timeline, but there is a timeline since the virus is endemic to the population.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/how-long-will-coronavirus-vaccine-last
There are so many flaws in this. The vaccinated are still contracting and spreading Covid. They're probably the worst spreaders because a lot of them are asymptomatic.
The vaccines are leaky, meaning that the vaccinated are getting sick and the virus is mutating in a way to strengthen itself against the vaccines.
The vaccines are basically a therapeutic at this point. You're already seeing increased hospitalizations and deaths among the vaccinated.
Absolutely none of what you said is true. The prevalence of variants is overwhelmingly driven by the volume and duration of infections. More, longer infections = more viral replication and more incidence of chance mutations that may or may not evade prior immunity. Without question, the vaccines reduce both the incidence and duration of those infections.
Reduce, but not prevent.
That is a valid distinction when discussing the "leaky" characteristic of the vaccines.
Anytime selective pressure is applied in nature without 100% control, change can occur.
That goes for antibiotics, pesticides, GMO traits, and vaccines. This technology is not exempt for this pattern.
Your bodies immune response also creates selective pressure. This is why people with compromised immune systems are catalysts for mutations.
The more primed your immune system is to fight and eliminate the virus, this less opportunity for those mutations to take place.
Duncan Idaho said:
More compelling than any I've heard from the other side.
Are people trying to persuade you not to get vaxxed? Do people judge you for getting vaxxed?
This is the "other side" on the left. Just want to leave people alone and be left alone. No one in this camp cares if you are vaxxed or not. They all have close loved ones who are vaxxed.
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